Highly Notorious Monsters

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Originally Posted by Exn

That's not even including all the real life things you could be doing in between windows (as I already said cooking dinner, washing clothes, TV!). It's your own fault you sat there twiddling your thumbs.

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To quote you, that statement explains a lot. It's cool that, apparently, washing clothes, watching tv and cooking dinner are the apex of your real life activities outside your job. Unfortunately, it seems, mine actually require my attention.

Under the circumstances, I presume it will be impossible for you to understand how much I abhor the idea of having to spend the portion of actual free time that I've alloted to playing a game staring at the screen waiting for a pop. It might be better to just refer you back to FFXI and wish you good hunting---eh, camping.

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Originally Posted by Miliant

To quote you, that statement explains a lot. It's cool that, apparently, washing clothes, watching tv and cooking dinner are the apex of your real life activities outside your job. Unfortunately, it seems, mine actually require my attention.

Under the circumstances, I presume it will be impossible for you to understand how much I abhor the idea of having to spend the portion of actual free time that I've alloted to playing a game staring at the screen waiting for a pop. It might be better to just refer you back to FFXI and wish you good hunting---eh, camping.

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Your attempt at a personal attack wasn't warranted, as I never suggested chores are the apex of my or anyone else's life. I was only suggesting things one could do instead of staring at the screen, which you still appear to be unable to understand.

I will presume it will also be impossible for you to understand my sentiment, as you seem to be rooted to your desk chair as soon as you login into FF, unable to perform any other basic functions than point-and-click until the time for your allocated gaming session of the day concludes. Therefore, to each his/her own.

Im pretty sure he or she was talking about things while PLAYING the game. SE doesn't care what we do for jobs in rl. This casual stuff is killing good games and will eventually kill huge names in the business if it keeps up.

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Originally Posted by Miliant

To quote you, that statement explains a lot. It's cool that, apparently, washing clothes, watching tv and cooking dinner are the apex of your real life activities outside your job. Unfortunately, it seems, mine actually require my attention.

Under the circumstances, I presume it will be impossible for you to understand how much I abhor the idea of having to spend the portion of actual free time that I've alloted to playing a game staring at the screen waiting for a pop. It might be better to just refer you back to FFXI and wish you good hunting---eh, camping.

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Originally Posted by Miliant

To quote you, that statement explains a lot. It's cool that, apparently, washing clothes, watching tv and cooking dinner are the apex of your real life activities outside your job. Unfortunately, it seems, mine actually require my attention.

Under the circumstances, I presume it will be impossible for you to understand how much I abhor the idea of having to spend the portion of actual free time that I've alloted to playing a game staring at the screen waiting for a pop. It might be better to just refer you back to FFXI and wish you good hunting---eh, camping.

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Then don't camp it no one is forcing you to. For those of us who enjoy it we will gladly camp it. You can run raids with your time or solo some quest, or solo with a bunch of other in a FATE.

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Ah, that statement explains alot.. I think I'm done here.

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What exactly does that explain?

If you're trying to imply that I don't really know what it's like to fight HNMs, you'd be wrong. I've battled and beaten every single world spawn HNM in the game, with the sole exception of dark ixion, which wasn't really ever camped in the first place (because it was such a PITA to do so).

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Hmm really? I seem to recall manaburn limit pts with my LS in between Cerbs windows.. And doing Limit pts and FoV in between Ada's... And catching/killing Rapido while waiting on KV's weather... And farming bugs for gil and running ppl up the mountain in the Chasm in between Tia'

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Your LS would be the first I've ever heard to do this.

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waiting on KV weather != waiting for spawn windows. You can easily end up waiting a lot longer than what a faf/nid/etc spawn window lasts.

Cerb windows are 1 hour, not 30 minutes. It's a bit more reasonable to do stuff in an hour.

Beyond that, most of my comments refer to the old days of FFXI: before things like FOV etc. existed. It's super convenient that things like that got slapped down right next to where ada spawns. So if they implemented old school HNMs in XIV, I guess I wouldn't do them unless they put EXP quest NPCs right next to the spawn point (which would be really silly).

Oh, and tiamat is a 3-5 day spawn with 30 minute windows. Actually camping every one of those windows while doing stuff in between them for up to 48 hours straight kind of screams "no-lifer." I'm sorry, but that's really stretching the realm of believability right there. If they actually made HNM in XIV with that kind of spawn delays I would march over to SE hedquarters and find out whose idea it was and give them a taste of my medicine. Fortunately, I don't expect that to happen.

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Originally Posted by Exn

Your attempt at a personal attack wasn't warranted, as I never suggested chores are the apex of my or anyone else's life. I was only suggesting things one could do instead of staring at the screen, which you still appear to be unable to understand.

I will presume it will also be impossible for you to understand my sentiment, as you seem to be rooted to your desk chair as soon as you login into FF, unable to perform any other basic functions than point-and-click until the time for your allocated gaming session of the day concludes. Therefore, to each his/her own.

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No attack was intended. I was just pointing out that among the things I have to do during the day, chores amount to a relatively unimportant part.

I usually play at night, and by the time I sit down and run a game I'm done with everything for the day. So when I do sit down to play, I want to actually play the game, not run it in the background while I do something else.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Then don't camp it no one is forcing you to. For those of us who enjoy it we will gladly camp it. You can run raids with your time or solo some quest, or solo with a bunch of other in a FATE.

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And there's why I'm against FFXI HNM mechanics. Why should we not be able to camp it due to the window being unnecessarily long? What's the point?

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So when I do sit down to play, I want to actually play the game, not run it in the background while I do something else.

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40000 times this. There is seriously no good reason to have lengthy spawn windows. Have the NM pop or not within a reasonable amount of time. It is not reasonable, nor is it healthy, to require players to camp a single NM for hours at a time.

Big scary difficult monsters roaming the world that are so dangerous that they'll always be up when you look for them are fine.

Slow pops and pop windows are not fine.

The thrill of the FIGHT should be where the thrill comes from.

HNMs in old FFXI were fun at first but became unfun when the fights became trivial and the whole thing was all about the claim. I want a thrilling battle with scary NMs that will run around killing everyone if people can't stop them.

Thats just it. Who said you had to camp this for so many hours? If you dont want a chance at a sweet drop than dont go. We all know they will shorten the timers so that all HNM's will pop once a day. But even if there is a few 1-2 day spawns im pretty sure SE isnt going to demand you to camp them and they never really twisted any arms in ffxi. You make the call if you want to camp something dont go rain on parades just because you dont like something.

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Who said you had to camp this for so many hours? If you dont want a chance at a sweet drop than dont go.

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I shouldn't be locked out of a sweet drop if I'm not willing to NOT play the game for 2-3 hours straight.

There is no reason why it has to be designed that way. Make the fight challenging, instead of making the challenge a test of patience and waiting. Why can't the fight itself be just as if not more thrilling than the "win the lottery" thrill of being the first one out of 100 people to hit a certain key on your keyboard?

It seems people define "HNM" by how long you have to wait to kill it, not how notorious or threatening the NM actually is.

I want the HNMs to be more about the HNM itself rather than the waiting game. Waiting is not a challenge. Beating people to the pull is not a challenge, it is luck (assuming no cheating).

The people advocating for the old style of HNMs from way back in the day are looking for the thrill of the competition. But FFXI HNMs were competition in the most shallow form possible. There are a LOT of other ways to have competition in an MMO that would be far more interesting.

Couldn't agree more with Alhanelem and Miliant.
I never understood how anyone could get more fun out of CLAIMING a mob instead of the actual BEATING.
It's only because of unnessecarily long waiting times. And it's just so much wasted time standing around for hours upon hours.
Also, please stop saying "if you don't like it, don't play it."
My opinion is as valuable as yours, and if I enjoy a game I want to enjoy it fully, not only a few parts.
If something I'm interested in (HNMs) is implemented, why am I not allowed to state that I hate the way they were in FFXI and that I'd rather see them do it differently in FFXIV?

Like I said before though, I like having certain spawning conditions for them (and small NMs too).
Waiting for a few minutes until it's morning/the weather changes/etc. is no big deal.
Waiting for hours is, though.

It's just... it blows my mind on so many levels that anybody thinks wait times are the whole reason HNMs are fun/interesting... it's like the only area of any game in existence where I've seen people want it to take forever and be easy instead of not waiting and having it be a challenge...

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Like I said before though, I like having certain spawning conditions for them (and small NMs too).
Waiting for a few minutes until it's morning/the weather changes/etc. is no big deal.
Waiting for hours is, though.

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You're so good at saying what I'm trying to say in a lot less words. lol :D

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

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Originally Posted by VitoScaletta

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive,[...]

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But that's just not very good game design.
If you want certain items to be and STAY really exclusive and valuable, you should do so by making the fight itsself hard, not the way people can try it.
Or by only making materials drop which have to be gathered from different HNMs AND be combined by a high lvl crafter.
There are so many ways to make items exclusive, why use the laziest (for the developer) and most riddiculous (for the player) way?

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Originally Posted by VitoScaletta

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

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Drop rates, my friend, drop rates. Or force pops that aren't easy to obtain.

Also, this is less about the time it takes from one spawn to the next and more about the time you end up waiting even when you know it's coming. A 24 hour NM that just pops every 24 hours is fine. A 24 hour NM where you have to wait for 3 hours, checking every 30 minutes, for it to pop or not pop is NOT fine.

the "3 kings" in FFXI were changed to force pops. Since these force pops were tied to 99 kindred seal BCNMs, they were not exactly in huge abundance, and the drops from the HNMs actually became more rare as a result. You don't have to have spawn windows or huge wait times to keep an item relatively rare.

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If you want certain items to be and STAY really exclusive and valuable, you should do so by making the fight itsself hard,

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This.

The hard mode rivenroad fight is a good example. Not everyone could beat that- so even though you could challenge it as much as you wanted, you didn't see every single player running around with white ravens on.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I shouldn't be locked out of a sweet drop if I'm not willing to NOT play the game for 2-3 hours straight.

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I beg to differ. And since we seem to fundamentally disagree, I doubt we'll find much common ground here.

Your comments earlier, for me, just further suggest you had very little experience with HNMs in XI, especially that one about Ixion. (but then again I guess every server is different..). I never mentioned Ixion/SW because they didn't use the traditional pop windows, and actually did have the need to stay alert over a few hours to camp. If that wasn't your cup of tea, no one ever forced you to do it. I never got anything personally from Ixion the entire time i was with my shell, and only one drop from SW, and still loved every minute of the content. Those fights were very rewarding and I enjoyed the hunt throughout multiple zones scanning horizons with other shells hoping to be the first ones when it pops.

I don't enjoy leveling crafting, sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task with very little or no risk. I'd rather no levels in crafts cause the leveling process IMO is just pointless. I however don't think that content should be removed from the game because I don't enjoy crafting. I don't enjoy quest based solo leveling because I feel it defeats the purpose of an MMO. It encourages solo play all the way to endgame IMO, and you miss out on more enriched leveling experience, a poor setup for endgame since you won't be soloing that.. I however don't think that content should be removed from the game because I don't enjoy quest based leveling.

Don't worry, I know you still don't get it.

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I beg to differ. And since we seem to fundamentally disagree, I doubt we'll find much common ground here.

Your comments earlier, for me, just further suggest you had very little experience with HNMs in XI,

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I have EXTENSIVE experience with every HNM except DI. I've been to dozens and dozens of 3kings kills. I know what it's like to fight an HNM. And my point stands. You don't know me, so you are in no position to say how much or little experience I have.

You're right. We fundamentally disagree and there is no common ground. However there can still be plenty of understanding.

As I explained in my last post. Mere waiting does not have to govern who gets what. There are many other ways (better ways) to handle it. HNMs were a poorly designed system in their original state. Yes, they did the job of making rare stuff rare. That's fine. But they did a horrible job of making endgame content actually fun. It is beyond my comprehension why you would think half a dozen 30 minute spawn windows is good game design. There is no good reason for it.

Fafnir and friends weren't even particularly hard when they were newer. I want rare gear to be rare because the fights are hard to beat, not because 100 other people are standing in a room trying to be the first one to press their provoke button.

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Don't worry, I know you still don't get it.

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Don't worry, I know you still don't get it either.

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I don't enjoy leveling crafting, sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task with very little or no risk.

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To me, the typical HNM camp in FFXI was just as mindless. Sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task (doing nothing) with very little or no risk. What do spawn windows do to make the gear more rare? Nothing. Even if the spawn windows never existed, and it was a flat once a day spawn, around the same number of rare drops would exist.

Seriously- what risk was there in pulling HNMs? Only a few of them were ever challenging, and those weren't the most heavily camped for the most part.

It just plain baffles me why people would rather the challenge being the lucky guy to win the clam instead of the one to survive the challenging battle.

This all ignores cheating by the way. And cheating at HNMs was fairly common. the most likely reason the system was changed in the first place was to eliminate the impact of claim bots and cheat tools.

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however don't think that content should be removed from the game because I don't enjoy crafting.

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Well its a good thing I'm not proposing anything to be removed from the game, considering we don't have HNM yet or this thread wouldn't exist.

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I never mentioned Ixion/SW because they didn't use the traditional pop windows, and actually did have the need to stay alert over a few hours to camp. If that wasn't your cup of tea, no one ever forced you to do it.

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to me, those NMs were actually better designed. The only reason I never did Dark Ixion is because the HNM LS i had for years had broken just before it came out. And, for obvious reasons, I chose not to pursue another one and instead joined an LS focused on other endgame events.

The waiting sucked thats for sure but its a system they can definitely build on and make better. I just dont want to see every lvl 50 with a Ridill running around. Gotta keep the rarity and the thrill involved.

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Originally Posted by schism

The waiting sucked thats for sure but its a system they can definitely build on and make better. I just dont want to see every lvl 50 with a Ridill running around. Gotta keep the rarity and the thrill involved.

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As I said, there's plenty of ways to offer rare prizes without making people stand around and do nothing for several hours a day.

Can't we come up with a more engaging way to offer rare gear? Cant we design HNMs such that they are a fun experience and hard to get items from because they're challenging not because of luck?

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Originally Posted by VitoScaletta

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

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You mean like the 100% drop rate White Ravens?

We can only hope they can.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

As I said, there's plenty of ways to offer rare prizes without making people stand around and do nothing for several hours a day.

Can't we come up with a more engaging way to offer rare gear? Cant we design HNMs such that they are a fun experience and hard to get items from because they're challenging not because of luck?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

to me, those NMs were actually better designed. The only reason I never did Dark Ixion is because the HNM LS i had for years had broken just before it came out. And, for obvious reasons, I chose not to pursue another one and instead joined an LS focused on other endgame events.

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So now the HNM that you actually did have to sit around and stare for 2-3 hours are the ones that are better designed? When you just said your not willing to have to sit around for 2-3 hours....? Yet the window system which actually gives you breaks is the subpar system given your logic?? Ok, can't argue with crazy. To each his/her own.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

You mean like the 100% drop rate White Ravens?

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Exactly, that noone gave a crap about..

Gimme strider boots over white ravens any and every day of the week...

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Originally Posted by Warlock

You mean like the 100% drop rate White Ravens?

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I'd say those are pretty exclusive. No new player from here on will ever have them, and not every current player was able to obtain them either.

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So now the HNM that you actually did have to sit around and stare for 2-3 hours are the ones that are better designed?

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No... because as you said yourself, you had to be active- you had to be looking for them to find them. Not standing in one spot for hours at a time. Also, Dark Ixion couldn't even be claimed by normal means. You had to have a special item to fight him. This makes him a lot different from your typical HNM.

As I've said several times within the span of a few posts. There are lots of ways we can create big scary world spawn monsters and have them drop rare items without it being an AFK-for-29.5-of-30-minutes provoke lottery. People are just clinging to the old systems because that's what they've always known and for some reason i still don't understand, they find being afk for hours thrilling.

I'd honestly like to see more stuff like AV and pandy warden... just not quite as cryptic and somewhat conceivable to beat at the level cap they were introduced at.

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Yet the window system which actually gives you breaks is the subpar system given your logic??

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It's the 30 seconds of suspense between each window that gives you a break from the monotony of absolutely nothing happening, not the other way around. I don't see the 30 minutes between each spawn window as a "break." It's not like I'd been working hard in the 30 seconds of anticipation of the pop or working hard walking to the dragon's aery.

Camping is the problem with HNMs need to remove that and I think it will fix 99% of the compaints about it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'd say those are pretty exclusive. No new player from here on will ever have them, and not every current player was able to obtain them either.

No... because as you said yourself, you had to be active- you had to be looking for them to find them. Not standing in one spot for hours at a time. Also, Dark Ixion couldn't even be claimed by normal means. You had to have a special item to fight him. This makes him a lot different from your typical HNM.

As I've said several times within the span of a few posts. There are lots of ways we can create big scary world spawn monsters and have them drop rare items without it being an AFK-for-29.5-of-30-minutes provoke lottery. People are just clinging to the old systems because that's what they've always known and for some reason i still don't understand, they find being afk for hours thrilling.

I'd honestly like to see more stuff like AV and pandy warden... just not quite as cryptic and somewhat conceivable to beat at the level cap they were introduced at.

It's the 30 seconds of suspense between each window that gives you a break from the monotony of absolutely nothing happening, not the other way around. I don't see the 30 minutes between each spawn window as a "break." It's not like I'd been working hard in the 30 seconds of anticipation of the pop or working hard walking to the dragon's aery.

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See your still missing your own quote. You said 'you should not be locked out of a reward if you can not play the game for 2-3 hours straight.'. Regardless of the fact that your active, it's still 2-3 hours, as are many events in XI, including just some simple leveling. But as you said, since you don't have that kind of time, that kind of content shouldn't be provided. And I would disagree.

I do however agree that the 30-60secs at the window was the suspense for those HNM that were on that system, which is why I explained in detail all the things that we (and others who'd rather not just simply twiddle thumbs)did in between those windows. We're just going in circles and it's late for me.... so... yeah..

I miss HNM's but I hated standing around every day when I logged on at one camp, maayybbee to move to another camp assuming something even popped up that day. Yea sandworm and ixion kept people on the move but too heavily botted. But logging on to stand around while I play something else to pass the time till windows wasn't really fun to me. I had more fun with things like farming and Einherjar

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Except now the current claiming system makes it so first party to get hate or attack gets drop, also right now with the current system bots wont become prevalent until well after 2.0 Lets be honest the XI claim wars were all about the most sophisticated bot. No they need HNM that are not about claiming but are about the skill and challenge of defeating them.

HNM will only work if you can farm X and Y item turn them in for Z item and use Z item to pop NQ and A+B item from NQ drop to pop HQ

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I'm all for force-spawn NMs like the WSNMs and Hakutaku, but if they bring back the Key Item system from Abyssea I'll be peeved.

I want HNMs, though. I consider myself semi-casual. I don't go too nuts over maxing stats, but I do spend a lot of time in-game. My biggest fear from this standpoint is missing out on a bit of lore or a cool cutscene if a challenge was too hard. Thankfully, at least in 1.0, nearly all of the story content was presented in casual-friendly challenges, while the more hardcore content only had at most an intro cutscene.

A prime example is the difference between In for Garuda Wakening and Taming the Tempest: the former (mini-Garuda) is difficult on a level appropriate for its place in the Seventh Umbral Era storyline, just like Sinspawn Genais's difficulty is appropriate for its occurrence in FFX. The latter Garuda (Hard version) provides an extra challenge to anyone wanting to defeat her at her strongest, but has no real bearing on the story's progression. Likewise, Catastrophe from FFX is a much stronger pallet swap of Sinspawn Genais, but is an optional boss unlocked at the Monster Arena.

I guess to paraphrase my point, I would hate to see Eorzea's wondrous and intricate lore closed off to players who don't have the time nor patience for hardcore linkshells, and HNMs (and hard versions of fights) are great ways to provide challenges without putting unnecessary mountains in the way of completing the story.

Edit: I really need to stop writing essay-long posts knowing full well nobody but the mods read them.

I pay for a game, then it is my right as a paying customer to play the game at my time schedule, not some in-game time schedule. You don't have to wait 12 hrs at a laundry-mat just because someone else used the super-wash machine, do you?

There should be no waiting time for any HNM to pop. Give those HNMs a pre-conditon, like Iffy and other primals fights, where you are required to hand in a certain item. Let the players pick when we like to start the fight.

Concerns about everyone walking around with a certain unique item is moot, all SE needs to do is give it a low drop rate, or make the battle harder.

jc

just make ALL NM's like FATE then everyone can help kill it get tokens if you win then you good to go. group claim gameplay is is old now the groups will just have the rest of the LS healing from the out side is pointless might as well make it a big event when the NM pops. if you get a general thing like the tokens you wont have problems getting stuff done because it will always be worth while to help someone.

random drops and drops you dont or doubles of equip you cant sell or trade is a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I'm not a fan of open world NM's because it encourages unfair play, abuse, MPK and botting.

BCNM or pop item bosses I'm good with though.

As I've said in other thread if they have huge open world NM's they should make it public content, similar to what GW2 is doing.

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people will do it anyways. botting is coming back 100%, just look at all the crafting bots in V1.

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See your still missing your own quote. You said 'you should not be locked out of a reward if you can not play the game for 2-3 hours straight.'. Regardless of the fact that your active, it's still 2-3 hours

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Um, you didn't read my quote correctly:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I shouldn't be locked out of a sweet drop if I'm not willing to NOT play the game for 2-3 hours straight.

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I'm totally willing to play the game for 2-3 hours straight. I'm NOT willing to be AFK for 2-3 hours to fight an HNM like you generally were for HNMs like fafnir/adamantoise/behemoth. (please go back and read it if you think I modified it- I only highlighted the word NOT for you, because it makes all the difference)

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But as you said, since you don't have that kind of time, that kind of content shouldn't be provided. And I would disagree.

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I never said that, and I do have that kind of time. I'm NOT stating that HNM content shouldn't be provided. I'm saying that HNM content where the HNM has several hours worth of 30 minute spawn windows instead of just popping when it's due shouldn't be provided. This is not a casual vs hardcore issue. I can play the game all day. I do NOT however want to spend several hours of my play time idle waiting for an NM to pop when I know it's ToD. Windows shouldn't even exist, but if they do they should be short, not half an hour. Anything more than 5 minutes is just needless waiting for no good reason, but arbitrary wait times in general are not fun. Making it so you have to wait forever to play certain content is not the only, nor is it the best, way to make valuable drops rare.

HNMs are fine- shitty, antiquated mechanics are not. If you read my whole posts instead of locking your mind onto that one quote that you misread, you'd understand my position a lot better.

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people will do it anyways. botting is coming back 100%, just look at all the crafting bots in V1.

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Saying that eliminating cheating is a hopeless endeavor is not much of a reason to retain an exploitable and already unpleasant anyway mechanic.

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Originally Posted by indira

just make ALL NM's like FATE then everyone can help kill it get tokens if you win then you good to go. group claim gameplay is is old now the groups will just have the rest of the LS healing from the out side is pointless might as well make it a big event when the NM pops. if you get a general thing like the tokens you wont have problems getting stuff done because it will always be worth while to help someone.
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Other MMO's have tried this (namely Guild Wars 2) and nobody finds it very interesting/fun. If you try it you see its more of a mob scenario rather than ANY strategy involved. I liked the conversation about Dark Ixion and SW, those were really interesting ways to spawn/camp an HNM. I think we're all starting to think the camping part isn't fun- for some of us it is! If the NM wasn't cornered into a small spot on a map it could be really cool to have your LS running around on the hunt.

The other thing is if we had two options one which would be the old-school 21-24 hr camping method, the other a spawned pop like hakutaku/zipacna which you could do once a week. I think this solves both parties problems, and you can get the best of both worlds if you like!

I think what indira was trying to explain was that it could help make drops more evenly distributed; while also giving people a fair chance at gathering "tokens" to be used towards a piece of gear or weapon they really want.

Honestly, right now I love the idea for FATE but perhaps what has people worried is how some high level LS could potentially figure out ways to manipulate the FATE mob (similar to the annoying methods devised for claiming the Magiteks during the Garlean invasion events).

And no, I completely disagree with bringing back the old school 21-24 hour pop style from FFXI... the amount of crap I saw in the game just because of this method actually made me quit the HNMLS scene for a GOOD while. Plus, that will ruin 2.0 on SEVERAL levels.

The O-Hat run method of spawning Hakutaku was always a great idea in my book cuz you farmed or crafted the pieces for the spawn. It had the elements of "your effort, your friends, your drop."

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

I think what indira was trying to explain was that it could help make drops more evenly distributed; while also giving people a fair chance at gathering "tokens" to be used towards a piece of gear or weapon they really want.

Honestly, right now I love the idea for FATE but perhaps what has people worried is how some high level LS could potentially figure out ways to manipulate the FATE mob (similar to the annoying methods devised for claiming the Magiteks during the Garlean invasion events).
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Just throwing this out there, Yoshi-P stated that FATE mobs will NOT be claimable. That means you could have, for instance, 90 people fighting fafnir. This leads to 0 skill being demonstrated just button mashing, death, respawn close and run back, you never even need a tank. Yes you get your own loot pool but at the expense of any strategy or skill needed. Additionally if it were a FATE mob you wouldn't need a linkshell, just a bunch of people wanting to button smash. Then you get your item and you're on your merry way.

Half the fun in fighting big mobs is HELPING others get item x, not just you getting item y. Being a bit selfish aren't we?

It seems like the majority of the player base who has experienced HNMs is leaning towards forced pops? The rest want a newer system, but still seem to be shy on force pop HNM. I think it comes down to- do you want to help others get items, or just yourself?

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think we're all starting to think the camping part isn't fun- for some of us it is! If the NM wasn't cornered into a small spot on a map it could be really cool to have your LS running around on the hunt.

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The few examples of where camping an NM required you to be actively playing the game are the few examples where camping was actually good. But I'm speaking for the bulk of HNMs in XI where all you did was go to his spawn point, go AFK, and check every 30 minutes to see if it pops or not.

For most of the camps, most people did not enjoy the actual camping process. The only exciting moments are 1) the rush that occurs as the NM pops and you scramble to get it and 2) the rush of fighting the NM itself (to me, by far the most important part). You can have these things without stupid nonesense like 30 minute random spawn windows.

Honestly, if you love sitting at a mob's spawn for a few hours waiting for it to pop, I think you should stick to FFXI or another MMO of its era, and let FFXIV try to implement it in a different way that's less about not playing the game and more about actually playing it.

FFXI isn't going away anytime real soon, considering another expansion is on the way. The games are different enough for both to keep running and both to have a distinct player base.

I know some people are going to react that "go play another game" isn't a good argument. But, in case it matters, I'm playing that other game right now. I may even keep both subs running for a while. There are things about both games I like, and sometimes I'll want to play one and sometimes the other.

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Originally Posted by Blackpearlguy

Half the fun in fighting big mobs is HELPING others get item x, not just you getting item y. Being a bit selfish aren't we?

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Oh the joys of gearing up your asshole leet leader

I guess if your LS leader is a dick lol.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Oh the joys of gearing up your asshole leet leader

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I hear whining how boring FF14 is, cause everyone wanna solo!
I hear people say how awesome the community was in XI
I hear people from XI say they dont wanna do HNM together with anyone else. Just their little leet group of people who know how to do tactics. And how boring it is to do things together with the Community. It just turns everything to button mashing.
so i wonder....why do you want HNMs in open world anyways?
Just make everything instanced, so you dont have to meet the rest of the community...

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Originally Posted by Radacci

I hear whining how boring FF14 is, cause everyone wanna solo!
I hear people say how awesome the community was in XI
I hear people from XI say they dont wanna do HNM together with anyone else. Just their little leet group of people who know how to do tactics. And how boring it is to do things together with the Community. It just turns everything to button mashing.
so i wonder....why do you want HNMs in open world anyways?
Just make everything instanced, so you dont have to meet the rest of the community...

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying.. You aren't always going to run around with your linkshell, sometimes you'll want to do other things! This is when FATE will work really great, say that Empire x is attacking empire y and it's up to those who are logged on to help fight these battles across the entire world. Gives that player a little attack/defend/NM fight with random community members while gaining exp. From the FATE event you could form an exp/instance/quest party.

HNM needs to have there own distinctive value (what makes them different and interesting), having to dispatch a number of lesser mobs to get a special item before popping the mega mob seems like a good but old system (Maybe for lesser NMs ie Leaping Lizzy). Interactive camping like Dark Ixion and SW from FFXI would work, because you'd need to skill and coordination just to fight, and then the fight itself would hopefully be extremely hard.

In others defense don't mind me i'm a bias former FFXI player, however I have also played Tera/WoW/GW2/PW/SWtor and saw the glaringly obvious mistakes that have occurred by making everything instanced and so you can run through a world without even interacting with others in it. Excuse the essay, I just think this will be a big part of endgame which will be VERY important to our playerbase and deserves contributions by those of us who have experience in MMOs.

Its simple just implement it for us that want it. For the people who disagree its also very simple do other content, no one is forcing you to do HNMS. Certain gear is supposed to be rare and that's what creates value. Not everyone will be able to obtain the same piece and if your upset with that then i suppose you think everyone at your job (if you have one) should all get the same exact pay

Now dont kill me for what i'm about to ask, I havnt had time read the whole 91 pages yet but for the 1st page and it's summary.

Did anyone demand for our truly Sky/Sea HNM? I can not say how much great time I had with my LS doing HNM camp while farming Sea and Sky to get some Byakko Pants. I was a hardcore FFXI player and HNM camping and farming was the only purpose i kept playing with my LS for all those great years from 2004-2011.

There is just wanted to stop by and give me support and now let's read all 91 pages.....