Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Paladin doesn't play at all like Warrior outside the 5 gcd spam window... Which was originally a Paladin mechanic to begin with. Its difficult for Paladin to have been designed as a "Warrior clone" when its Warrior that was redesigned to have Inner Release function similarly to Requiescat. Outside of this window (which only barely counts as a burst phase for Paladin, yet is the most important part of Warrior's rotation) these classes have an entirely different combo flow, with Paladin being much closer to a rotational class like Gunbreaker and having no actual resource management.

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While yes they fill up their beast gage though auto attacks and not finishing their 123 combo. They still have a 123 combo. They still have a beast gauge. They still have an inner release. Sure you can argue that the beast gauge is only use on defensive cooldowns and not offensive ones like Warrior and DRK.

The point I am trying to make is. Tanks only do is hit 123 123 123. Build up some type of resource and spend it. Paladin being the more unique aspect of this. As they build their resource though auto attacks and spend it on defensive abilities and not offensive like the other three. Guessing Warrior clone was not the right words for it. Yet it hard not to want to say it. As they gave both DRK and PLD beast gauge, inner release and Fell Cleave. Guessing my problem is. WAR, DRK and PLD please almost exactly the same. With very little little in between the 3 tanks.

As much as people might not want to admit it. We are just a 123 spamming. Waiting to spend our beast gauge and waiting for our cooldowns to come up. GNB is not much better. As you pretty much just build up shells and spend them. Waiting for your big cooldowns to come up as well. Tanking in this expansion is bad.

123 combo been there since 2.0, mitigation been the same since 2.0. It shouldn't have taken till 5.0 to realize that. Again WAR and DRK has a Resquiat clone. PLD has a magical phase to prevent spamming the same combo over and over.

Irony that people on this forums actually wanted Holy Spirit to cost gauge. "Because a gauge that's used only for defense is kind of dumb." Anyway Bloodspiller and Quitus should give 600 mp. The more I think about it the more I realize that DRK kit right now is straight up design to limit the amount of mana gain. I did started on the tail end of HW. So by the time I got DRK it was SB DRK, and ShB DRK feels like SB DRK with a giant boulder attached to prevent speed.

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we are already at the bottom of the tank dps list.

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Just a small note. To anyone who is commenting about DRK dps.
Being bottom dps is not as bad as people think.

It is the difference in dps that matters. For example:

E2S - 80%
PLD: 7,953.73 <-- Top
GNG: 7,941.47
WAR: 7,763.85
DRK: 7,743.42 <-- Bottom

Top - Bottom = PLD - DRK = 7,953.73 - 7,743.42 = 210.31
That difference is so small. I wouldn't bother with tank dps unless the difference was much bigger.

Another thing to note, DRK has the best single target mitigation, and is the best at magic mitigation.
If DRK mitigates well, the healers can easily cover the 200 dps difference.

Using words like bottom of dps or lowest dps can be very misleading to many. It's not wrong but, many will misunderstand it.

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Originally Posted by DemonicNeko

While yes they fill up their beast gage though auto attacks and not finishing their 123 combo. They still have a 123 combo. They still have a beast gauge. They still have an inner release. Sure you can argue that the beast gauge is only use on defensive cooldowns and not offensive ones like Warrior and DRK.

The point I am trying to make is. Tanks only do is hit 123 123 123. Build up some type of resource and spend it. Paladin being the more unique aspect of this. As they build their resource though auto attacks and spend it on defensive abilities and not offensive like the other three. Guessing Warrior clone was not the right words for it. Yet it hard not to want to say it. As they gave both DRK and PLD beast gauge, inner release and Fell Cleave. Guessing my problem is. WAR, DRK and PLD please almost exactly the same. With very little little in between the 3 tanks.

As much as people might not want to admit it. We are just a 123 spamming. Waiting to spend our beast gauge and waiting for our cooldowns to come up. GNB is not much better. As you pretty much just build up shells and spend them. Waiting for your big cooldowns to come up as well. Tanking in this expansion is bad.

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The thing is, the differences you outline in terms of how the gauge is built and spent between PLD and WAR, and how the gauge is used, translate in real gameplay terms to an actually really large difference in gameplay. Paladin ignores its gauge in raids unless necessary for mechanics, while Warrior's entire gameplay revolves around it. Holy Spirit and Fell Cleave only resemble each other at all during Requiescat and Inner Release windows, because while Fell Cleave is the reward for building your resources by doing combos, Holy Spirit should be never used outside its window. Warrior manages resources constantly, Paladin largely has no real management involved, Warrior does very little damage through combos and as such doesn't lose a lot from downtime outside inner release, Paladin can't afford to miss combos (of which it has 3 in a strict sequence) but has a much more forgiving spam phase thanks to the mobility in requiescat, Paladin has off-gcds, Warrior barely does, etc.

Paladin and Warrior are only truly homogenized in mitigation like all tanks are right now, but their DPS rotations are only superficially similar. Dark Knight could afford to be more distinct from Warrior, but Dark Knight has the foundations of an off-gcd spam class while Warrior is almost purely gcd damage, they just need to build on that, and maybe make Delirium at least a bit more distinct from Inner Release.

Another good way to illustrate how different the Paladin, Warrior and other Tanks single target rotations are is to look at the distinct Weaponskills/Spells in their rotations.

• Paladin - 7 actions: Fast Blade, Riot Blade, Goring Blade, Royal Authority, Atonement, Holy Spirit and Confiteor
• Warrior - 5 actions: Heavy Swing, Maim, Storm's Path, Storm's Eye and Fell Cleave/Inner Chaos
• Dark Knight - 4 actions: Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, Souleater and Bloodspiller
• Gunbreaker - 8 actions: Keen Edge, Brutal Shell, Solid Barrel, Burst Strike, Sonic Break, Gnashing Fang, Savage Fang and Wicked Talon

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

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Look at the selection of oGCDs that each job manages (outside of burst window buffs).

• Paladin - Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn, Intervene (3)
• Gunbreaker - Blasting Zone, Bow Shock, Rough Divide, Continuation (4)
• Warrior - Upheaval (1)
• Dark Knight - Edge/Flood, Salted Earth, Plunge, Abyssal Drain, Carve and Spit, Living Shadow (6)

The action on DRK happens as much between GCDs as it does on the GCD. Edge at 500 potency has as much impact if not more impact than most GCDs.

Also, did you seriously just count the continuation combo as three unique GCDs? The only technical difference is that you're expected to roll your face across the keyboard instead of hammering your face against a single key when it's active. Let's face the truth: Requiescat = Inner Release = Delirium = Continuation.

https://i.imgur.com/vu7XlMr.jpg

One is slightly more pretentious than the others, but that doesn't make it functionally any different.

When you look at burst windows, PLD and DRK have two, GNB either has two on a very slight technicality (given the fact that the rotation changes ever so slightly at 30 seconds vs. 60 seconds), and WAR has one. Also, DRK is really the only resource-based tank job, while the others all follow scripted rotations. So take from that what you will.

If the continuation combo doesn't count as 3 different gcd's then neither does the Chaos Thrust combo, the Solid Barrel combo, the Aeolian edge combo, or any single 123 combo in the game. The argument of "its just pressing buttons in a slightly different order" is so absurd it feels some of you all will be ready to argue that 2.0 Paladin and 5.08 Gunbreaker are identical to each other because both of them are tanks that press buttons (as opposed to tanks that do not press buttons, or are controlled using motion controls?). Continuation is a distinct mechanic from Delirium because it uses 4 button binds to execute as opposed to 1, and the number and order in which you press buttons is what every single class in FFXIV consists of. I would prefer if we kept discussion away from a logic that concludes that both Black Mage and Summoner play identically because they both do a lot of 1-1-1 spam.

I think that his point about the Continuation combo is that it isn't like the others you mentioned. Regardless of it being a poor decision or not, if i macro the Continuation combo to a single button, i can't screw it up. Because of each button triggering the next and you can't go backwards in the combo. However, without using a "wait" command, I can't achieve a single button Chaos Thrust combo for example. You have the choice to go back in the combo and it is possible to mess it up. I think this is why he doesn't really consider it to be a combo in the normal sense.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Look at the selection of oGCDs that each job manages (outside of burst window buffs).

• Paladin - Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn, Intervene (3)

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Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn and Intervene are all on roughly 30s times which roughly doubles how often they are used in a 1 minute rotation. Alongside FoF and Requiscat which are used once per minute. A Paladin is using 8 offensive ogcds per minute with 5 different buttons.

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• Gunbreaker - Blasting Zone, Bow Shock, Rough Divide, Continuation (4)

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Blasting Zone and Rough Divide are every 30s, Continuation happens 3 times every 30s, No Mercy and Bow Shock are every 60s and Bloodfest is 90s. Gunbreaker does ~12.6 ogcd every minute with 6 different buttons.

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• Warrior - Upheaval (1)

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Warrior has 3 offensive ogcds (Upheavel, Infuriate, Inner Release) and one semi-offensive ogcd (Onslaught). Upheaval is on a 30s cooldown, Infuriate is on a 30s cooldown that shortens with each Fellcleave/Inner Chaos use and Inner Release is every 90s. Onslaught is 10s but shouldn't be used offensively outside IR. Given a rough estimate of 3.5 Infurates per minute the Warrior is doing ~6.8 offensive ogcds with 3 different buttons.

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• Dark Knight - Edge/Flood, Salted Earth, Plunge, Abyssal Drain, Carve and Spit, Living Shadow (6)

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Edge/Flood are basically every 30s, Plunge is every 30s, Abyss Drain, CnS and Blood Weapon are 60s, Salted Earth and Delirium are every 90s and Living Shadow is every 120 mins. The Dark Knight uses ~8.8+ ogcds every minute with 8 different buttons.

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The action on DRK happens as much between GCDs as it does on the GCD. Edge at 500 potency has as much impact if not more impact than most GCDs.

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Most of the other tanks are doing that much also. Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn are doing 735 combined every 30s, Blasting Zone and Upheaval are 450 every 30s. DRK barely does more offensive ogcds than the Paladin even if it has more buttons dedicated to them.

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Also, did you seriously just count the continuation combo as three unique GCDs? The only technical difference is that you're expected to roll your face across the keyboard instead of hammering your face against a single key when it's active. Let's face the truth: Requiescat = Inner Release = Delirium = Continuation.

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As much as I would like the Continuation combo to be mapped to one gcd button and one ogcd button, at default, it is mapped to 3 different gcd buttons which gives a very different feel than the "press Fellcleave/Bloodspiller 5 times" bursts of WAR and DRK.

Paladin also has it's burst mapped to more than 1 gcd button (needing 1 for Holy Spirit and 1 for Confiteor) This kind of makes it distinct from the other tanks even if the effect of the burst is the same as the others.

Both the Paladin and Gunbreaker bursts feel different from the other 3 tanks which likely helps theirs distinguish them from IR.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Edge/Flood are basically every 30s

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If you're only using Edge/Flood once every 30s you're doing it very wrong.