The New Chat Restriction in The Feast

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

So, having to possibly blacklist 1 or 2 people who go too far or say too much holds more weight

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1 person on average after every match? Yes it is.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

entire community and game mode having the ability to communicate and strategize in a competitive environment?

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And the majority of this community is toxic and hostile towards anyone that doesn't live up their expectations. You really think they disabled the chat without any reason? They have the data and I take their word over anything else.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

We're all adults here. Do we really need to be told to behave ourselves and mind our manners?

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Define "we". And yes, some need to be told to behave themselves.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Worse still, do we all need to pay for those that don't do so?

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Sadly, yes. As you said, it's a community.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

And the majority of this community is toxic and hostile towards anyone that doesn't live up their expectations. You really think they disabled the chat without any reason? They have the data and I take their word over anything else.

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If anything I will give SE credit with holding the community as a whole responsible for their actions that lead to the restrictions placed on chat. Not many companies will do that now in the PC world. Even with the quick chat now, players still try to find ways to grieve one another with "Nice Job" spam and other ways to be an example.

So then, if we lived and drove in the same community, I should get a ticket if you run a red light?

I get really tired of these statements trying to justify what was a really bad move on SE's part. Read this thread, at least the first 39 pages (before they ever responded). They decided this and ignored all feedback from the community on it. When we suggested it could be implemented as a light punishment for offenders, that too was ignored. When we noted that it could cause more problems by stopping players that ARE decent and willing to give helpful advice to newer players, THAT TOO WAS IGNORED. We even called it on things like "Nice Job" being spammed sarcastically. Would that be an issue if it weren't forced on the community as a whole? No. Would there still be bad apples? Yes, but the bunch would hardly be spoiled by them. That is, unless you would agree that because there are bad apples even within the various PvE communities, they too deserve restricted chat?

I've had this debate many times now here, and I haven't changed my stance one bit: the chat restriction was a lazy, unnecessary fix to a small problem that created bigger problems and never solved the original one.

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Originally Posted by MixZ

If anything I will give SE credit with holding the community as a whole responsible for their actions that lead to the restrictions placed on chat. Not many companies will do that now in the PC world. Even with the quick chat now, players still try to find ways to grieve one another with "Nice Job" spam and other ways to be an example.

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The entire class got punished for the actions of 1 or 2 students? Because that's what happened. Why am I and a majority of the community being punished for the actions of a very small few? SE is quick and ruthless with harassment/toxicity reports in chat in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Korihu

The entire class got punished for the actions of 1 or 2 students? Because that's what happened. Why am I and a majority of the community being punished for the actions of a very small few? SE is quick and ruthless with harassment/toxicity reports in chat in the first place.

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As Oskar said, they likely have the data to justify it and it is highly unlikely they will never share that data.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

So then, if we lived and drove in the same community, I should get a ticket if you run a red light?

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Nope but if it is hurting the community as a whole then restrictions would be put in place for the safety of others so that this behavior is not encouraged in the future. While there are a number of pages on this they also look at the data they have from the game that they have to take into consideration as that is also evidence to justify the decision. The community outweighs the individual concerns in this case as they try to figure out what is the proper means to resolve this issue of the pvp community being very toxic in this game. Before Stormblood, it seemed to me that it is a small community that didn't want to grow to keep it for themselves so they can be the big fish in a little pond and giving new players a hard time. SE naturally wants the pond to be a lake.

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Originally Posted by MixZ

As Oskar said, they likely have the data to justify it and it is highly unlikely they will never share that data.

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Sorry, but when you put it like that, it really makes that data suspect.

When they first announced they were going to do this, they could've said "Based on data collected, X% of players have harrassed or been generally negative toward other player in the Feast, therefore we've decided to restrict the use of chat, and implement a quick chat system" and that would've been hard to dispute. But they didn't do that. They simply said it was going to happen, as if it had already been decided, and no amount of player feedback would affect that. Seriously, go back to the start of this and really take a look at what happened. Don't simply buy into the idea that it was justified due to internally collected data that we can/can't even verify might have actually been collected.

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Originally Posted by MixZ

Nope but if it is hurting the community as a whole then restrictions would be put in place for the safety of others so that this behavior is not encouraged in the future. While there are a number of pages on this they also look at the data they have from the game that they have to take into consideration as that is also evidence to justify the decision. The community outweighs the individual concerns in this case as they try to figure out what is the proper means to resolve this issue of the pvp community being very toxic in this game. Before Stormblood, it seemed to me that it is a small community that didn't want to grow to keep it for themselves so they can be the big fish in a little pond and giving new players a hard time. SE naturally wants the pond to be a lake.

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I was waiting for this, actually. So then, with the LARGER majority of the XIV community being more interested in PvE, and thus a larger representation of both good and bad players would be reasonable to assume, why then is chat not restricted for PvE? Aren't people toxic in dungeons and raids? Or even in towns? How about all those Novice Network complaints? Where are the restictions there? I can say that - at least within the Aether data center's PvP community - people were rather decent BECAUSE our numbers were small. Who wants to be that guy no one likes or wants to party with because he's just that toxic? Not only that, it's safe to say many want to win more than they want to verbally abuse others - and how helpful would it be to trash someone, then wind up on the same team again next match?

And as far as trying to play the small community card, the PvP community has ALWAYS wanted to grow. But popular misconceptions and - actually, I noted everything I'm about to say in the "Well done, SE" thread. Read my first post there to know why the PvP community was small. It DEFINITELY wasn't by choice. Not only that, but if this is so acceptable to be done to the PvP community simply because of its size, who's next? Raiders?

Then that is the fault of the community manager of putting it out to the community in that way. Does that mean I have to blindly rage and not look at the situation from all corners and make a conclusion for myself? I have been in positions in my life that I have had to do similar things (not restricting chat in a game) but not put out the source to the public because of certain restrictions to them. That would just cause more drama and do more harm than good. I remember when they came out and it was pretty much the parent punishing the child. Having seen how toxic the community was during season 1 from my own personal experience I was not surprised that SE took this route. Was I surprised they did it? Yup. Are you telling me that most of the chat you've seen during that time was not toxic? Each individual player only has a small percent of view of the community.

In the end, (in my view) PvP probably should have never been included in the game in the first place as it was treated as an after thought. The time, money, and resources to make that could have been used to make the game a stand out of PvE content or made the Gold Saucer an even better place for player to compete friendly with each other in games like Triple Triad, Chocobo Racing, etc.

Punishing everybody for the actions of a select few is not a good decision to make. It simply serves to breed contempt and the problematic individuals will find other ways to cause trouble. I remember one of my tutors back at a private school who taught Latin. If someone dared to speak up in her class then everybody would be given a detention regardless of their innocence. It did not work. If somebody had a disagreement with another person in that class they'd just deliberately speak up or be a nuisance so that everybody, including their rival, would end up being punished for it.

We're seeing something similar play out in PvP. Everybody has ridiculous restrictions in place that prevent them from speaking up but they're still exposed to unpleasant players. The difference now is that those unpleasant players simply spam chat commands and deliberately get themselves killed in an attempt to throw a match. Implementing a system to report problematic players and punishing the excessively toxic players would have made much more sense. Though that would require hiring a few more people to the support team and result in people getting banned which would result in a loss of income for Square Enix.

The cynical part of me believes that potential loss of income is precisely why such an awkward 'solution' was implemented in the first place in an attempt to try and sweep the toxicity beneath the rug rather than address the root cause. I may be mistaken, of course, but it's definitely frustrating.

If they have data, they should compare the amount of "Nice Job" and toxic sentences before chat restriction, even new players are spamming it at their 1st match just because they die once. It's so fuckin easy to press it to harrass a healer when you're doing shit and have no clue how hard is this job.

Stop defending this garbage system, we currently have more quick chat macros than skills we had pre SB, and it's far from being enough in regards to what we need to tell.

So many 10 stacks tank/DPS, so many tanks that take def buff, so many DPS that take wolf's heart, and you cannot tell them to not take it. Shall we increase quick chat again for this?

Yup and now we head into the realm of how business decision actually determine the move SE will make for the growth of the game. Solving the issues we have in the pvp side of the house sadly will probably cost money and time that they would probably spend on PvE content instead to serve the bigger community. I have always been the kind of person that if you are going to do something, do it right and commit and do it halfway. SE just went halfway with their pvp content and now we are in the situation we are in even at this point in the game when many hoped that the pvp side would finally get some live in Stormblood. I really hope the community grows and becomes something awesome with it's 10 million players currently active right? :P

If that is what you truly hope for, then you've got to really look at things and understand that it was a terrible decision to implement this, and even further terrible to ignore members of the community it directly impacted as they said what could happen as a result, and in fact, did.

There is no end justifies the means here.
There is no "greater good of the community" - not when we were so small to begin with and even the new people that have come into it are just as poorly affected.

The chat restriction is not, and never will be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Shut

If they have data, they should compare the amount of "Nice Job" and toxic sentences before chat restriction, even new players are spamming it at their 1st match just because they die once. It's so fuckin easy to press it to harrass a healer when you're doing shit and have no clue how hard is this job.

Stop defending this garbage system, we currently have more quick chat macros than skills we had pre SB, and it's far from being enough.

So many 10 stacks tank/DPS, so many tanks that take def buff, so many DPS that take wolf's heart, and you cannot tell them to not take it. Shall we increase quick chat again for this?

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Yes, we need more button!! That's the true purpose of having the new system implemented which 9 button + 2 and then a fun loads of quick chat button to fill the missing hotbar spot in which the chat restriction removal will totally not solve all the budget towards coding those quick chat function.

/s

Since this is the most relevant thread, I'm just gonna drop the suggestion that we need something like an "I'm under attack!" quick chat option, to tell your healer that you're being focused by the enemy dps. Healing is already one of the most demanding roles, especially for new players, and anything that helps guide their attention can only help.

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Originally Posted by Shut

If they have data, they should compare the amount of "Nice Job" and toxic sentences before chat restriction

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Originally Posted by MixZ

Even with the quick chat now, players still try to find ways to grieve one another with "Nice Job" spam and other ways to be an example.

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Look at it this way; now it's just a sarcastic or passive aggressive "Nice job" instead of "You should kill yourself", "Pls stop queuing bitch" or "I should report you for messing up muh rating"

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Since this is the most relevant thread, I'm just gonna drop the suggestion that we need something like an "I'm under attack!" quick chat option, to tell your healer that you're being focused by the enemy dps. Healing is already one of the most demanding roles, especially for new players, and anything that helps guide their attention can only help.

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I like this. Good suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Since this is the most relevant thread, I'm just gonna drop the suggestion that we need something like an "I'm under attack!" quick chat option, to tell your healer that you're being focused by the enemy dps. Healing is already one of the most demanding roles, especially for new players, and anything that helps guide their attention can only help.

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This is a good idea, though I feel like people will spam this one like they do with "Nice job" when they die, or multiple people will hit it at once and make things more confusing.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We're seeing something similar play out in PvP. Everybody has ridiculous restrictions in place that prevent them from speaking up but they're still exposed to unpleasant players. The difference now is that those unpleasant players simply spam chat commands and deliberately get themselves killed in an attempt to throw a match.

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OH thats whats been happening. A player spams "Good match!" 10-20 times after dieing. Worse when they Leeroy Jenkins into 4 enemies and make no attempt to run away or LoS. After resurrecting and spamming "Good match!' they go crazy again.

I love how I can have a teammate doing something wrong for the whole duration of the match and I can't tell them why that is bad. And they just enter next game to do the same thing. So good.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

I love how I can have a teammate doing something wrong for the whole duration of the match and I can't tell them why that is bad. And they just enter next game to do the same thing. So good.

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Fun times right got to love that

By Thal's balls, if I hear "Nice Job!" one more time I might snap. I'll have to restrain my hand from slapping the next irl person that says it.

Seriously though, if the chat restriction was intended to curb toxicity, it has failed spectacularly.

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Originally Posted by Rhinos

By Thal's balls, if I hear "Nice Job!" one more time I might snap. I'll have to restrain my hand from slapping the next irl person that says it.

Seriously though, if the chat restriction was intended to curb toxicity, it has failed spectacularly.

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I guess you could say...

Nice Job! ;)

On a more serious note, though, I'm in full agreement. It's a clunky attempt at a 'fix' that is needlessly punishing to players who are not toxic. It doesn't account for nuances or quick thinking either. When people step up and give out clear instructions in Frontlines it drastically increases the chance of their team winning. The same cannot be said of Feast given the very strict limitations in place. A lot of changes to the game were made for 2.0 as a result of 1.0 falling flat. I really, really hope that the development team are still humble enough to admit to mistakes and reverse this restriction instead of stubbornly embracing it.

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Originally Posted by Rhinos

Seriously though, if the chat restriction was intended to curb toxicity, it has failed spectacularly.

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Dude, I couldn't agree with you more. By the time I'm out of a bleeping match which has annoyed me from one of Saturn's moons and back, I'm either going off in Discord to my FC or going off in FC chat after the match, wallowing in complete and utter disgust at the epic blundering of a match I was in. I don't even understand why we can't FC chat during this?! In the infinitesimally microscopic chance that we get grouped in a match with an FC mate who happens to queue at the same time? Stop failing in PVP at every bleeping turn SE!

Bring back feast chat please. I'm tired of having to communicate with pokemon noises.

The noises are the worst. More of a distraction and annoyance than helpful. I have working eyes. I can see when things are said in the chat window - that is, when things were actually said, and it wasn't just limited, situational macros to be spammed sarcastically at the team.

92 Pages on this, SE. Seriously, what's up? How long will you ignore us? Luxpheras? Sicycre? You there?

It is unfortunate that they made it so difficult to make strategy because people being toxic couldn't be punished appropriately. Even so 97% of feast chat was a hot garbage train wreck of hate and despair. That isn't exactly conducive to building a game mode into a success.

I want to point out that IT'S NEARLY BEEN A YEAR OF ALMOST-ENTIRELY NEGATIVE FEEDBACK IN THIS TOPIC.

Yoshi P himself said he would address it and still hasn't.

If no one's within SE is going to listen, who will? Cause I'm about ready to go pay them instead.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I want to point out that IT'S NEARLY BEEN A YEAR OF ALMOST-ENTIRELY NEGATIVE FEEDBACK IN THIS TOPIC.

Yoshi P himself said he would address it and still hasn't.

If no one's within SE is going to listen, who will? Cause I'm about ready to go pay them instead.

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They addded new quick chat options lol

"Nice Job!"

At least add a quick chat saying...you are running to the wrong base! lol

We're unlikely to get a response, I fear. Which only serves to make the situation even more frustrating. I can't express enough just how irritating it is to lose a match due to being thrown into a group with players who have absolutely no clue what they are even doing and have no desire to do any research for themselves. It's even worse when someone ends up with ten stacks and causes a loss only to then show up in the next match as well. I've kept track of problematic players due to having a pretty good memory, so I recognise names. Weeks have passed and the same individuals show up making the same mistakes - because nobody can tell them not to play a certain way.

There's absolutely no reason not to allow players to communicate in an efficient manner in a PvP environment. Pretending as if toxic players are only a problem in PvP is dishonest, too - because I think most of the trash talking I've encountered in this game has been in a PvE environment. I'm really, really hoping that 4.1 is going to be amazing for PvP and make some major changes that will help keep PvP fans happy and content; including the removal of the awful chat restriction. I also wish the development team would just be honest and state outright whether or not they actually intend to keep it in place for the future. The lack of clear communication doesn't help in the slightest...and PvP is already given very little focus when there's Q&A sessions or Live Letters.

daily reminder that banning chat in 4v4 and enabling cross world /tell will result in the ban of lots of people for justified flames.

Friendly reminder that this thread was made nearly a year ago, and went 3 months and 40 pages before they asked for suggestions and feedback - exactly what was on the previous 39 pages.

And a further reminder that they believe restricting chat (and not the event that began at the time, among other major, positive changes to PvP) increased participation.

lol I can see it now. "Bots are not an issue. More ppl are playing now than in the past. It has nothing to do with the new pvp release."

They mentioned team registration in the recent media interviews. Is it too much to hope that with teams of actual friends, chat will be allowed again? The abuse happens due to playing with randoms of different skill levels and expectations with no way for newcomers to train properly in a better environment, so surely once teams become a thing (which should have been the case from day 1 rather than it being a random solo queue or cheating the system with a random LP, but I digress) the need for the chat ban will be greatly reduced? Let the teams of friends communicate to be inclusive of those on consoles or those with hearing/speech/language issues.

Well, thankfully you can't send tells cross-world unless the person is on your friends list so that nips the salt shower in the bud.

I'd hope the team registration in 4.2 will let us chat to each other -- otherwise, what's the point?

im disappointed in having to add on my FL a guy that i will flame right after and then delete him from my FL. What a loss of time

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Originally Posted by Headhunters

daily reminder that banning chat in 4v4 and enabling cross world /tell will result in the ban of lots of people for justified flames.

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"justified"

This is why you got quick chat people.

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Originally Posted by Headhunters

daily reminder that banning chat in 4v4 and enabling cross world /tell will result in the ban of lots of people for justified flames.

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daily reminder that you can send cross world /tell only to people in your friend list and PF recruiters.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

"justified"

This is why you got quick chat people.

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...and yet they won't dare remove the chat function from the PvE side of the game even though there is a lot of toxicity to be found there as well. The removal of the chat function for PvP is a very bizarre decision and one rooted, I suspect, in a desire to not have to go through reports of players taking things too far. I was prepared to give the benefit of the doubt up until recently but a recent interview claimed that bot/win trading reports were 'overblown' so it really just feels like the issues with PvP are being swept under the rug and given some halfhearted quick fixes.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

"justified"

This is why you got quick chat people.

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So it's fair then to judge PvPers by this guy's poor attitude? Please tell me how that's even remotely right or fair?

Would it be fair of me to say all people from your server act like you do, or might you see that flaw in your logic there?