Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

On the surface, what you just said, I have no problem with. However, too often the implementation of 'criticism' usually leaves much to be desired. The words 'trash', 'garbage' and 'uninstall', for instance should not be part of it, but, many people who like to give criticism seem to enjoy using those words, among others, and, well, no one is going to take criticism in good spirits when given that way. The criticism is going to be completely ignored, and the person will be less likely to pay attention to criticism from anyone after that.

i.e. criticism is fine. You do it the wrong way, the person you were supposedly trying to help, will instead ignore you and anyone who even starts to act like you. So, if you *actually* want to help people, as some of you say, then you need to make sure you don't act the way some have shown here in the forums. In simple words, criticism is fine, but being a dick about it means you might as well save your breath, no matter how good it may feel to you.

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Report and move on, but that being said even if a person is a dick about it does not negate the criticism.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Yea and the TOS allow you to report people calling each other trash and garbage.

Why do you all act like implementing a DPS metter will magically allow people to be toxic without any kind of punishment?

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And now GM team has 20000% increase in submitted tickets. There is a reason PvP toggled of free chat years ago :p

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Originally Posted by Nanne

There is a reason PvP toggled of free chat years ago :p

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To an effect of... no reduction in toxicity, since the disease was never addressed, only its transcribable symptoms suppressed so the team can pretend they're not there. Quite the tradition, at this point.

Are we honestly going to try to make the case here that player freedoms, learning, and support tools should be held hostage to XIV just wanting to spend even less on community/game management?

they need to stop necro bumping this dumpster fire.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

And now GM team has 20000% increase in submitted tickets. There is a reason PvP toggled of free chat years ago :p

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So now it is bad because it increases the amount of work a person was hired to do? God I wish more jobs worked like that where people actively want to prevent the workers from working too hard.

Reading and taking action on tickets is legit one of ther primary functions
.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

And now GM team has 20000% increase in submitted tickets. There is a reason PvP toggled of free chat years ago :p

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It not like their paid to review tickets.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

And now GM team has 20000% increase in submitted tickets. There is a reason PvP toggled of free chat years ago :p

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And then you lose the first team fight and someone explodes like:
Nice job! Nice job! Good Game! Good game! Nice job! Hello! Nice job! Good game!

But it's fine, they're not being toxic because team chat doesnt exist in CC. :)

Chat still exists in frontline btw. Which has a chart at the end telling everyone who did how much damage over the fight.

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Originally Posted by george357

they need to stop necro bumping this dumpster fire.

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In order for it to be considered necroposting, the thread would have to actually, you know, die?

https://i.imgur.com/ZMA4CMX.gif

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

It almost like you could mesure things like how well you do mechanics and how well you do rotation and weave by the amount of damage you do. Turn out people who don't dodge AOE deal less damage when they die.

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See Sig below

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

So now it is bad because it increases the amount of work a person was hired to do? God I wish more jobs worked like that where people actively want to prevent the workers from working too hard.

Reading and taking action on tickets is legit one of ther primary functions
.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

It not like their paid to review tickets.

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You're not looking at the big picture though.

There are two ways a company deals with increased workload.
1. increase manpower by shifting workers from other activities, ie. content, or
2. increase manpower by increasing staff, more money.

So, we either end up with less content less often, ie. pushing out patches every 6 months with less content and expansions every three years, OR increase the sub price to compensate for increased payroll.
Which one would you suggest?

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

You're not looking at the big picture though.

There are two ways a company deals with increased workload.
1. increase manpower by shifting workers from other activities, ie. content, or
2. increase manpower by increasing staff, more money.

So, we either end up with less content less often, ie. pushing out patches every 6 months with less content and expansions every three years, OR increase the sub price to compensate for increased payroll.
Which one would you suggest?

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Pretty sure SE is actively looking for more staff, so filling current openings aren't going to increase sub price lol

More staff for what positions?
What is SE's accepted cost vs. expense ratio in FFXIV?
What is SE's minimum profit ratio in FFXIV to remain viable to continue?

Again, big picture.

Now we are acting like SE is some small indi team. That is not about the big picture SE has the resources to do both.

I'm glad you have access to SE's financials, please share.

Without knowing what percentage of income is net profit for the entire SE company or how much is budgeted to the CBU3, "they have the resources to do both" is pure conjecture on your part.
I'll assume you've never owned a company, am I right?

We are all entitled to our own opinions.
With that in mind and the fact that this isn't the topic of this thread, I'll bow out now .

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

I'm glad you have access to SE's financials, please share.

Without knowing what percentage of income is net profit for the entire SE company or how much is budgeted to the CBU3, "they have the resources to do both" is pure conjecture on your part.
I'll assume you've never owned a company, am I right?

We are all entitled to our own opinions.
With that in mind and the fact that this isn't the topic of this thread, I'll bow out now .

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It is a choice SE makes to not allocate more resources into FFXIV, and use the revenue generated from FFXIV into other projects. Let us not pretend SE if they wanted to does not have the resources to do both, unless you believe SE is running at a financial deficit.

Sure it may increase overhead and thus decrease overall profits but this is then getting into a different topic regarding on what major corporations do to maximize profits. Though it is disingenuous to claim SE is not capable of funding a more robust special forces and a GM / community team. They just do nor because they do not feel it is worth it.

Not a CEO, but I am a partner, sure if we cut some corners skimmed some some staff we could reduce overhead, or shift some production cost onto the customer, reduce healthcare costs etc . . .Instead we choose to take the hit to maximize customer and employee satisfaction. That said we only have one product. Things are different for major corporations that are juggling multiple products. That said I doubt SE is hurting and I doubt it would have a major impact on profits. In the end one of the quickest and cleanest ways to reduce overhead is the CS department. So I get it, in terms of importance for a major corporation it is probably the least important aspect.

End of the day FFXIV is most likely the product that gets just enough funding to stay relevant and profitable. Given enough to add features that keep it fresh and draw in new people. Hell I would not even be shocked if most their budget was allocated to marketing.

looking at that mog station store and the 50 buck mounts and 30 buck 1 character limited glamour, they got money

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

I'm glad you have access to SE's financials, please share.

Without knowing what percentage of income is net profit for the entire SE company or how much is budgeted to the CBU3, "they have the resources to do both" is pure conjecture on your part.
I'll assume you've never owned a company, am I right?

We are all entitled to our own opinions.
With that in mind and the fact that this isn't the topic of this thread, I'll bow out now .

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https://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ir/library/ar.html

Contains the link to se 2022 financial report

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Originally Posted by raelgun

https://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ir/library/ar.html

Contains the link to se 2022 financial report

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A Relevant Snippet:

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Net sales and operating income in the Digital Entertainment segment totaled ¥279,679 million (an increase of 6.0% from the prior fiscal year), and ¥58,960 million (an increase of 16.7% from the prior fiscal year), respectively.

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Are ya winning son?

What!? After 86 pages they still haven't agreed to your own point of view? Well maybe within the next 86 pages they will finally see your side.

Keep at it Champ!

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Are ya winning son?

What!? After 86 pages they still haven't agreed to your own point of view? Well maybe within the next 86 pages they will finally see your side.

Keep at it Champ!

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The irony is mind, with open data, facts were given, kinda relevant to the topic.

Not even being toxic in any way either.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be clear, though, I don't think even bringing just a scribble (a raw dps parser) to an art show (what all is usefully doable) would outright add any toxicity, nor is my problem with such basic tools that they're live.

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So, anything else aside, the reason I think having a DPS meter built into the game would increase visible/open toxicity is not because the DPS meter itself is inherently toxic, but because in every game community you have a non-zero number of jerks. And in my experience, the jerks in question will sometimes feel like the game giving them performance information is permission to be jerks.

Or, as I've put it in other threads, "if the devs didn't want us telling the black mage they're doing less DPS than a dead healer, they wouldn't give us the numbers to know that!"

I'm not sure that obscuring the information necessarily reduces toxicity, but it (generally) makes the jerks in question less likely to be openly such jerks, simply because some are likely to stay quiet not because they think of "using this information to be a jerk" as being wrong, but because the act of openly admitting to having that information in-game is itself a TOS violation.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

And in my experience, the jerks in question will sometimes feel like the game giving them performance information is permission to be jerks.

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Admittedly, my experience has largely been the opposite: that people tend to be especially jerks when the facts are still in question, leaving room to push oneself up at others expense.

Given conflicting anecdotes, perhaps we should approach it more from a hypothetical? If I give you a thermometer, do you feel like you've been given implicit permission to cuss out others' cooking?

There's a point at which, yes, one could point to the numbers and rightly say "You are getting us repeatedly crushed," be it in a video game or by confinement to a toilet, but... seeing the numbers isn't what triggered that. They merely measure a fact already there, already visible through the wipes or the evenings/mornings after your friend's undercooked meals.



Feel free to swap out my analogy, as none will be a perfect fit but you could probably do better than my spitball here, but... I'm not yet seeing the warrant there. At worst, I suspect that with X span of information being made more convenient, all that is not-X might be faintly obscured (say, the value of non-rDPS utility, etc.) until the community (re)discovers how to account for it, but that, while complex, doesn't lend itself to an increase in toxicity.

A lack of tool still comprises an interface, after all, complete with all its own biases (many of which are far less comprehensive, well-weighed, or telling, even, than raw dps); it's just one ruled by whatever is most easily eyeballed (late raidbuffs, deaths, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

You're not looking at the big picture though.

There are two ways a company deals with increased workload.
1. increase manpower by shifting workers from other activities, ie. content, or
2. increase manpower by increasing staff, more money.

So, we either end up with less content less often, ie. pushing out patches every 6 months with less content and expansions every three years, OR increase the sub price to compensate for increased payroll.
Which one would you suggest?

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1. You know nothing of how videogame industry work if you think they would take someone from, let say the sound design team to go be a GM in game.
2. They are currently hiring.

Sub price and content developement time has nothing to do with Game master. you're just talking out of your ass.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Are ya winning son?

What!? After 86 pages they still haven't agreed to your own point of view? Well maybe within the next 86 pages they will finally see your side.

Keep at it Champ!

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Yes, let stop supporting anything people can't agree on and never update the game. Someone think endwalker should be the last xpac? Well to bad we never get 7.0 unless forum change his mind!

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Yes, let stop supporting anything people can't agree on and never update the game. Someone think endwalker should be the last xpac? Well to bad we never get 7.0 unless forum change his mind!

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Are you high? I've said nothing about stopping everything about the game. I just think it's stupid to try to change someone's mind over something as simple as "Damage meters". You are either for it or against it and unless you can summon a primal yourself...you aren't changing their mind. For EITHER side. If it hasn't happened in this many pages...do you PERSONALLY think you can do it within the next 86? I invite you to try.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Are you high? I've said nothing about stopping everything about the game. I just think it's stupid to try to change someone's mind over something as simple as "Damage meters". You are either for it or against it and unless you can summon a primal yourself...you aren't changing their mind. For EITHER side. If it hasn't happened in this many pages...do you PERSONALLY think you can do it within the next 86? I invite you to try.

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https://i.imgur.com/WllLtNQ.gif

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Originally Posted by Joven

https://i.imgur.com/WllLtNQ.gif

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Vaas can always tell me the definition of insanity...again and again.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Are you high? I've said nothing about stopping everything about the game. I just think it's stupid to try to change someone's mind over something as simple as "Damage meters".

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It isn't particularly simple though, as 87 pages (even if bloated by... none too productive of posts) of complicating contexts have demonstrated. You're making the case that, for example, "it's just one button" to an EW Summoner on the verge of losing Ruin IV with no replacement (or, say, that casters should [not] be able to precast / change targets mid-cast); there's a lot more history and precedent bundled up in this, and far more at stake because of what all is intertwined with it.

Worse, "There will be no changing of minds anyways," has only ever been a prelude to loss.


The current policies have done more harm than good, and have increasingly denied players means to improve, or even know that they should, by arming them with threats against anyone who might tell them otherwise. It has deepened divides, and formed whole meta-groupings of players, not per some more natural spectrum of how much they enjoy engaging with combat and its little points here and there of optimization, but instead per boogieman dichotomies of "(toxic) elitists" and "(lazy) casuals." There is amble gains to be had through improvements to the way the game handles these things.

Now, that's not to say that a raw DPS parser is some cure-all, either, but it's something whose appearance would require those policies to be reevaluated.

Nor would --or should-- it stop there. You could instead have the default render its measure as relative potency dealt, as not to be so swayed by primary stat. You could dually have it show buff value given and owed. You could as easily have something many other metrics tracked, allow players to set their own holistic means of personal evaluation by accounting as they wish around avoidable damage, mitigation, healing efficiency -- whatever they may take interest in, atop a default or different imported weights. You could easily include after-action reports, or even allow players to check their (breaks in) rotation. Etc., etc.

How much trouble are you all having clearing roulettes? If you're out there chasing world first or best parses you already know what to use and have the tools available to do so. The only thing adding meters in game for everything will do get people to berate players for not doing the same DPS in a dungeon roulette that the top players are doing in savage with BiS. It is also completely unnecessary, I can't be just lucky enough to do the 90 and expert roulette 4 or 5 times a week and have them take no longer than 15 minutes each.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Vaas can always tell me the definition of insanity...again and again.

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Such a great villain only to be relegated to a side character.

We don’t need this. Outside of savage it is irrelevant. In the end, it would just be toxic and it would lead to several people greeding dps instead of doing what they are supposed to.

Many don’t even know how to interpret the results anyway. Not all jobs are equal (i.e. if everyone knows their job, a dancer will normally parse lower on single target - many don’t know about rdps) and there are huge gear discrepancies when joining duty finder.

Numbers also don’t tell everything: a healer can have the biggest healing numbers but no dps, summoners or rdm may had to spend time rezzing people, someone may have gotten cleaved through no fault of their own (got the tank booster on a dancer last week in Aglaia because our tank was dead - defensives and being at full health could not save me and I had to wait to be rezzed and eat the penalty), etc. A lot of things can happen in duty finder.

I give my comms in priority to people who do good overall. For example, it can be a tank who positions the mobs and the bosses properly and uses mitigation appropriately, a dps who does mechanics well and takes little avoidable damage or a healer who heals well while dpsing or who has to constantly keep raising people who don’t know what they are doing. I can also give my comm to someone doing a decent overall first run or someone who, despite errors, made efforts, accepted recommendations and appears willing to learn.

If people suck overall, if you kept standing in stupid, if you are a prick (regardless of how good you do), someone who just kept running ahead of the tank, a healer who didn’t dps or a tank who needlessly kept moving around, cleaving the group or wasn’t mitigating damage, I give no comms.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

The only thing adding meters in game for everything will do get people to berate players for not doing the same DPS in a dungeon roulette that the top players are doing in savage with BiS.

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I mean, the main reason I would be in favor of adding a personal meter and analysis tool is for the sake of console players.

On PC, you can run a parser and then break down your log and look at "Oh, I am forgetting to refresh my DoT in the middle of healing people up" or "I'm letting this slip from where it should be lined up" or even just wail on a training dummy and check whether Food A or Food B seems to work better for raw damage for you, etc.

If you play on console, you are out-of-luck. This isn't to say that console players cannot clear high-end content; demonstrably they can. But I know a lot of competent console players who have relied on a PC friend to come log them pounding on a training dummy so that they have those logs to analyze.

Having some sort of tool for your own analysis and self-improvement built-in... I feel like that would benefit console players greatly. But I don't think it needs to be a general tell-you-everyone's-numbers damage meter.

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Numbers also don’t tell everything: a healer can have the biggest healing numbers but no dps, summoners or rdm may had to spend time rezzing people, someone may have gotten cleaved through no fault of their own (got the tank booster on a dancer last week in Aglaia because our tank was dead - defensives and being at full health could not save me and I had to wait to be rezzed and eat the penalty), etc. A lot of things can happen in duty finder.

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The numbers would tell us: the healer didn't DPS, the amount of people the SMN ressed and if a non-tank died to a tankbuster. Like, I'm perfectly fine with the "situation" we have now, as I don't play on console, but of all examples you gave the numbers would tell us everything.

I find it pretty weird for a game that put DPS checks in a duty to not allow us to... Check our DPS. The damage dealt to a dummy (SSS) does not translate to the damage dealt in the actual fight. And when you're wiping over and over again to a 5% and you can't tell that's because the MCH forgot Drill at home and the RDM is dual casting Jolt, it's problematic. Thankfully the community found a "way" around it, but the community shouldn't be responsible for solving problems that the devs create not by a design choice, but by business choice, as they don't want to allocate people to develop the meter and deal with the possible harassment that comes out of it.

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Originally Posted by Nanara

The numbers would tell us: the healer didn't DPS, the amount of people the SMN ressed and if a non-tank died to a tankbuster. Like, I'm perfectly fine with the "situation" we have now, as I don't play on console, but of all examples you gave the numbers would tell us everything.

I find it pretty weird for a game that put DPS checks in a duty to not allow us to... Check our DPS. The damage dealt to a dummy (SSS) does not translate to the damage dealt in the actual fight. And when you're wiping over and over again to a 5% and you can't tell that's because the MCH forgot Drill at home and the RDM is dual casting Jolt, it's problematic. Thankfully the community found a "way" around it, but the community shouldn't be responsible for solving problems that the devs create not by a design choice, but by business choice, as they don't want to allocate people to develop the meter and deal with the possible harassment that comes out of it.

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I'm always been on the side that the Devs want an DPS meter but getting such a thing past Sony is the actual issue.
Sony has always been the issue for a lot of things, and SE can't say it cos money.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

We don’t need this. Outside of savage it is irrelevant. In the end, it would just be toxic and it would lead to several people greeding dps instead of doing what they are supposed to.

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New 24 person raid (2nd boss) has a hard dps enrage, my group got it less than 1m so it might be relevant. Also EX's routinely have enrage. If you hit enrage, it's a DPS problem, knowing who is dying or who is doing half their dps they should be is important information.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

New 24 person raid (2nd boss) has a hard dps enrage, my group got it less than 1m so it might be relevant. Also EX's routinely have enrage. If you hit enrage, it's a DPS problem, knowing who is dying or who is doing half their dps they should be is important information.

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I'm not sure but in our run they lost the "I win" buff once one of them died, we were still unsure if they have some level of shared health though since the other one was already fairly low too or mechanic that prevents from focusing one down first.

Just get rid of dps checks in bosses. Boom, no more need for parses if it kills the main reason for why theyre needed.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Just get rid of dps checks in bosses. Boom, no more need for parses if it kills the main reason for why theyre needed.

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The 4 RDM meta

Myself
Firemage
Need 2 more insufferable RDMs

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Just get rid of dps checks in bosses. Boom, no more need for parses if it kills the main reason for why theyre needed.

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Eh, mean others can say what they want but I prefer them as I would prefer to play with better then your average ff14 player.
People need to just accept good players just want to play with other good players and if they want to exclude, that's fine.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

I'm not sure but in our run they lost the "I win" buff once one of them died, we were still unsure if they have some level of shared health though since the other one was already fairly low too or mechanic that prevents from focusing one down first.

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One of them will share health when brought down much lower than their companion. It is also not exactly on 8m timer because the two bosses still need to do a few more RPing & dialogues before actually going untargetable to perform the enrage. I've got to see this enrage twice so far and it was a very messy day 1 run (as we should all expect!). I doubt I'll be seeing that cool enrage animation anytime beyond week 1.

You are correct about losing the buff should one of them dies first, though. This happened on my last run, one of them simply stopped their RP'ing.