LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Really? Because I'm under the impression that that is an attack with 30k hits then a heal at 20k. With 20% mitigation that's 24k dmg with the a heal that would be 4k. With 20% healing the dmg is 30k with a 24k heal which is 6k. So mitigation is better right? Or am I crazy?

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the pasive extra mitigation give you a visual impact of they effectiveness, the HP increse no, but both are balance so both tanks die in the extact number of hits without excepcion.

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Originally Posted by Falar

This will only happen in fixed parties. Any time I ask a random DPS through DF if they even have diversion equipped I get a response along the lines of "LOL why just tank better".

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I totally have Diversion equipped as RDM... why, I actually NEED it sometimes. Hahaha.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Really? Because I'm under the impression that that is an attack with 30k hits then a heal at 20k. With 20% mitigation that's 24k dmg with the a heal that would be 4k. With 20% healing the dmg is 30k with a 24k heal which is 6k. So mitigation is better right? Or am I crazy?

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Assume a WAR and PLD have 30k hp base. PLD has Shield Oath, WAR has Defiance for 37.5k hp total and +20% healing.

PLD taking 30k damage mitigates it to 24k damage, leaving them with 6k hp (20%). WAR takes the full 30k, leaving it at 7.5k (20%).

PLD gets healed for 20k and ends up at 26k hp (86.7%). WAR gets healed for 24k and ends up at 31.5k (84%).

There is an incredibly small difference that won't be noticed by any healer, and it's caused because Defiance's boosted healing is slightly weaker than it should be, not because mitigation is automatically better. You don't need to change how you heal depending on what tank you get, as long as they're using comparable cooldowns. If Defiance's healing was boosted to 25% the numbers would be identical.

A tank doing any amount of dps doesn't bother me at all same goes for any healer. What really sets me off about the whole situation is neglecting there job to do it. I capped a dps first yes working my drk now. I can't tell you how many times I've died from tanking while a healing tunnel dps. It's always whoops. And the comment about there's so many dps you see more bad dps because of the amount of them but if you compare numbers I've seen just ad many bad tanks and healers. If fact happened last night to me. Susana ex couldn't even get the dps check from the off tank letting orbs kill 2 to 3 dps each time. Why so he could hot the damn sword also. Tank dps hell ya I felt like the beginning 60s for drk was never gonna end took forever to kill shit. Great tank will do there job and dps well but there's a way higher percentage of tanks thou who cannot and wipe groups for it. That's probably why it's being change for the norm.

I think a lot of the problems with what SE is trying to do stems from the way the content itself is designed. All other Tank issues aside, its baffling to me that SE somehow designed content where it's even possible for us to wear accessories 50ilvls lower than what the content is designed for, while in dps stance and still effectively tank. To me, that is a failure in FFXIV's design. It shouldn't even be possible to do, yet it is. It just shows how bad VIT is as a main stat. If SE really wants us to wear VIT accessories, they need to make it so that the content demands us to do so, because right now it just doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

If SE really wants us to wear VIT accessories, they need to make it so that the content demands us to do so, because right now it just doesn't.

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From what I've seen until now, I'd say that healers have a higher heal per second than bosses' DPS, as long as they don't run out of MP, so, of course, max HP is not very relevant. That's something that should be changed. If, for example, healers do 2000 HPS, then bosses should do 2050 DPS. This way, it would be a race between who kills who first.

It's clearly visible in PvP (at least before 4.0). It doesn't matter which job you have, if you try to kill a single target supported by a healer, you'll fail...all the time.

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Originally Posted by Launched

If Defiance's healing was boosted to 25% the numbers would be identical.

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Frankly, with the new state of WAR's healing capabilities, I wonder why it wasn't changed.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

I think a lot of the problems with what SE is trying to do stems from the way the content itself is designed. All other Tank issues aside, its baffling to me that SE somehow designed content where it's even possible for us to wear accessories 50ilvls lower than what the content is designed for, while in dps stance and still effectively tank. To me, that is a failure in FFXIV's design. It shouldn't even be possible to do, yet it is. It just shows how bad VIT is as a main stat. If SE really wants us to wear VIT accessories, they need to make it so that the content demands us to do so, because right now it just doesn't.

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There's a couple of things that enable it.

1) Mobs not hitting hard enough: This means you can survive when not in your defensive stance, thus devaluing it in the eyes of the player.
2) MP conservation not being a thing for healers: This means despite making yourself take more damage than you should, you're not an MP sponge on the healer. So a tank making themselves take more damage is not berated for wasting the healer's MP.
3) Inherent enmity bonuses: One of the things that helps set tank stances apart from their damage counterparts is that they tend to be key to holding aggro in addition to survival. Simply put, no tank stance = no aggro generation = mob is not focusing on you. This is circumvented because SE decided to have stances enter the game very late instead of between the lv10-15 range, which led to the devs implementing the aggro combos as we currently know them.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's why I think basic healing spells should be less powerful.

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Honestly, I doubt you can make healing so weak that your actual health buffer matters without making healers very sad puppies.

The healing done by healers is in the millions. Even just one million healing is 20 times as much as your puny health buffer provides - if you have 50k health. Real healing numbers are probably closer to 2-2,5 million for an EX fight without overheal. You could nerf healing by 50% across the board and the health buffer from VIT would still be... cute in comparison.

Going over DPS vs HPS can work, but it has one glaring issue: HPS is gear and skill reliant. That means people above the minimum gear and skill will be able to negate the surplus you gave the boss to make it a race and thereby negate the entire race, making HP a dead stat again. That also assumes healing and damage are constant streams, while the game typically uses burst moments instead.

Honestly? I don't consider health as a stat salvage-able in the trinity set-up. Not without completely neutering healers. So either they keep it as the otherwise useless burst buffer nobody wants it is now, make the damage scale off VIT/Health, or they ditch the concept of VIT accessories entirely and just buff the tank stances or cooldowns to compensate for the loss of assumed EHP.

But knowing them, they'll probably just buff enmity modifiers and lock all accessories, because that is the worst possible solution.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That means people above the minimum gear and skill will be able to negate the surplus you gave the boss to make it a race and thereby negate the entire race, making HP a dead stat again.

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Reduce the need ? Sure. Negate it completely ? Bad content scaling. It's exactly the same for DPS. If you have more skill, you'll manage to clear with minimul ilvl (Or even lower, if the content is heavily based on mechanics more than numbers), but I really doubt the most skilled DPS can defeat the new "Stone,Sky,Sea" with 5 i270 VIT accessories.

You know what could be interesting ? Make the dummy attack you when you try to defeat it as a tank. On top of killing it, you'd also have to survive on your own...and it would allow reactive skills to be used. They could even add an NPC you have to heal when you do the test as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

2) MP conservation not being a thing for healers: This means despite making yourself take more damage than you should, you're not an MP sponge on the healer. So a tank making themselves take more damage is not berated for wasting the healer's MP.

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It's already been said multiple times in this thread, but apparently it needs to be said again: a tank wearing strength accessories does not take more damage than a tank wearing vitality accessories.