Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's impressive how much effort you all put into being completely socially inept.

As for this being a great community... eh. I've played a lot of MMO's and I wouldn't say this is one of the better ones community wise. It is a great game, though.

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Then I got news for you: you certainly don't help make the community better.

It is as if you don't read your own responses and realize just how hypocritical they come off as.

You want everyone doing everything for you. You don't want to speak up; you rather someone do it for you. You encourage blacklisting you because "it keeps me away from the trolls!!!!" You seek petty revenge because you feel "harassed" by a healer rescuing you. You wish for the skill to be changed because "da trolls" and ignore the responses that tells you otherwise.

It's clear this topic didn't go the way you wanted it to and thanks to your overblown ego, it got changed to people calling you out on your entitlement.

And I know that you'll nitpick this message too and only pick around the areas that benefit your argument because that's what you've done since you've started this topic. Have fun promoting your own blacklisting! I'm sure that is going to go well.

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I believe i explained why the strangers youre with expect you to behave a certain way, as it is the most logical an beneficial in the vast majority of cases. Except you ignored that part. If there is a general way something is done and you want to do it differently then the onus is on you to communicate not the other way around, expecting everyone to declare their intentions is unreasonable especially as explained (which you ignored) it makes the most sense to do it one way over another.

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What you're stating here isn't a rule the game enforces; it's a preference that you have regarding other peoples playstyles. If you don't share your preferences then the tank is going to perform his role in the way he's most comfortable with.

Your opinions and preferences aren't known entities or rules that other people will have committed to memory. These aren't your friends, family or even acquaintances; they're strangers. If you don't communicate with them your preferences won't be regarded. Plenty of healers don't care if the tank pulls slow, and plenty of healers do actually ASK for big pulls; so this little rule of yours isn't even community enforced. This is all your personal social ineptitude.

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Then I got news for you: you certainly don't help make the community better.

It is as if you don't read your own responses and realize just how hypocritical they come off as.

You want everyone doing everything for you. You don't want to speak up; you rather someone do it for you. You encourage blacklisting you because "it keeps me away from the trolls!!!!" You seek petty revenge because you feel "harassed" by a healer rescuing you. You wish for the skill to be changed because "da trolls" and ignore the responses that tells you otherwise.

It's clear this topic didn't go the way you wanted it to and thanks to your overblown ego, it got changed to people calling you out on your entitlement.

And I know that you'll nitpick this message too and only pick around the areas that benefit your argument because that's what you've done since you've started this topic. Have fun promoting your own blacklisting! I'm sure that is going to go well.

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I never said I made things better. Bad communities tend to bring out the worst in me. I'm also, however, a pretty nice person when around other nice people.

This community just seems to like to be disrespectful and pick fights; and I've always been the type to fight back.

This topic went exactly how I wanted it to; in that I wanted to say my piece about Rescue. I could care less who agrees with me and who doesn't, I'm just venting.

I've adjusted my stance to simply changing Rescue into a toggle that people can opt out of, though, which you conveniently ignored.

Also, I'm not the one who brought up Blacklisting. Other people decided to inform me of their decision to do that to me, like it would actually have an impact on me. I was simply responding.

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This is a judgment call on the healer, and the more the healer participates in content where the use of Rescue will undoubtedly come up, and the more aware the healer is of other jobs and the encounter; the better they get with those judgments.

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I'm sure I'm approaching my post limit, so I'm just gonna do this.

The intent is obviously in the name of the ability; the rest is just you rationalizing. If you feel like the intent of the ability is to force tanks to pull more than they want to then by all means keep telling yourself that. That's pretty obviously a misuse, exploitative and disruptive, though.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Using Rescue on players for reasons other than rescuing them is exploitative. The abilities intent is pretty obvious, and you're misusing it intentionally to disrupt another persons play.

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The only thing obvious about Rescue is what the ability does:

https://i.imgur.com/6wM0WV0.png?1

Nothing has ever been stated that this ability is intended for rescue purposes only. You are getting this impression from the name of the ability itself. I would even wager that translations in other languages have this ability named something other than 'Rescue'. Now it is definitely wrong to use Rescue to intentionally disrupt a person's play; no argument there. However, there is no way to use Rescue without disrupting whatever it was the player was doing. The question is was the use of Rescue beneficial enough to warrant disrupting what that player was doing.

This is a judgment call on the healer, and the more the healer participates in content where the use of Rescue will undoubtedly come up, and the more aware the healer is of other jobs and the encounter; the better they get with those judgments.

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If at the beginning of a run anyone cares about the size of the pulls they should speak up; otherwise the tank is going to do what hes comfortable with. If the Healer wants big pulls and the Tank doesn't then you're at an impasse. At that point the group votes on it, either in chat or through vote kick, and majority wins. Very simple. In instances where the healer decides to be disrespectful and obnoxious, however, I don't feel like anyone is honor bound to treat him kindly. I see nothing wrong with simply letting him die and then working it out from there.

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Yeah. There was a time I made the same argument. That was years ago and it's 2020 now. It is actually proper etiquette for the tank to pull big inside dungeons. A big reason for this is because post 50, the group has the resources they need to execute large pulls. The other reason is we are now into the third expansion of FFXIV, and dungeon runs are tedious to the majority of players. They don't want to be in there, but they queue up because they need the tomes and/or exp.

While I don't Rescue tanks into mobs to speed up pulls; it has been done to me when I'm tanking, and I totally understand it. The healer is communicating to me that I can pull more, or it is safer to tank the mobs here.

I am all for tanks learning to crawl before they walk, and learning to walk before they run. I fully expect them to perform with greased training wheels in lower level content for sure. When they are in the higher level stuff though, I fully expect the tank to know how to dungeon. Yes, I just verbalized 'dungeon'.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What you're stating here isn't a rule the game enforces; it's a preference that you have regarding other peoples playstyles. If you don't share your preferences then the tank is going to perform his role in the way he's most comfortable with.

Your opinions and preferences aren't known entities or rules that other people will have committed to memory. These aren't your friends, family or even acquaintances; they're strangers. If you don't communicate with them your preferences won't be regarded. Plenty of healers don't care if the tank pulls slow, and plenty of healers do actually ASK for big pulls; so this little rule of yours isn't even community enforced. This is all your personal social ineptitude.

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So despite explaining twice why it should be (and majorily is) the norm from a more objective standpoint and thus establishing an onus, and not once talking about my preferences, you write it off as me expecting other people to know my preferences. Good to know we're arguing in field of strawmen and you have nothing of value to contribute other than hollow insults lol

Good luck, kid.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What you're stating here isn't a rule the game enforces; it's a preference that you have regarding other peoples playstyles. If you don't share your preferences then the tank is going to perform his role in the way he's most comfortable with.

Your opinions and preferences aren't known entities or rules that other people will have committed to memory. These aren't your friends, family or even acquaintances; they're strangers. If you don't communicate with them your preferences won't be regarded. Plenty of healers don't care if the tank pulls slow, and plenty of healers do actually ASK for big pulls; so this little rule of yours isn't even community enforced. This is all your personal social ineptitude.

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There's also no rule against pulling tanks into mob pulls. It's only according to your arbitrary etiquette that it's considered rude.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Using Rescue on players for reasons other than rescuing them is exploitative. The abilities intent is pretty obvious, and you're misusing it intentionally to disrupt another persons play. I'm guessing I'd have an easier time reporting that then you would have reporting me for failing to save you when you ran off ahead of me and aggro'd a bunch of stuff. Believe whatever you want, though. People like you can Rescue pull and people like me will let you die. The difference is that you're the one that initiated the conflict; I'm simply responding.

If people have a specific playstyle expectation, and won't tolerate anything else, they should always at least ask. Otherwise you get what you get.


Here's how it should go down.

If at the beginning of a run anyone cares about the size of the pulls they should speak up; otherwise the tank is going to do what hes comfortable with. If the Healer wants big pulls and the Tank doesn't then you're at an impasse. At that point the group votes on it, either in chat or through vote kick, and majority wins. Very simple. In instances where the healer decides to be disrespectful and obnoxious, however, I don't feel like anyone is honor bound to treat him kindly. I see nothing wrong with simply letting him die and then working it out from there.

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That is how it should go down, letting the person die and hashing it out afterwards is your prerogative that is true, but why not just tank the group to the best of your ability and after the pull hash it out? Letting the person die seems just as petty if not as petty as someone shirking mobs onto someone or a group forcing a player into a situation they were / are not comfortable with. In the end nothing wrong with any method, it is all personal preference just seems like a waste of time either way around. Though I am a silent kick person, if I see someone doing small pulls I start a vote to remove if it passes yay, if not I just leave or suck it up depends on my mood. Asking takes too much time and creates potential drama.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

There's also no rule against pulling tanks into mob pulls. It's only according to your arbitrary etiquette that it's considered rude.

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Right, and there's also no rule stating that I'm responsible for someone who runs ahead of me, pulls a bunch of stuff and dies. This is all about what is considered rude conduct by the community. If you don't consider attempting to force tanks to pull with Rescue rude then that's your opinion. I personally think Rescue is a terribly designed, easily exploited skill that individuals should be able to opt out of.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

So despite explaining twice why it should be (and majorily is) the norm from a more objective standpoint and thus establishing an onus, and not once talking about my preferences, you write it off as me expecting other people to know my preferences. Good to know we're arguing in field of strawmen and you have nothing of value to contribute other than hollow insults lol

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It's not the norm, though. Like I said, plenty of healers ASK for big pulls (which intuits that it's not the norm), and plenty of Healers also don't care about small pulls. This isn't a community driven, community enforced prerogative; this is you having an expectation and not having the social aptitude to communicate it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Right, and there's also no rule stating that I'm responsible for someone who runs ahead of me, pulls a bunch of stuff and dies. This is all about what is considered rude conduct by the community. If you don't consider attempting to force tanks to pull with Rescue rude then that's your opinion. I personally think Rescue is a terribly designed, easily exploited skill that individuals should be able to opt out of.

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I wouldn't say you're responsible but if you'd let them die on purpose it would mean that you're purposely slowing the party down, while the healer had the right intention of increasing efficiency which is in the whole party's best interest and the point of grouping up in the first place.

Imo people should go in with a more humble mindset and put the party before their own preference. If you can't handle big pulls and healer prepulls, just try, if you fail you can blame it on the healer but at least try and do your best for the sake of the party. Imo healers also shouldn't bother prepulling unless they're sure they can handle it even if chaos ensues, which is easy enough in plenty of dungeons.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I wouldn't say you're responsible but if you'd let them die on purpose it would mean that you're purposely slowing the party down, while the healer had the right intention of increasing efficiency which is in the whole party's best interest and the point of grouping up in the first place.

Imo people should go in with a more humble mindset and put the party before their own preference. If you can't handle big pulls and healer prepulls, just try, if you fail you can blame it on the healer but at least try and do your best for the sake of the party. Imo healers also shouldn't bother prepulling unless they're sure they can handle it even if chaos ensues, which is easy enough in plenty of dungeons.

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I think what's fun for everyone should be just as much of a consideration as what's most efficient. Plenty of tanks don't like being yanked around; plenty of DPS would rather not have the pull abruptly relocated after they've popped their CDs and placed AoEs because they thought the pull was done.

This is all why if you have a preference you ASK, instead of simply forcing it on everyone.

As for my decision to retaliate, I never argued it was the nicest or most productive thing to do. I just feel like it's justified.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

That doesn't mean it's not the norm at all. Out of the hundreds and hundreds (thousands?) of dungeons I've run over the last five years here I don't think I've seen healers have to ask for larger pulls at the start more than 12 times. Because larger pulls are the norm and have been for years.

The only time I see a healer asking for larger pulls mid dungeon isn't because it isn't the norm, but because the tank is performing sub-par and doing small pulls.

I've got to ask man, why do you want to do smaller pulls? They're absolutely mind numbing. It can't be perceived danger, as even if you're at (and often a bit below) the dungeon's general ilevel there's still not much danger in a multi group pull if you're properly playing your class. Hell, you can multi-pull in a trust dungeon and be fine with the brain dead NPCs. So what gives?

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I don't mind doing big pulls. I generally do them by default and if the healer ASKS me to do them I will without any fuss.

It's NOT a rule, though. I've leveled up multiple classes and the ONLY place I see wall to wall pulls really is endgame content. For most of the game tanks aren't doing them and MOST healers aren't trying to force them.

My main problem right now is how hard you're all fighting the basic courtesy of asking. That's partly why I got a bit of a laugh when someone said how great of a community this game has. ;)