Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

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Originally Posted by Snorky

But that is the point fun doesn't have to equal difficult entertaining doesn't have to equal hard there is nothing wrong with the design either.

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That isn't what I said, at all.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Not talking about whether they are fun or entertaining. Nor is it difficulty, as difficulty =/=level design. Again, this isn't exclusive to FF14. FF13 was also heavily criticized for this, and again with FF7R.

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What exactly is your problem with the current dungeons then? You seem very vocal about how "trash" they are yet apparently you aren't saying they are boring or too easy. What is is you expect from content designed for the entire player base?

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

What exactly is your problem with the current dungeons then? You seem very vocal about how "trash" they are yet apparently you aren't saying they are boring or too easy. What is is you expect from content designed for the entire player base?

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They are glorified hallways. I know they are boring and incredibly easy, but that is an issue separate from level design.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

They are glorified hallways. I know they are boring and incredibly easy, but that is an issue separate from level design.

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Cool, how did it work out when Square gave us options on which path to take then? From my memory everyone quickly memorized the "correct" route and ignored the rest of the dungeon. The closest thing I can imagine to a complex dungeon design that could work would be Delve from FFXI. What people did there was either get lost and killed, moan about having to kill tons of useless trash trying to find the boss or use illegal mods to find the boss they wanted, runs timing out before they could find the boss, or while fighting it were not uncommon. Only with like minded friends could you really expect a successful chilled out exploration type experience, random pugs didn't really provide it, certainly not on a consistent basis.

FFXIV dungeons are designed to be completed quickly, daily, consistently and with a random group of players using random jobs without anyone getting lost or anyone getting picked on. Their design works fine, it's the philosophy you don't like and that's completely understandable, you can please some of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all the time.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Cool, how did it work out when Square gave us options on which path to take then? From my memory everyone quickly memorized the "correct" route and ignored the rest of the dungeon.

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I'm not sure why we're assuming that the only way for dungeons not to feel like mere unvaried hallways is for us to have side-routes that get one no nearer to the core objective...

One (bad) approach does not make for an exhaustive list of possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Cool, how did it work out when Square gave us options on which path to take then? From my memory everyone quickly memorized the "correct" route and ignored the rest of the dungeon.

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actually, in brayflox longstop there is a big room with a few packs. Every time i get brayflox longstop the party seems to take a different path through that big room. We could have more dungeons like that where rather than being a literal tunnel, its more of a big room with mobs.

aurum vale's first room is quite similar to this. the reason pulling big in aurum vale is so dangerous is because classes dont have the means to handle that much damage at that level. we could easily have another aurum vale with our high level kits and it wouldn't be nearly as disastrous, just like brayflox big room isn't.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Square likely has terabytes of metrics data floating around on their servers which is literally the only thing they need to make profitable decisions.

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Ahh, yes, that metrics-driven decision making that has worked so well for Ian Hazzikostas or has offered us the objectively (metrically-proven) 'better' experiences of microtransaction hell, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not sure why we're assuming that the only way for dungeons not to feel like mere unvaried hallways is for us to have side-routes that get one no nearer to the core objective...

One (bad) approach does not make for an exhaustive list of possibilities.

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True, but I just think that players will very quickly find the fastest route to finishing a dungeon and insist on that. Square could come up with the greatest dungeon layout in history but players are like water, they seek out the line of least resistance.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

actually, in brayflox longstop there is a big room with a few packs. Every time i get brayflox longstop the party seems to take a different path through that big room. We could have more dungeons like that where rather than being a literal tunnel, its more of a big room with mobs.

aurum vale's first room is quite similar to this. the reason pulling big in aurum vale is so dangerous is because classes dont have the means to handle that much damage at that level. we could easily have another aurum vale with our high level kits and it wouldn't be nearly as disastrous, just like brayflox big room isn't.

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I like those area's too, there isn't much decision making going on though, the tank just picks their favourite route. I don't think more area's like that would be a problem though and I'd welcome it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ahh, yes, that metrics-driven decision making that has worked so well for Ian Hazzikostas or has offered us the objectively (metrically-proven) 'better' experiences of microtransaction hell, etc.

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Wow has done a bad job of integrating metrics into their decision making, all game companies use them though. The art of making good decisions is understanding the relationship between metrics and feedback, Square seem to have a good handle on this, Blizzard are obviously terrible at it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ahh, yes, that metrics-driven decision making that has worked so well for Ian Hazzikostas or has offered us the objectively (metrically-proven) 'better' experiences of microtransaction hell, etc.

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I may sound hopelessly naive but personally I have the impression with FF14 that all they want, and want quite passionately, is to give players an experience they genuinely enjoy. With the way they design dungeons, the thing that strikes me most is how they try to protect players from other players. Not just for revenue (tho it no doubt plays a role) but also because they feel responsible for the experience people have in this game. In that sense I feel you can’t compare the two companies I think, their motivations, to me at least, feel very different.

In that sense I trust the decision to make dungeons the way they do.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

I may sound hopelessly naive but personally I have the impression with FF14 that all they want, and want quite passionately, is to give players an experience they genuinely enjoy. With the way they design dungeons, the thing that strikes me most is how they try to protect players from other players. Not just for revenue (tho it no doubt plays a role) but also because they feel responsible for the experience people have in this game. In that sense I feel you can’t compare the two companies I think, their motivations, to me at least, feel very different.

In that sense I trust the decision to make dungeons the way they do.

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I don't think it's a coincidence that both WoW and CoD are both cash cows for Activision and seem to share so many problems. Both player bases are unhappy with their game and the route causes seem to be lack of feedback response, tone deaf decision making and far too much emphasis on profits over enjoyable gaming experiences.