PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except numbers seem to say that it's not the case.

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Well then those DRK do not know how to play then. My group is running a sub optimal tank comp, PLD and DRK. Tried this multiple times on a dummy and with the same ammount of str/vit DRK is easily above 100 dps with grit/darkside on. Then compared to a warrior only playing in defiance the result is the same except the dps difference is a lot smaller, thanks to that slashing debuff.

I've seen parses from many competent group on my server and the results are roughly the same but are often biased especially on A1 since not everyone is stance dancing the same way. Some people are still progressing, some people are putting WAR as MT etc.

Of course if you take a WAR that is stance dancing properly (as it should) it'll always be higher than a DRK even with the slashing debuff but that was not the subject.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Deal with that, instead of complaining that a few fights that don't let you block make your entire skillset irrelevant and that you need buffs.

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That's the issue with like 80% of the people on these forums since HW came out. Before the expansion there was only one support role, only two tanks and also only two healers. If you wanted to have an optimal group setup then you'd need to have all of tanks/healers in your group. There wasn't any fight that was "bad" for neither of these jobs because there wasn't any other alternative. With the introduction of new tank/healer jobs people fail to see that SE now made some fights easier/harder for certain classes but that doesn't mean any class needs a buff. This means diversity was introduced and groups now have to choose. If they want an overall better mitigation then they'll loose DPS. If they want to still have tanks doing a lot of DPS then they'll either need to choose beetween magic resistance (A1-A3 and A4 for the bombs) with a better dps while tanking or utility and a good physical mitigation (A2-A3 and A4 MT). No matter which comp you'll choose you'll always get a trade-off.

People are bitching about DPS because early clears rely heavily on that as people do not have a lot of gear, but when each dps will have their weapon and one or two esoteric pieces it'll no longer be a problem unless your DPS are garbage. People think balance is all about being as good as another class no matter which fight they are on. Diversity is having multiple options at your disposal each having their pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Well then those DRK do not know how to play then.

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No, they don't, and you even said yourself why :

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Of course if you take a WAR that is stance dancing properly (as it should) it'll always be higher than a DRK even with the slashing debuff but that was not the subject.

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That's the subject, in fact.

"Main tanking" is not "Staying in tank stance all the time". In a real fight, a good WAR will stance dance, and will do more damage. It's even designed to stance dance, otherwise, Wrath/Abandon wouldn't be converted. Stance dancing is not some fancy new meta that WARs only discovered now, it's included in the job.

The real problem between the three tanks is how the game is based on thresholds.
As long as you can survive a fight, all the additionnal mitigation is wasted, as long as the same party setup is required.

Ok, let's say PLD and DRK can survive much better than WAR (Which is questionable), can WAR survive enough to clear any content with the help of two healers and four DPS ? Yes.
Can WAR deal more damage than PLD or DRK (Even if it's not by THAT much) ? Yes

So, why pick another tank than WAR ?

If you want each tank to be on par, you have to focus on something else than survival. And each on a (useful) different thing (Damage, Healing, Buff, Debuff, etc...)

We're talking about progression right?

Any tank can stance dance properly when them and the healers are comfortable with the encouter. The main goal of progression is being able to survive and as a tank even as a warrior you wont output that much damage. At some point when the healers are comfortable with the instance, yourself and them will be able to dps but it'll be meaningless since you probably already killed it or about to. That's why the bonus DPS warrior brings is as useful as the extra mitigation you get with other classes. In fact it does only matter when the gear check is so tight you have to output the maximum dps and in that case yes warrior is more useful that any of the other two tanks.

But as people get gear, like I said earlier that extra dps will be as useful as the extra mitigation because at some point it should be easy enough to kill the boss before the enrage for 4 dps even with two paladin.

Moreover people should just stop whining about WAR as SE designed encounters to be killed without one. It's not like you'd need two months to beat A3 with a PLD/DRK setup heck there are plenty of group on my server which did A1/A2 without a war and it's only been three weeks.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

That's why the bonus DPS warrior brings is as useful as the extra mitigation you get with other classes.

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Absolutely not. More DPS is not wasted. Clearing content will always be faster with better gear. If you can clear faster with a better geared PLD, you'll go even faster with an equally geared WAR.
The only exception is timed phases or bad transitions (But, as we saw in Coil, they tend to nerf content to remove this problem)

Moreso ! Clearing content faster means less damage taken overall, so the extra mitigation of PLD will even be less and less useful.

Yes, content will be doable with any tanks, but as gear progresses, the gap between WAR and PLD will only grow.

To be honest this is an utopia where every person in your group plays correctly their class. If i'd get a penny everytime I met someone in df/pf which was lacking I'd be rich. When content is irrelevant because of gear having 5% more dps is nothing. If every group needed to be setup in an optimal manner then in second coil you would only have get a monk on t8 and on final coil double monk all the way. Slightly better group dps was never something that made a job more "viable" compared to another. It's just relevant on content where people are by far undergeared.

You also seem to forget that when alexander savage will become farmable we'll get many people who cannot play their class properly and the extra mitigation will be useful. Even as a warrior I was often forced to switch to full vit because healers couldn't keep up in final coil. Moreover defiance is only effective when healed and at maximum HP so stance dancing as a warrior puts more effort on healers, there will probably be groups that'll prefer having an easier time at healing compared to having extra dps.

I'm not on A4 yet but by that time I'll get more gear so do the dps and my healers will most probably prefer having a MT that takes less damage and a DRK that can pickup a lot of magic damage into the face.

I haven't tested Alex Savage yet, but I'm pretty sure if you're often forced to switch full VIT as a WAR, I'll have to do it too as a PLD.
Their mitigation is actually close to each closer, especially for A1 and A4 where busters are magical, as their eHP.

Yes, you might not be able to stance dance. But a WAR in full Defiance will also do more DPS than a PLD in Shield Oath. In fact, it's where the gap is the biggest.

So sick of this whole dps thing. How about we ask for things like..shields getting a defense stat? Anyone who thinks a 1h sword should out damage a 2 handed axe/sword is playing the job for the wrong reasons. PLD is fine where it is now. Let's get on bigger issues like DRK's mp consumption while main tanking.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

So sick of this whole dps thing. How about we ask for things like..shields getting a defense stat? Anyone who thinks a 1h sword should out damage a 2 handed axe/sword is playing the job for the wrong reasons. PLD is fine where it is now. Let's get on bigger issues like DRK's mp consumption while main tanking.

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There's a reason for DRK's massive threat gain-so you can spam more of your mp restoring weapon skill. If you really like to discuss on that, there are quite a number of DRK threads to voice your opinion. Seeing that this is a PLD thread, it's like going inside the girl's bathroom and complain for the absence of urinals.

Moving on, what i can suggest on this low dps while on MT is to normalize auto-attack damage while in tank stance and then apply a flat pot decrease on all weapon skills that aren't shield based or implement a future ability out of the global cooldown that is only usable on shield oath where it deals damage for every block.

TBH if we really want to make a worthwhile adjustment to PLD, take it's stances off the GCD and at the very least reduce if not eliminate the MP costs so stance dancing is possible for PLD like any other stance based job. I don't see any reason other jobs can freely hot potato between their offensive/defensive stances and PLD get's double penalized with GCD and roughly 1/6th total MP loss.