LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You realize that defense is totally irrelevant in choosing your accessories since they all give only 1 point, right ?

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Yeah but I think what they are getting at it mitigation is better then having more health. It's harder to heal warriors then paladin. Warriors tank stance is weaker then then other tanks. They have built in mitigation where as wars all they get it more health which they don't really need as well as increased healing which isn't as strong as reducing dmg. The main thing they had was to stance dance and use inner beast to mitigate but now doing that is really hard you would have to have 100 gauge or use infuriate after switching stance.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Yeah but I think what they are getting at it mitigation is better then having more health.

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Pure mitigation vs pure more health, yes. Be we don't have a "main mitigation stat" to chose instead of Vitality.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

It's harder to heal warriors then paladin. Warriors tank stance is weaker then then other tanks.

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The difference is so small it's barely relevant. WARs don't only have more HP, they get healed for more, wich is pretty much the same as receiving less damage. If you take the same base hit against PLD and WAR, they'll end with the same %HP remaining in the end.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Yeah but I think what they are getting at it mitigation is better then having more health.

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Which is insofar true as that healing scales with mitigation.

Healing 500 on a target that has 0 mitigation means that target has 500 effective HP more. Healing 500 on a target that has 50% mitigation means that target has 1000 effective HP more (Which is why Defiance increases healing received - but IIRC, the bonus doesn't apply to abilities. If so, Defiance would indeed be objectively weaker than the other tank stances).

Therein lies a weakness of health - healers are just far, far better at creating effective HP than gear. That's why nominal health and thereby VIT is relegated to a mere buffer for burst.
#GameDesignRamblings

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

No. It. Wont.

DPS and Healers need to manage their own enmity too, and tanks can circle jerk eachother for +56% TOTAL DIRECT enmity every 2 minutes with Shirk. So, no more of this ARR/HW mentality of "Use 1 Rage of Halone in Shjield Oath at the start of the fight then EZ mode tank the rest in Sword Oath, using DPS combos while wearing STR accessories" bullcrap. That's not tanking. That's DPSing with mild tank elements.

Diversion: Reduces enmity generation.
Shirk: Diverts 25% of enmity to target party member.
Tactician: Gradually restores own TPP and the TP of all nearby party members. Reduces enmity generation.
Refresh: Gradually restores own MP and the MP of all nearby party members. Reduces enmity generation.
Shadewalker: Grants target party member the effect of Silhouette, diverting to target 80% of all enmity generated by caster.
Smoke Screen: Creates a wall of smoke, reducing enmity generation of a single party member.
Elusive Jump: Executes a jump to a location 15 yalms behind you, while removing any Heavy or Bind effects.Additional Effect: Reduces enmity by half


LEARN TO USE THEM.

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This will only happen in fixed parties. Any time I ask a random DPS through DF if they even have diversion equipped I get a response along the lines of "LOL why just tank better".

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Originally Posted by Splitinfinity

I get that people are dissatisfied with tanks right now ( I'm especially disappointed with how DRK turned out) but is clamoring for the previous vit damage scaling or implementing a similar mechanic to increase DPS really the best solution to this? As you mentioned right now we need to see what the future holds to know if subpar dps will indeed be an issue. And SE heavily implied that this dps reduction was intentional. So why fervently continue to oppose this? Can we not just ask SE to give us a class redesign to make them more fun without resorting to DPS if they insist on the traditional tank model?
But at the end of the day I guess it is SEs fault for giving tanks a taste of that juicy dps meta. And I guess it is the players choice to adapt or to desire the previous meta. Just sad for me that people would rather have a dps tank than ask SE to redesign tanks to be more fun while being more in line with traditional mmo tanks

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DRK needs changes period, but something must be done about tanks in general, and for me it is accessories getting STR.

This is the only game I became a tank main and it is because unlike the other MMO I spent a lot of time in Tank damage was not utterly miserable in this game. You could make a worthwhile contribution to clears as well as not suffer through solo content taking 2 minutes to kill a lowly creature in a single player instance.

If they want to change the game to another cookie cutter trinity system MMO ripoff where tanks do 20-30% the damage of a DPS, I'm out.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Therein lies a weakness of health - healers are just far, far better at creating effective HP than gear. That's why nominal health and thereby VIT is relegated to a mere buffer for burst.

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That's why I think basic healing spells should be less powerful. Basically, max HP should matter by delaying the need for powerful healing CD as much a possible. If a WHM can fullheal you in 2-3 GCD, Benediction is not that powerful considering its CD.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Pure mitigation vs pure more health, yes. Be we don't have a "main mitigation stat" to chose instead of Vitality.

The difference is so small it's barely relevant. WARs don't only have more HP, they get healed for more, wich is pretty much the same as receiving less damage. If you take the same base hit against PLD and WAR, they'll end with the same %HP remaining in the end.

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You got vit and the i270 str which I used through ex Susano ex lakshmi and delta 1-4.

That would depend on heals vs dmg. If the attack has a higher number then a heal then mitigation is better. I'm not a healer but I asked my friend who is and told me that healing war is different then healing paladins because of how much mitigation they have.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

You got vit and the i270 str which I used through ex Susano ex lakshmi and delta 1-4.

I'm not a healer but I asked my friend who is and told me that healing war is different then healing paladins because of how much mitigation they have.

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I don't know the math behind it, but someone once posted that WAR's are about 4% more difficult to heal to full health than PLD/DRK. This difference is supposed to be made up by the WARS self heals though.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

You got vit and the i270 str which I used through ex Susano ex lakshmi and delta 1-4.

That would depend on heals vs dmg. If the attack has a higher number then a heal then mitigation is better. I'm not a healer but I asked my friend who is and told me that healing war is different then healing paladins because of how much mitigation they have.

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Your friend is wrong. A WAR sitting in Defiance not popping any cooldowns and a PLD sitting in Shield Oath not popping any cooldowns will be nearly identical to heal. There's an extremely small healing received difference because Defiance is only +20% healing instead of +25% and it doesn't affect abilities like Lustrate, but the difference is so small that it should be unnoticeable in any fight. Cooldown usage is identical on both too: a WAR with Defiance+Rampart receives the same damage as a PLD with Shield Oath+Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Your friend is wrong. A WAR sitting in Defiance not popping any cooldowns and a PLD sitting in Shield Oath not popping any cooldowns will be nearly identical to heal. There's an extremely small healing received difference because Defiance is only +20% healing instead of +25% and it doesn't affect abilities like Lustrate, but the difference is so small that it should be unnoticeable in any fight. Cooldown usage is identical on both too: a WAR with Defiance+Rampart receives the same damage as a PLD with Shield Oath+Rampart.

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Really? Because I'm under the impression that that is an attack with 30k hits then a heal at 20k. With 20% mitigation that's 24k dmg with the a heal that would be 4k. With 20% healing the dmg is 30k with a 24k heal which is 6k. So mitigation is better right? Or am I crazy?

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I don't know the math behind it, but someone once posted that WAR's are about 4% more difficult to heal to full health than PLD/DRK. This difference is supposed to be made up by the WARS self heals though.

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Storms path it's 250 potency with a 88.4% healing at lv 70