Dark Knight Megathread

Maybe it would be too strong, but also let's not forget TBN should have some damage reduction along with the shield to be decent against multi hit attacks. Not as good as the others, but decent at least.
Paladin gets 20% + 15% + 1000 heal over time ( yes, I know its not 35% added)
GNB: 15% + 15% + 900
Warrior: 400 shield + 10% + 10% + 1600 Heal
DRK according to my post: 25% shield + 15% damage reduction + ( optional : 800 heal, you could use it or save it for maybe when you took auto attack damage, or Living Dead etc).
The damage reduction could be 10% instead of 15%. But this is a number game already, instead the idea of using less buttons to mitigate into TBN and having an ability to heal urself with at the cost of Darkside, or for free if TBN is broken, is the idea I wish to share. So that you will heal a bit whenever you want, help with Living Dead, and have a fun mechanic with your main resource.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

DRK according to my post: 25% shield + 15% damage reduction + ( optional : 800 heal, you could use it or save it for maybe when you took auto attack damage, or Living Dead etc).
The damage reduction could be 10% instead of 15%. But this is a number game already, instead the idea of using less buttons to mitigate into TBN and having an ability to heal urself with at the cost of Darkside, or for free if TBN is broken, is the idea I wish to share. So that you will heal a bit whenever you want, help with Living Dead, and have a fun mechanic with your main resource.

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You're only focusing on Dungeon performances, HoC/BW/Sheltron are far less effective vs TBN in Savage/Ultimate raids, TBN+Oblation alone are strong enough to soak a buster without a need of Rampart/Shadow Wall/Dark Mind. Damage reduction is more effective than Barriers when you're fighting multi targets, mitigation value. Single power hit, TBN dominates BW/HoC/Sheltron by miles, major sum of damage is removed. Taking TBN further on damage reductions would only lead more problems than solving casual content. You could extend cooldown, but then Drk would suck in dungeons more, and remain balanced in raids, and boosting TBN would only make Drk insanely overpowered in Raids for it's damage mitigations.

This needs to be adjusted an alternative plan than trying to competition Pld/Gnb/War ability.

I don't know what game your playing but against Heart of Corondum and its heal, TBN + Oblation are not that strong. If HoC wouldn't have a heal, than yeah.
Also I am not saying that TBN and Oblation are bad - I am saying they should be within 1 button and the reward for breaking TBN would do much better as a heal. Weaker than HoC, but tied to Darkside. So you can use a bit more of it when needed ( Living Dead or when very low), and recover after a big hit.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

You're only focusing on Dungeon performances, HoC/BW/Sheltron are far less effective vs TBN in Savage/Ultimate raids, TBN+Oblation alone are strong enough to soak a buster without a need of Rampart/Shadow Wall/Dark Mind. Damage reduction is more effective than Barriers when you're fighting multi targets, mitigation value. Single power hit, TBN dominates BW/HoC/Sheltron by miles, major sum of damage is removed. Taking TBN further on damage reductions would only lead more problems than solving casual content. You could extend cooldown, but then Drk would suck in dungeons more, and remain balanced in raids, and boosting TBN would only make Drk insanely overpowered in Raids for it's damage mitigations.

This needs to be adjusted an alternative plan than trying to competition Pld/Gnb/War ability.

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TBN is only stronger if the damage outright kills the tank, which it almost never will after mitigations are applied, even in ultimates, where other tanks often just invuln anyway.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5778466

For the purpose of discussing how well a tank can handle a tank buster, there are 3 stages.

Stage 1: Preparing for incoming damage

Stage 2: Actually taking the damage

Stage 3: Aftermath of the damage

The only stage that matters for calculating the tankiness of the job is stage 3, which leaves every single other tank in higher standing. I've said it before, in this regard, TBN is actually the weakest when not paired with another cooldown. It simply must be paired with another cooldown to compete.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

You're only focusing on Dungeon performances, HoC/BW/Sheltron are far less effective vs TBN in Savage/Ultimate raids, TBN+Oblation alone are strong enough to soak a buster without a need of Rampart/Shadow Wall/Dark Mind.

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Let's put it this way:

TBN's shield is typically estimated to ~1270 potency. Unless the added eHP matters (i.e., we'd otherwise die, which is sadly infrequent threat in this game), that mitigation provides no more sustain than does healing (as that healing wouldn't be bottlenecked unless you'd die).

:: Sustain can be split into 'max and current eHP-increases' (mitigation) or 'current HP-increases only' (healing), but mitigation is only as uniquely advantageous as it manages to prevent healing (or healing opportunities) from being wasted -- be that by overhealing or death. If the healing isn't bottlenecked by maximum health nor falling short of minimum eHP at any particular point, they provide the same sustain (i.e., will keep you alive for the same time).
Percentile, as compared to potency-based, mitigation has its own limitations, in that its relative (or potency-equivalent) value is dependent on incoming damage, but that's the crux of it all.

For TBN+Oblation to outperform HoC, the latter's extra 20% mitigation in seconds 0-4 and extra 5% mitigation across seconds 5-8 (though offset by doing 10% less in seconds 9-10 relative to Oblation) would have to amount to less than ~370 potency of shielding. Generally, the most we can hope for is that TBN's added frequency might provide more mitigation per minute in spikey (but not so spikey as to favor HoC's 30% miti periods) but ultimately low-damage-taken-per-minute situations.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

TBN is only stronger if the damage outright kills the tank, which it almost never will after mitigations are applied, even in ultimates, where other tanks often just invuln anyway.

The only stage that matters for calculating the tankiness of the job is stage 3, which leaves every single other tank in higher standing. I've said it before, in this regard, TBN is actually the weakest when not paired with another cooldown. It simply must be paired with another cooldown to compete.

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Oblation is another cooldown, I didn't say TBN alone.

TBN+ (Damage miti extra) and Oblation is incredibly strong if this is the suggested fix. And it's not about surviving the damage, it's mitigating much as possible through out the whole fight and using other tank cooldowns for the initial auto attacks. Invulns are better used on cheesing mechanics than busters, the value difference is enormous, both Tank and Healer. Many years in Savage raids, Invulns cheesing mechanics has always earned far better value.

In Ultimates you only use Invulns for busters to free up cooldowns, there's nothing to cheese with them. Except for TEA, 1 tank soak double busters from Pepsiman, and the 2nd tank does the same, keeping them near permanently stacked.

Another point, TBN can cheese one current raid tier mechanic, P4S Part 2, Act 2, Blm can solo the Fire Stack with TBN + Manaward, or AOE mitis + Manaward. Possibly more can be discovered. I've always been extremely against TBN buffs just to feel stronger for dungeons, it's one ability that can push lengths shouldn't be possible max ilvl gear, not even HoC/Intervention/Nascent can do.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

I've always been extremely against TBN buffs just to feel stronger for dungeons, it's one ability that can push lengths shouldn't be possible max ilvl gear, not even HoC/Intervention/Nascent can do.

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While there's nothing inherent to AoE damage that'd make TBN worse (such is merely a matter of DTPS) and I wouldn't want to see TBN remain as large a portion of our (presently undertuned) kit as it is now and so would prefer to buff other areas and means of sustain... the external mitigation cheese available to TBN has no serious relevance to dungeons.

I see no reason why DRK would have to be shortchanged of a personal tack-on effect or the like just because its external mitigation can, very rarely, have outsized benefits due to debuff nullification or the like. I love the latter element of TBN and wouldn't want to sacrifice it, but... neither would anything that'd make DRK's kit stronger in dungeons require that we sacrifice it, so...

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Oblation is another cooldown, I didn't say TBN alone.

TBN+ (Damage miti extra) and Oblation is incredibly strong if this is the suggested fix. And it's not about surviving the damage, it's mitigating much as possible through out the whole fight and using other tank cooldowns for the initial auto attacks. Invulns are better used on cheesing mechanics than busters, the value difference is enormous, both Tank and Healer. Many years in Savage raids, Invulns cheesing mechanics has always earned far better value.

In Ultimates you only use Invulns for busters to free up cooldowns, there's nothing to cheese with them. Except for TEA, 1 tank soak double busters from Pepsiman, and the 2nd tank does the same, keeping them near permanently stacked.

Another point, TBN can cheese one current raid tier mechanic, P4S Part 2, Act 2, Blm can solo the Fire Stack with TBN + Manaward, or AOE mitis + Manaward. Possibly more can be discovered. I've always been extremely against TBN buffs just to feel stronger for dungeons, it's one ability that can push lengths shouldn't be possible max ilvl gear, not even HoC/Intervention/Nascent can do.

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You're getting into semantics now and discussing purely conjecture which has nothing to do with the objective state of the job and its kit. I also know you didn't say TBN alone, the math listed in the linked post by yours truly was all considering using TBN with Oblation.

This suggestion was also about combining Oblation with TBN, so you would not be capable of stacking this TNB+ with Oblation because with this proposition Oblation doesn't actually exist, so I'm not really sure what you're on about there.

Cheesing mechanics is a different discussion and arguably shouldn't be plausible in the first place for game balancing, and is therefore also conjecture.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While there's nothing inherent to AoE damage that'd make TBN worse (such is merely a matter of DTPS) and I wouldn't want to see TBN remain as large a portion of our (presently undertuned) kit as it is now and so would prefer to buff other areas and means of sustain... the external mitigation cheese available to TBN has no serious relevance to dungeons.

I see no reason why DRK would have to be shortchanged of a personal tack-on effect or the like just because its external mitigation can, very rarely, have outsized benefits due to debuff nullification or the like. I love the latter element of TBN and wouldn't want to sacrifice it, but... neither would anything that'd make DRK's kit stronger in dungeons require that we sacrifice it, so...

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Yeah I mean I would much rather see Dark Mind turned into something useful in all content than a TBN total rework, but it's also not to say a TBN rework can make the jobs defensive kit feel better as well. On this we agree, but it's also poor debate to outright refuse a viable fix just because we don't want it. TBN is nice, I'd like it implemented better, but if it was reworked into something new, then so be it, a fix is necessary either way.

Drk has no identity atm and that gives the devs nothing to work with. The how and what we should be is lost. They keep trying to form us like Warrior and a Paladin, that concept makes us a caster tank. Why not change our skills to work on the principle?

Living Dead
Level: 50
Instant
300 seconds
N/A
0
0
Grants the effect of Living Dead. When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO\\'d, your status will change to Walking Dead.
Living Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. If 100% is not restored, you will be KO\\'d.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

Salted Earth
Level: 52
Instant
45 seconds
N/A
0
5
Creates a patch of salted earth at your feet, dealing unaspected damage with a potency of 50 to any enemies who enter.
Duration: 15s

Abyssal Drain
Level: 56
Ability
1.5 sec channel
Charge: 20 max 3 stacks
Mana: N/A
Range: 20 yalms
Radius: 0 yalms
Deals life draining damage with a potency of 250.
Additional Effect: Restores own HP
Cure Potency: 200
Additional Effect: Restores MP
Mana Restoration: 1200
Combo Action: Living Dead
Combo Effect: Reverse Drain
Combo Bonus: Restores own HPS
Combo Cure Potency: 1200
Combo additional effect: Restores MP
Mana Restoration: 200
Combo Action: Salted Earth
Combo Effect: Abyssal Drain is now AoE
Combo Potency: 150
Combo Mana Restoration: 300 per target

TBN
Level: 70
Instant
15 seconds
3000
30 yalms
0
Creates a barrier around target that absorbs damage totaling 25% of target\\'s maximum HP.
Duration: 7s
Grants Dark Arts when barrier is completely absorbed.
Dark Arts Effect: Consume Dark Arts instead of MP to execute Edge of Shadow or Flood of Shadow
Bonus Effect: Lingering Shadow
Lingering Shadow: Heals for 200 HPS over 21 secs

Oblation
Level: 82
Instant
60 seconds
N/A
30 yalms
0 yalms
Erects a magicked barrier around self or target party member that absorbs damage equivalent to a heal of 400 potency.
Additional Effect: Grants 5 stacks of
Oblation
Duration: 15s
When the barrier is completely absorbed, a stack of Oblation is consumed and a new barrier is applied.
When the effect duration expires, a Abyssal drain effect is then applied.
Abyssal Drain Heal Potency: 200 per remaining stack of Oblation
Abyssal Drain Mana Potency: 600 per remaining stack of Oblation


Salt and Darkness
Level 86
Ability
20 seconds
N/A
0 yalms
0 yalms

All enemies standing in the corrupted patch of Salted Earth take additional unaspected damage with a potency of 250 for the first enemy, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.

※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.

Trait
Enhanced TBN
Level 84

When consumed, TBN now grants Lingering Shadow Effect.
When not consumed, TBN returns 50% of the casting cost.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Cheesing mechanics is a different discussion and arguably shouldn't be plausible in the first place for game balancing, and is therefore also conjecture.

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Tangent, but...

I'd rather have some cheese (or, "features") here and there, so long as such doesn't pushing out more interesting decision-making. E.g., Inner Release lining up to prevent a knockback (or murder your party in O6S), TBN cheese, Cover cheese, and hopefully GNB getting something in turn.

(Invulns, contextually, do push out more interesting decision-making or overly disarm fights for having not been sufficiently accounted for, though, so that's another story.)