Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

Changes to your abilities are still unnecessary and arguably game breaking. Again spell speed is laid on thick this patch. Let me put some stuff here:

This is my normal unbuffed spell speed and other stats if you are inclined to care: http://s271.photobucket.com/user/Kur...64ab5.png.html (611)

This is my spell speed after Selene's fey glow buff is applied: http://s271.photobucket.com/user/Kur...00602.png.html (794)

This is my t13 set I swap out other things for lesser accuracy checks, namely the bracelet is swapped out for true ice bracelet for t12 and under. And I'll swap out the dreadwyrm hat for ironworks hood if further accuracy is unnecessary.

Selene's spell speed buff boosts spell speed by 30% this is really big. Especially considering it has no cap that I'm aware of, it’s 30% of w/e number you have with eos for example. So for me it takes 611 and adds 30% on it... so 611 * .3 = 183.3 (the decimal is significant as it still reduces spell speed)

So with selene spell speed scaling to int is .309. Now let’s math a little bit: 183.3 * .309 = 56.6397 raw int gained from selene alone. in other words every 4 or so spell speed points under selene gives 1 int and change. Now that being said (and i've tested and tested and tested this) selene is actually more beneficial to a blm than a bard chain singing foe, as in the bard not singing anything else but foe and cancelling the song during ice phase and resuming on fire 3 end time. (Buff goes up as fire 3 ends and goes down as blizzard starts casting). Scholar op.
Now without selene spell speed scaling isn't so crazy but it’s still up there for blm (.281), this is more due to the sheer quantity of spell speed that is on gear as opposed to the stat itself. Also every awesome parse you've seen from fcob and a blm was involved? ya selene was involved, too bad summoners get no benefit from her.

On the topic of bards, its far more annoying to be a summoner than blm when i comes to bards, why is that? Well from my own experience I can say it really matters, like alot when the bard decides to sing foe as a summoner, it somewhat matters as blm, the reason for that is is that the foe has to be up before the dot application occurs.

To elaborate further:

In 2.0 standard gcd for an end game blm sat at or around 2.31

In 2.2 standard gcd of an end game blm sat at or around 2.33~ (depends on which robe was used)

In 2.4 the standard gcd of the blm is 2.27. This is for one fight only btw, turn 13. Every other fight the gcd will show a noticeable decrease. Hell if I'm in t10 my gcd is actually 1.98 with selene, and around 2.20 without. (sorry if the 2.20 is off I only really though to check it during fey glow x.x)

Summoners simply need armor tailored to them and blms need armor tailored to them as well, because even with all this superior scaling I can’t really keep up on a full ham melee. My best round on t10 is 555, a fight which has an add phase, the best melee parses in that turn beat that by 50 or more, no joke. T11 is no contest melee flat out win. T12 I haven’t seen Lucrazia’s melee parse data on it so I can’t say. Same with 13
To make matters worse casters in the same group actually hurt each other. Ever do t11 with 2 casters? Lol it neuters dps, hard. I’d imagine it’s the same for t12, since most of the aoe damage in t12 is unnecessary, but I wouldn’t say its inflation. And I did an experiment on my last t13 run, I actually single targeted during the storm of myrcedia’s landing. The result? She died faster (this alleviates tank and healer pressure), then the adds died too since my melees ripped them to shreds lol.

As for your comments on aetherial manipulation though, I don’t get it, summoners can practically move and cast to begin with, why does it matter? Even with Aetherial manipulation going large distances I have to wait for it to end before I can cast, it still clips about half a gcd or so.

Sorry for the wall but I’ll close this out with saying it’s not really black mages you summoners want to be balanced to, it’s actually just better secondary stats, a stronger mp pool and to have caster brought more in line with overbearingly strong melee classes atm, they do better utility and damage than casters atm. To make matters worse both casters depend on other jobs to make the most of their damage, and those jobs have to be willing to cooperate with the caster. (nope sorry, we're using Eos instead, or just the sheer need to sing paeon overuling foe for example, it can get worse, sometimes the bard just doesn't sing at all, but this shouldnt be happening in end game situations.)
Also I’ve said this before but w.e IF summoner receives a buff and blm doesn’t get something also, it’s effectively nerfing blm.

There is your in depth explanation.

I agree with you in the sense that caster DPS is dependend on other jobs most of the time in order to do very well. However, the raw damage on a BLM (which was tested by Judge Zero) is 10% higher! It was even more than that. In end gaming this translates in BLM having 50DPS more. Tailoring gear isn't going to close that gap, especially not since BLM has better utility. Everything a Summoner has, is something not worth using by the class unless is very exeptional cases.
I would just delete the raise and let Summoner do more damage than a Black mage (at least in ST). You have not refuted the fact that Black mage has:

Better AoE
Better Single target
Better utility
Better burst
Better scaling of gear.

The only thing you have adressed is the gear issue. It is a legitimate concern, but it will in no way or shape revive Summoner. At best, if you tailor gear to Summoner, BLM will still have:

Better AoE
Arguably better ST
Better utility
Better burst

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xisin

because even with all this superior scaling I can’t really keep up on a full ham melee. My best round on t10 is 555, a fight which has an add phase, the best melee parses in that turn beat that by 50 or more, no joke. T11 is no contest melee flat out win. T12 I haven’t seen Lucrazia’s melee parse data on it so I can’t say. Same with 13

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This discussion has been going on since the release of 2.0. The day that melee dps gets outdps'ed by range who runs zero risks, is the day melee becomes useless. There are 3 melees in the game now with possibly more coming in the future. SE has chosen that there is a role for melees in this game. So just deal with it.

In final coil there is literally nothing a melee has to dodge more than a caster. Nothing. Yet, it still bosses everything. Shocker

Deal with it. People are getting real tired explaining the same thing to you over and over again. There is no big mmo out there that has a caster/ range outdamage melee dps anymore. So if you dont like being outdps'ed, then change your class to a melee.

The days where Samurais, Dark knights, Warriors, Dragoons, Monks and Thieves sat at the sidelines while SMNs and BLMs nuke everything from Kirin to Absolute Virtue...those days are long gone.

And that of course makes it fair. I don't see why a class that has to deal with every mechanics in the same way gets to have less DPS. I'm afraid that 'just deal with it' is not really a good argument to be making.
If they had a drastically more difficult job, then yes, I would agree that melee should outshine ranged. But this simply isn't the case. But alright, no need to go offtopic, it's about Summoner issues. They clearly have them and it's only not a gear thing. I really don't understand how this has not been established yet. BLM is superior in every aspect. It's true that Summoner was better than BLM in the past, but that was also not a good thing. There is no good balance and I know it's hard to do. But even back in the day BLM had better AoE which was at least something. Now BLM is simply better in anything.

Telling you to deal with it is a proper response because SE has made it known that this (ff14) is not a caster dominated game. You are clearly not liking this choice. So you have 2 options: 1) deal with it. 2) play something else. But it wont be any different in other MMO's either because the cat is out the bag.

It is real simple.

As far as difficulty-of-the-job is concerned, that is subjective. But if you ask a room of 100 players whether they think range dps (you) job is more difficult to play with then melee, Im pretty sure the majority would disagree.

Can you please quote where it says that SE has made that statement. Take like a screenshot or something. It seems a weird thing for SE to publish. And regardless of that, it still does not make it fair. How is that so hard to understand? I don't mind casters doing less DPS, I'm just asking if it's valid or not. To me it does not seem valid at all. By the way, I play every class and it's not even a joke. Yes, I main caster, no I don't only play caster. I also play White Mage and MNK. MNK being by far the easiest of all melee classes. Although DRG might have taken that spot now.
When it comes to difficulty, it is indeed subjective. Although I must say, from my subjective experience people who were shit at being casters were quite good melee and not the other way around. But again, that is a personal observation on my server. But alright, I'm going to leave it at this so that this thread does not deviate from its initial purpose.

Melee may be more "difficult to play", but I suspect it's easier to do decent numbers with than caster.

The BLM rotation may be easy enough, but to push numbers anywhere near a half-decent melee, on any movement heavy fight, it takes a fair bit of skill and practice.

Vivi What I pretty much stated in that mile long post is that blm has a +- 50 int advantage over summoner due to selene, which near every end game static uses at this point , and some even used selene during progression. the 10% dps difference is seemingly accounting for selene already being there. I've already stated though that I'm fine with smn being slightly under blm anyway, that stance hasn't changed. Please, look at the spell speed stat before selene, its 600+, AND that's my best scaling stat, by a large margin. See what I mean? (edited in: just for the numbers sake lets say you have 350 det (you don't) does it stand up to my 611 spell speed at .281 scaling? nope.

But onto the melee vs caster thing, the logic of meles being riskier just doesnt apply to this game, a recent example of melee being riskier than mage actually applies to dragon age inquisiton (which does have multiplayer.) Assassins in that game deal a ton of single target compared to mage, but then again when you can

1. catch an arrow from an archer in your face that was intended for a back line dps, thus half shotting you or even one shotting you depeneding on the ability attached to said arrow
2. literally everything cleaves, meaning if you are slightly out of position you lose 50%-100% of your health
3. being cc means you die
4. At any moment the tank can be knocked back, knocked down, see a bird in the distance and run away thus potentially turning it around, remember the attack doesn't have to target you to hit you, even plain old autos.
5. where flanking outright gives a multiplier on everything meaning it takes some strategy to play when attached to the 4 above concerns

in ffxi melees did more damage, it was just way unsafe. the reasons people used casters in that game was due to tp generation and it effect on the frequency that HNMs (raid mobs) used their big moves, its why casters were totally excluded from merit parties and had to solo their exp. The constant babying that square does for melees in this game simply means melees just don't have signifigant risks tied to them, they tried that in 2.0/2.1 people complained, (remember garuda ex, oh lawd.) Now with risks removed, you want to have your cake and eat it too (as the saying goes.)

IF you have to deal with those examples, then yes you deserve more damage, as I'm not nearly as stressed during play as you are. Even more concerning than this, why do melees also deserve more utility? Are casters merely there to deal with afterthought-for-casters mechanics now? Remember all that dragon kick really is is a 10% (edit: quite honestly I duno what a 10% int reduction would amount to, its noticeable and really significant though.) party apoc with 100% uptime. (as opposed to apoc being 20% with a 3 min cd.)