The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

As much as it pains me to say this, not quite. The questline is about how she refuses to draw aether from nature, instead burning up her own life in a sense to fuel her healing. The questline does not have anything to do with whether she does damage or not.

What is relevant however, is that she thinks she knows what she is doing and completely throws out the wisdom of 'someone who's been doing this for far longer and knows way more about how it should be done', and having a temper tantrum whenever anyone offers her constructive criticism, which I think is the real message of the questline that we should be focusing on

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This but also - she throws out the line of, and this is a misquote mind you, "I just want to heal!" while also throwing out the wisdom.

Which is where the whole "I want to heal" = Sylphie mindset comes from. I don't agree with the term and I don't like the term.

Saying "I want to heal" shouldn't be a death sentence to being called a Sylphie since, yeah, that is what I want to do. I've played support classes with nothing more than buff management on top of dps and its not what I like. I want to heal while doing those things and I want healing to take up the MAJORITY (read 40-~70ish) of my time while also having to maintain buffs and doing dps.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I can see why some might want a 'turret style healer', can I instead float the idea that SGE be that potentially, given that it's got 'Aetherial Manipulation' of sorts with Icarus (albeit, way longer CD)? It'd also have a much larger focus on AlwaysBeCasting mentality given that it's healing could potentially be tied to it's damage a lot more strongly (most ideas posted here double down on the damage>healing conversion paradigm pretty heavily)

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Ehhhh I wouldn't care if SGE had long cast times or not so long as its healing is tied to damage with Kardia and an AOE variant.

You aren't going to see me caring a whole lot about SGE for several reasons because:

1. It pretty much stole my idea for WHM, where in it doing big damage was going to contribute to its healing

2. I believe SGE shouldn't even be a thing rn. I didn't want nor need a 4th healer simply because I KNEW it wasn't going to fix the problems of the 3 existing ones AND it was going to be a clone of SCH because SE can't think of different healing styles to save their lives.

Now, that isn't to say I don't want SGE to be what it could be, but I just... I don't really care about it.

I will say that depending on how the turret style is done it could make SGE have an issue with healing if that is going to be its main source of healing. Granted you can make tools to where it becomes less of an issue, but I CAN see people making comparisons to old Cleric stance in worry about accidentally letting people die.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Ehhhh I wouldn't care if SGE had long cast times or not so long as its healing is tied to damage with Kardia and an AOE variant.

You aren't going to see me caring a whole lot about SGE for several reasons because:

1. It pretty much stole my idea for WHM, where in it doing big damage was going to contribute to its healing

2. I believe SGE shouldn't even be a thing rn. I didn't want nor need a 4th healer simply because I KNEW it wasn't going to fix the problems of the 3 existing ones AND it was going to be a clone of SCH because SE can't think of different healing styles to save their lives.

Now, that isn't to say I don't want SGE to be what it could be, but I just... I don't really care about it.

I will say that depending on how the turret style is done it could make SGE have an issue with healing if that is going to be its main source of healing. Granted you can make tools to where it becomes less of an issue, but I CAN see people making comparisons to old Cleric stance in worry about accidentally letting people die.

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What I'd ultimately like to see from SGE is to follow GNB's approach--be the healer that feels like a DPS in the way that GNB is the tank that feels like a DPS. That's not entirely true of course, but SGE should have a high APM, fast paced gameplay model of having a real rotation with different options for spells that award different kardia effects.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Doing better than me. I would slap a BLM rotation on WHM since someone else brought that up and I think that would be interesting if gods awful to balance and heal with.

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Still working on my own mock-up, but so far --outside of a sort of burst form that turns all the elements into Pure/Holy/Light magic instead anyways-- it's been an effort in making it very difficult to get less than some 80% of maximum output out of.

That mock-up uses Earth, Wind, and Water, but in such a way that each element self-ramps (so, self-synergizes) and has synergies with the other two, so while particular sequences chosen contextually can offer a high ceiling that should feel at least as engaging as perfecting Optimal Drift in a fight that has actual unavoidable downtime... a literal random-button-pressing floor would already get one through the expectations of most content. Atop that, Water acts as a recovery mechanism for overhealing in general (akin to Lilies, but with decaying %recovery, rather than all or nothing), so it should be pretty accessible and more than ever have some serious 'prog healer' vibes without that in turn meaning 'avoided for farms'.

:: The main CNJ/Elementalist roots selling point here would be that these elements are pure attacks on paper or in practice. Wind, for instance, can be used for mobility support or can even help to emanate (partially AoE duplicate) Water heals from an ally near a Wind-ed ally or enemy, Earth can provide not only physical damage and knockbacks or stuns (Stone IV) to enemies, but can also provide Stoneskin (and, if I could push the boundaries sufficiently, ground-placeable walls that act like flat damage reduction Passage of Arms, though only from attacks also passing through those walls).

But, a ways to go on hammering out the synergy paths and deciding how many buttons I want to devote to these purposes... and how much I want to push general boundaries (such as by allowing for a %reduction on certain spells' recast times, instead of using the fixed 1.5s GCD that so harms Skill Speed on MCH, for instance).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I have no dislike of "raiders". I have a dislike of elitists and exclusionary types. Oh, sorry, I didn't see you there. Hi Sebezy, I was just talking about you!

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I'm an elitist? Have you actually looked at my logs? Exclusionary? Just a few posts back I was pointing out how idiotic it was that WHM was getting denied spots in Zurvan PFs because of it's issues in A12S. Please try a little harder sir.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No. Your "sources" weren't data, they were some really old forum posts.

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And yet it's more substantial than anything your crystal ball/hotline to uncle Yoshida has ever materialised. Why is that?

But ok then, if you can put aside your little paddy for a moment, lets try a different approach:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=he...bih=2433&dpr=1

Excuse the mega long link, it's a google search specific for reddit. Shadowbringer's pre order access started on the 28th of June 2019. The Media tour and job unveils were end of May/Begining of June... And oh would you look at that, right from page 1 literally days after Shadowbringers became playable. We've got rumblings of healer shortages. Beyond that we've got one mention of erratic healer queues in Hauuke Manor from 2014 aka ARR. Let's carry on digging and see if we can find a post mentioning your great healer drought at the tail end of HW.

Page 3: A few posts mentioning tank shortages, still nothing on healer shortages circa mid 2017 though.

Page 5: We get close, a thread referring to an OF post here but the first post on reddit was deleted unfortunately. However reading through the context of the comments it appears to be referring to a lack of healers for Savage raids, not a huge surprise given how negative the forums were over WHM (Despite IMHO it actually being in a comparatively good state thanks to how mighty Thin Air was) and the sad mess SCH was left in for a month or so. Let's keep going shall we?

Page 8: Here's a post talking about queue times and it's from right before Stormblood lands! Let's see what is said:

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I've recently come across the opposite problem. As soon as patch 3.4 came out I suddenly had to wait 20-30 minutes for dungeon queues as a WHM. Before that I only waited 1-2 minutes at most. Playing as DPS I wait just as long or longer. But the second I pick DRK, I'm instantly queued, and I'm a horrible, horrible DRK.

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Oh, oh dear... Ok swiftly moving on.

Page 10: Here's another bite, it's a thread specifically covering queue times and rewards for tanks to try and get them to queue in DF more. Reading through it, it would appear that it's exactly as I thought at the time... Tanks had insta queues, healers had reasonable queues and DPS had to suck it up or queue with a friend. I don't think there's any need to carry on searching. Do you?

In all seriousness though, perhaps it was a server thing? Perhaps it was a leveling thing? If it was as wide reaching as you seem to be implying, where are all the threads about it? All I'm finding from that period is the usual 'no tanks' stuff.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Always glad to enlighten the ignorant, my friend.

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That's a keeper.

Keep h8ing =(

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What I'd ultimately like to see from SGE is to follow GNB's approach--be the healer that feels like a DPS in the way that GNB is the tank that feels like a DPS. That's not entirely true of course, but SGE should have a high APM, fast paced gameplay model of having a real rotation with different options for spells that award different kardia effects.

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Not a healer I would be interested in then. I do like GNB's burst rotation but I get that fix from AST and don't believe I want anything more than that on a healer. Having different kardia effects however? Sign me up.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Not a healer I would be interested in then. I do like GNB's burst rotation but I get that fix from AST and don't believe I want anything more than that on a healer. Having different kardia effects however? Sign me up.

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While I'm not opposed to a Sage that feels more like a DPS in that it'd then have actual damage dynamics to significantly bank for healing --and probably the highest combined output of any healer when (and maybe only when) healing requirements come out at the same time as raid buffs / raid damage windows-- I'd likewise more Kardia effects.

However, one thing I absolutely do not want is a no-CD AoE Kardia. That is just far too likely to remove any reason to actually move Kardia around, making Kardia less a part of SGE gameplay for having added that tool to it.

New tools killing off the gameplay considerations previously available to a job by giving that too-direct/too-discrete "solution" or just plain overpowered (relative to other options) skill is exactly the kind of problem the devs would be likely to slam our heads against for their inability to well imagine the player experience (inability/refusal to measure door-height, to use a rough metaphor).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I'm not opposed to a Sage that feels more like a DPS in that it'd then have actual damage dynamics to significantly bank for healing --and probably the highest combined output of any healer when (and maybe only when) healing requirements come out at the same time as raid buffs / raid damage windows-- I'd likewise more Kardia effects.

However, one thing I absolutely do not want is a no-CD AoE Kardia. That is just far too likely to remove any reason to actually move Kardia around, making Kardia less a part of SGE gameplay for having added that tool to it.

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Only way I'd be slightly interested in Kardia management on the party is if doing X amount of damage placed a short HoT on the party member, giving a sort of buff management feel to it. But SGE was never the healer for me and is never going to be.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

However, one thing I absolutely do not want is a no-CD AoE Kardia. That is just far too likely to remove any reason to actually move Kardia around, making Kardia less a part of SGE gameplay for having added that tool to it.

New tools killing off the gameplay considerations previously available to a job by giving that too-direct/too-discrete "solution" or just plain overpowered (relative to other options) skill is exactly the kind of problem the devs would be likely to slam our heads against for their inability to well imagine the player experience (inability/refusal to measure door-height, to use a rough metaphor).

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I'm pretty sure Ty's SGE rework idea had yes, an AOE Kardia, but at a large MP cost. And I know my idea had AOE Kardia, at a large MP cost. Basically gating it behind 'manage your MP correctly' rather than an arbitrary CD length, while it's still 'accessible' in a sense, reintroducing a whole concept like 'actually manage your MP for once' is worth it I'd argue, idk if you agree though

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Only way I'd be slightly interested in Kardia management on the party is if doing X amount of damage placed a short HoT on the party member, giving a sort of buff management feel to it. But SGE was never the healer for me and is never going to be.

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I've wanted 'stagger' as a mechanic for a long time, and adding a healer that mitigates by delaying damage into a DOT (and focusing on HOTs to equalize the HP bars) is an idea I'd like to see. Engine probably can't support it. But it'd be 'buff management' of sorts, keeping the buff up on people to delay the damage, maybe

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I'm pretty sure Ty's SGE rework idea had yes, an AOE Kardia, but at a large MP cost. And I know my idea had AOE Kardia, at a large MP cost. Basically gating it behind 'manage your MP correctly' rather than an arbitrary CD length, while it's still 'accessible' in a sense, reintroducing a whole concept like 'actually manage your MP for once' is worth it I'd argue, idk if you agree though.

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Sorry, should have said "freely spammable" (or "always available" / "usable in place of regular Kardia") rather than "no-CD". Hefty MP costs are likewise fine.