Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The problem with this is that many of those "casuals" are the most selfish people in the game. With their I don't care how my performance is ruining everyone elses fun so I dont need to learn my job attitudes aloing with their super insane levels of entitlement absolutely crushing the signinficance and value of in game stuff for everyone else for no reason other than "because I want it"

This is quite literally the most selfish thing in the game.. Absolutely no one prevents them from getting something the same way everyone else does but their own laziness and entitlement is pure selfishness.

Why shoulld I make an effort I cant be arsed. Who cares if iIm dragging 3, 7, 23 other people down.....

And then they're the ones who say the "good" players are the selfish "elitist" ones..

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I was replying to someone who wondered why people looked down on them being incredibly selfish who didn't seem to notice their take WAS selfish. I've already said my peace on what OP can do about his problem.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

The bads did not want to improve. So instead of reflecting on themselves and reading a guide, they blamed the "elitist".

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And the Elitist did not want to help, so instead of reflecting upon themselves and treating other players with consideration, they blamed the "casual."

Isn't being pithy fun?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I was replying to someone who wondered why people looked down on them being incredibly selfish who didn't seem to notice their take WAS selfish. I've already said my peace on what OP can do about his problem.

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Oh I did notice my take was selfish more so I never understood why people view selfishness as an inherently undesirable trait.

In the end I probably could have phrased it better, and I need to understand that my stances differ greatly from what would be considered normal.

Though yes I do diverge from what many would be consider normal social etiquette or norms.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

And the Elitist did not want to help, so instead of reflecting upon themselves and treating other players with consideration, they blamed the "casual."

Isn't being pithy fun?

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It is my dude.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Bruh, I just want us to respect each others time. Its a simple thing that you've got twisted into me having some sort of complex. Six years of having to deal with people not respecting the time of others makes a person bitter.

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See, that's your problem. You don't know that they aren't trying to respect your time. You aren't there with them behind the screen. You aren't in their head. You view anything less than what you want someone else to do as a personal affront and something they are doing to you deliberately. But a lot of them are just relaxing after a hard day, or getting some time in while the baby is asleep, or are still struggling to get that rotation just right, or any number of things. They are not setting out to ruin your day or not meet your expectations. They have no idea what your expectations are. You let the game randomly match yourself with them.

The only person that's making you bitter is yourself. If you stopped trying to visit your internal expectations of what is "perfect" on everyone else and just tried to enjoy the run and the camaraderie, you wouldn't find them so unbearable.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

See, that's your problem. You don't know that they aren't trying to respect your time. You aren't there with them behind the screen. You aren't in their head. You view anything less than what you want someone else to do as a personal affront and something they are doing to you deliberately. But a lot of them are just relaxing after a hard day, or getting some time in while the baby is asleep, or are still struggling to get that rotation just right, or any number of things. They are not setting out to ruin your day or not meet your expectations. They have no idea what your expectations are. You let the game randomly match yourself with them.

The only person that's making you bitter is yourself. If you stopped trying to visit your internal expectations of what is "perfect" on everyone else and just tried to enjoy the run and the camaraderie, you wouldn't find them so unbearable.

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Its hard to find common ground when they aren't even trying to be your equal, and you are having to drag them across the finish line.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The only person that's making you bitter is yourself. If you stopped trying to visit your internal expectations of what is "perfect" on everyone else and just tried to enjoy the run and the camaraderie, you wouldn't find them so unbearable.

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He can't stop. The numbers on his screen corner keep reminding him that he's carrying the weight of the playerbase on his shoulders. His only hope is to rouse the impassioned masses into doing "something" to the "parasites" so that he will finally be able to enjoy the game and put an end to "Eeyore"-ing to whoever listens.

Oh and his crusade against bars and venues, even the normal the ones.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

He can't stop. The numbers on his screen corner keep reminding him that he's carrying the weight of the playerbase on his shoulders. His only hope is to rouse the impassioned masses into doing "something" to the "parasites" so that he will finally be able to enjoy the game and put an end to "Eeyore"-ing to whoever listens.

Oh and his crusade against bars and venues, even the normal the ones.

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Disappointing, I thought you above the filth that infects Siren. You were so close to the truth, but you deflect it. Sad, really.

I been reading this awhile, and want to add my perspective on this very long back and forth.

This is going to be a ramble, so if you read it. Kudos.


A very long time ago, when I was much younger I played EQ, did some raiding and did not know much about min/maxing. After all..I was a ranger. Endless quiver/sow bot.

Got into wow, and my views of mmorpg changed. I was a raid leader, and a toxic one at that. If you want to do end game content, you should play your best or at least try your best. If you failed more than once on the same thing. You had to bring a repair bot for the people you failed. We geared you out, and that gear you used belongs to all of us. That was the guild pride. Many expansions later, I gained a disability, and I can no longer play as good as I once was. I am sure I could find people that would accept that, but it is a me problem. I can't accept it, and to this day struggle to accept it.

Now, I play a MMO with my wife...and she is the type of player that use to make me rage. She would look at a class, pick what skills she liked and did not like and use the ones she only liked.
When I told her that is not good dps. She would be like so? I'm like, don't you want to improve? She said sure I do, in the way that is fun to me.

Watching her fail and laugh, smile and have fun in games that I use to take serious. I understand that it was not her playing the game wrong. It was me.

My point of this story is, I'm glad this game protects her from people like me, Who would try and teach her or be upset and lash out at her for wasting my time. This game to get through the story content, it sometimes requires us to group. So i am glad that I can have some peace of mind knowing that if people try and ruin her way of thinking or fun. They can get in trouble. It is not anyone place.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Disappointing, I thought you above the filth that infects Siren. You were so close to the truth, but you deflect it. Sad, really.

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And this is the problem right here folks. OP looks upon players who are not up to their personal standards as filth. Not people. This is why it is completely useless to explain to them that not everyone "below" them is intending to be a parasite. If they can't see them as people, then they will never accept the human reasons why people play the way that they do.

There is a word for a person like this but I'm going to refrain from using it. I'm sure many of you know exactly what I mean.

Why is this thread still going. :L

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Why is this thread still going. :L

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It is a pretty good read, I mean people have strong opinions on the matter.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Why is this thread still going. :L

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https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...Hl6nbwwa310jGI

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Originally Posted by Penthea

And this is the problem right here folks. OP looks upon players who are not up to their personal standards as filth. Not people. This is why it is completely useless to explain to them that not everyone "below" them is intending to be a parasite. If they can't see them as people, then they will never accept the human reasons why people play the way that they do.

There is a word for a person like this but I'm going to refrain from using it. I'm sure many of you know exactly what I mean.

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I'm having a hard time thinking they're remotely serious anymore.. that's like a supervillain monologue there.

It's all attention, even if it's negative attention, and some people don't care as long as the 'spotlight' is focused on them for whatever reason.

Mans is villain monologueing for attention. Carry on, folks.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

And this is the problem right here folks. OP looks upon players who are not up to their personal standards as filth. Not people. This is why it is completely useless to explain to them that not everyone "below" them is intending to be a parasite. If they can't see them as people, then they will never accept the human reasons why people play the way that they do.

There is a word for a person like this but I'm going to refrain from using it. I'm sure many of you know exactly what I mean.

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I was referring to what goes on in Siren as filth, not players at large. Visit sometime, you might gain a better understanding.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I was referring to what goes on in Siren as filth, not players at large. Visit sometime, you might gain a better understanding.

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None of us have to go anywhere. We're looking right at it.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

None of us have to go anywhere. We're looking right at it.

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Hey doc, how are things?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I was referring to what goes on in Siren as filth, not players at large. Visit sometime, you might gain a better understanding.

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Time and time again you have absolutely refused to entertain the idea that anyone below your standards isn't a parasite. You assume the absolute worst in people. This is not a Siren issue. This is a you issue.

No one is saying you have to enjoy a person's bad performance, they just want you to understand that bad performance doesn't automatically mean a bad person. I'm terrible at math. Does this make me a bad person? Does this make me a parasite? Of course it doesn't. And it's the same with playing games. You can do something badly without malicious intentions.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

None of us have to go anywhere. We're looking right at it.

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At this point.../thread

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Disappointing, I thought you above the filth that infects Siren. You were so close to the truth, but you deflect it. Sad, really.

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*Laughs uncontrollably*

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Originally Posted by Penthea

At this point.../thread

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Agreed. I'm done as well. This was entertaining but all...good? bad? things must come to an end.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

*Laughs uncontrollably*




Agreed. I'm done as well. This was entertaining but all...good? bad? things must come to an end.

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Typical Siren. Enjoy your questionable activities.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

*Laughs uncontrollably*




Agreed. I'm done as well. This was entertaining but all...good? bad? things must come to an end.

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It was /thread back on what... page 10ish? Mans is just looking for attention lmfao

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

It was /thread back on what... page 10ish? Mans is just looking for attention lmfao

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By all means keep trying to mic drop.

Once long a ago a player who we will call FRED as I wont mention their actual forum name. Came along complaining about server populations during the whole locked down mess. Fred was errogant, dismissive, sarcastic to anyone who disagreed with them. Talking to Fred was like talking to a 10ft thick brick wall...POINTLESS. kinda like how replying to the OP has become pointless.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

... who are picking a job, or even the game, back up after not playing it for a bit, and they're a little rusty.

We're defending the players who recently swapped around a few things on their hotbars and are still getting used to things (the training dummy doesn't help me remember I put my interrupt over here)

The players who had a bad/hard day and just want to relax, so they que into a flippin dungeon (no stakes) to see SAM go brrr.

The players who went into content, and then through no fault of their own have something IRL asking for their attention and distracting them.

The players who've trying, but don't yet realize they're missing something, or performing their rotation non-optimally, and don't deserve ire and blacklisting for the incredible transgression of maybe making an alliance raid take a little longer.

We're defending people who aren't doing anything wrong or malicious, yet are being attacked behind their backs.

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This is it.

There this weird notion in this thread in that those who are disagree with the OP's stance also support people who trolls or people who get mad when other players trying to reasonably give them advice. No we're--or at least I am--not.

Just try... to be more empathetic with others.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I been reading this awhile, and want to add my perspective on this very long back and forth.

This is going to be a ramble, so if you read it. Kudos.


A very long time ago, when I was much younger I played EQ, did some raiding and did not know much about min/maxing. After all..I was a ranger. Endless quiver/sow bot.

Got into wow, and my views of mmorpg changed. I was a raid leader, and a toxic one at that. If you want to do end game content, you should play your best or at least try your best. If you failed more than once on the same thing. You had to bring a repair bot for the people you failed. We geared you out, and that gear you used belongs to all of us. That was the guild pride. Many expansions later, I gained a disability, and I can no longer play as good as I once was. I am sure I could find people that would accept that, but it is a me problem. I can't accept it, and to this day struggle to accept it.

Now, I play a MMO with my wife...and she is the type of player that use to make me rage. She would look at a class, pick what skills she liked and did not like and use the ones she only liked.
When I told her that is not good dps. She would be like so? I'm like, don't you want to improve? She said sure I do, in the way that is fun to me.

Watching her fail and laugh, smile and have fun in games that I use to take serious. I understand that it was not her playing the game wrong. It was me.

My point of this story is, I'm glad this game protects her from people like me. Who would try and teach her or be upset and lash out because I could not understand her perspective and why she is wasting my time. This game to go through the story content it sometimes requires us to group. So i am glad that I have some peace of mind knowing that if people try and ruin her way of thinking or fun. They can get in trouble. It is not anyone place.

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Thank you for acting like a decent human being. That's a lovely story about your wife.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

This is it.

There this weird notion in this thread in that those who are disagree with the OP's stance also support people who trolls or people who get mad when other players trying to reasonably give them advice. No we're--or at least I am--not.

Just try... to be more empathetic with others.



Thank you for acting like a decent human being. That's a lovely story about your wife.

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I try, like I have another friend who plays, but he uses only trusts. He hates grouping with players because of the abuse he got from players in another mmo giving him anxitety, This community is much better, but some scars are really hard to heal and kindness can't always fix it. (reason why I hope one day they add duo trusts, so I can help him out.).

He still enjoys the social elements, talking to people and crafting/market stuff. Just trials and dungeons triggers it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

My point of this story is, I'm glad this game protects her from people like me, Who would try and teach her or be upset and lash out at her for wasting my time. This game to get through the story content, it sometimes requires us to group. So i am glad that I can have some peace of mind knowing that if people try and ruin her way of thinking or fun. They can get in trouble. It is not anyone place.

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Honestly, I followed you right until this part.
The fact that you agree with practice people getting banned for offering an advice is yikes.

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

Honestly, I followed you right until this part.
The fact that you agree with practice people getting banned for offering an advice is yikes.

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Your missing the point, If she asks for advice you should give it. Unless you are in a linkshell and or guild that has a set rules on how skilled you should be.

Wanting to help people is fine, but throwing out advice in party or at least not respecting them enough to ask in whispers if they would like some, and if they say no thank you. That is it.



Do you know how often players just openly start giving advice to players, as if they should? It is a public group with no set rules on how anyone should play.

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

Honestly, I followed you right until this part.
The fact that you agree with practice people getting banned for offering an advice is yikes.

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Why in bloody hell do you actually think that he is suggesting anyone offering advice to her wife should be banned.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

Why in bloody hell do you actually think that he is suggesting anyone offering advice to her wife should be banned.

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Ya i don't understand, It is 3 am for me and my typing skills is lacking. So it might have been my wording.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Your missing the point, If she asks for advice you should give it. Unless you are in a linkshell and or guild that has a set rules on how skilled you should be.

Wanting to help people is fine, but throwing out advice in party or at least not respecting them enough to ask in whispers if they would like some, and if they say no thank you. That is it.

Do you know how often players just openly start giving advice to players, as if they should? It is a public group with no set rules on how anyone should play.

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Asking isn't really a requirement either. If you don't care about your performance, you wouldn't take it either way, regardless of whether someone asked you or not.

And i would argue giving "advice without consent" is still better for player experience than silent kick that some people do to not bother.

Also actual mentors (not bk crown ones) are probably having time of their life when the game tells them to help players, and then others tell them that giving advice is bad "unless asked"

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

Why in bloody hell do you actually think that he is suggesting anyone offering advice to her wife should be banned.

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I'm glad this game protects her from people like me, Who would try and teach her or be upset and lash out at her for wasting my time. So i am glad that I can have some peace of mind knowing that if people try and ruin her way of thinking or fun. They can get in trouble

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The only trouble ever that anyone ever gets are warnings/bans thanks to ToS abuse (and yeah i consider current state of tos to be "open to abuse").

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

The only trouble ever that anyone ever gets are warnings/bans thanks to ToS abuse (and yeah i consider current state of tos to be "open to abuse").

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Hmm, I guess I can see why you think that way, I apologize.

But I really don't think he means that anyone giving advice to his wife should be banned. Just be reasonable about it and it should be fine.

And give the guy some break, he seems sleepy, hahaha.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

Hmm, I guess I can see why you think that way, I apologize.

But I really don't think he means that anyone giving advice to his wife should be banned. Just be reasonable about it and it should be fine.

And give the guy some break, he seems sleepy, hahaha.

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Yeah im not currently at my best myself, 3 hours of sleep didn't do me justice, i can already see grammar mistakes in my previous post lol

And yeah i agree, just think that it could've been worded better in that case, but its usual for 3am

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

Asking isn't really a requirement either. If you don't care about your performance, you wouldn't take it either way, regardless of whether someone asked you or not.

And i would argue giving "advice without consent" is still better for player experience than silent kick that some people do to not bother.

Also actual mentors (not bk crown ones) are probably having time of their life when the game tells them to help players, and then others tell them that giving advice is bad "unless asked"






The only trouble ever that anyone ever gets are warnings/bans thanks to ToS abuse (and yeah i consider current state of tos to be "open to abuse").

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I can see why you think that, and I did not mean it like that. My bad.


I've seen how it makes people feel to openly give advice in front of others, it makes people defensive, and some it makes them feel bad. Like they are failing the group. That is why I say asking shows more respect to the person. Ya that person does not to do it. Have you ever saw someone try to help someone in the group and they get super defensive?


Correcting people in front of others makes them feel bad. I know this because when I was a raid leader, I weaponize it. So I came off protective with that last comment my bad.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I was replying to someone who wondered why people looked down on them being incredibly selfish who didn't seem to notice their take WAS selfish. I've already said my peace on what OP can do about his problem.

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I can see where they're coming from.

Inherently no one's time is more valuable than your own because it is 'your time' however that means it makes sense to treat people the way you want to be treated in hopes to increase the chance of them respecting your time.
The opposite side of that is anyone disrespecting your time does not deserve your time, the reason is really irrelevant but I just thought I would put that thought process out there.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I been reading this awhile, and want to add my perspective on this very long back and forth.

This is going to be a ramble, so if you read it. Kudos.


A very long time ago, when I was much younger I played EQ, did some raiding and did not know much about min/maxing. After all..I was a ranger. Endless quiver/sow bot.

Got into wow, and my views of mmorpg changed. I was a raid leader, and a toxic one at that. If you want to do end game content, you should play your best or at least try your best. If you failed more than once on the same thing. You had to bring a repair bot for the people you failed. We geared you out, and that gear you used belongs to all of us. That was the guild pride. Many expansions later, I gained a disability, and I can no longer play as good as I once was. I am sure I could find people that would accept that, but it is a me problem. I can't accept it, and to this day struggle to accept it.

Now, I play a MMO with my wife...and she is the type of player that use to make me rage. She would look at a class, pick what skills she liked and did not like and use the ones she only liked.
When I told her that is not good dps. She would be like so? I'm like, don't you want to improve? She said sure I do, in the way that is fun to me.

Watching her fail and laugh, smile and have fun in games that I use to take serious. I understand that it was not her playing the game wrong. It was me.

My point of this story is, I'm glad this game protects her from people like me, Who would try and teach her or be upset and lash out at her for wasting my time. This game to get through the story content, it sometimes requires us to group. So i am glad that I can have some peace of mind knowing that if people try and ruin her way of thinking or fun. They can get in trouble. It is not anyone place.

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This is very similar to RPing in public dungeons/areas/runs

It's nice that your wife is having fun and there are places for that mentality but she should also respect that her way of playing is unique and that it warrants annoyance from most people as she is disrespecting the time of anyone she plays with intentionally, this is fine in a controlled group of friends but with randoms it's not their responsibility to play along. Other than that have fun the way you want to have fun.

"Remember only your fun matters, not the people playing with you. They might as well be npcs, and they are there to serve you." -Great Community

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

I can see where they're coming from.

Inherently no one's time is more valuable than your own because it is 'your time' however that means it makes sense to treat people the way you want to be treated in hopes to increase the chance of them respecting your time.
The opposite side of that is anyone disrespecting your time does not deserve your time, the reason is really irrelevant but I just thought I would put that thought process out there.



This is very similar to RPing in public dungeons/areas/runs

It's nice that your wife is having fun and there are places for that mentality but she should also respect that her way of playing is unique and that it warrants annoyance from most people as she is disrespecting the time of anyone she plays with intentionally, this is fine in a controlled group of friends but with randoms it's not their responsibility to play along. Other than that have fun the way you want to have fun.

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I'd say as long as her way of playing is not causing wipes or anything like that, that she's fine to play how she wants. I'd imagine that any content that's required for the MSQ is probably forgiving enough for most play styles.

points to ToS Section 3.2 this is the very rule you agreed to follow when you signed up for an account for this game aka you have 0 reason to complain now that I've masterfully deconstructed this thread how about we move on

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

I'd say as long as her way of playing is not causing wipes or anything like that, that she's fine to play how she wants. I'd imagine that any content that's required for the MSQ is probably forgiving enough for most play styles.

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Half the time there is no wipe because 2 or 3 of the 4 are playing their jobs right, not because "it's MSQ so you can play however".

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Half the time there is no wipe because 2 or 3 of the 4 are playing their jobs right, not because "it's MSQ so you can play however".

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Which is why I said that she could play as she likes in MSQ content because it is forgiving of most things if other players are playing closer to the meta.