Reasonable buff to war

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I disagree. I believe rdps is the better metric for both. aDPS includes all sorts of buffs which skew numbers. rDPS as a tank would be the raw metric of your damage contribution without those buffs.

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Whether your job can better take advantage of certain buffs (i.e. Trick Attack) has zero impact on the job's own rDPS, even though it does affect the party. Tank rDPS being equal, a party that has a tank that can better exploit others' damage utility will have higher dps than a party with a tank that does a poorer job of that exploitation. That is a measurable contribution, and yet it's not measured in the tank's rDPS. However, it does at least appear in aDPS, although it's only worth precise comparison in the fantastic scenario that one uses the same composition performing the same fight via the same strategy and with the same performance between all the otherwise same members.

Neither measure is perfect. But, if rDPS is generally equal, yet the others' aDPS is higher across a broad spread of parses (and thereby probably compositions), the higher aDPS tank is contributing more (just, via the DRG/NIN/AST/SCH/MNK/RDM's rDPS parses, rather than its own).

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I disagree. I believe rdps is the better metric for both. aDPS includes all sorts of buffs which skew numbers. rDPS as a tank would be the raw metric of your damage contribution without those buffs.

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The problem is that rDPS ignores the practical reality that raid buffs affect each tank differently.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

The problem is that rDPS ignores the practical reality that raid buffs affect each tank differently.

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You seem so set on the idea that the differences matter, so let's just cut to the chase: is a ~5% discrepancy between WAR and GNB aDPS really that hard for you to live with?

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Originally Posted by Hierro

You seem so set on the idea that the differences matter, so let's just cut to the chase: is a ~5% discrepancy between WAR and GNB aDPS really that hard for you to live with?

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Calling some measure of error a trifle does not make it any less an error.

The discrepancy between WAR and GNB aDPS being small has nothing to do with whether rDPS is by no means a perfect measurement for tank balance, given that added party dps as a result of your ability to use your composition's utility is not shown in your own metric. It is nearly sufficient. But it is not.

As no tank provides any personal rDPS beyond their aDPS, but their discrepency in aDPS does provide additional rDPS to other members, he's right that aDPS should also be considered.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

You seem so set on the idea that the differences matter, so let's just cut to the chase: is a ~5% discrepancy between WAR and GNB aDPS really that hard for you to live with?

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You have a tank that is behind GNB wihout buffs even aplied by a bit, then you add in party buffs. Then you have the same tank benefit the least from some party buffs while the GNB has no such degregation from any party buffs and the gap just widens further now.

I just want the meat gauge crit bonus back because that was more fun and interesting. Optimizing our meat gauge was a cool way for warriors to squeeze out just a little more by trying to have as much of it as we can without going overcap and ending the encounter on 0.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

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DPS isn't everything when it comes to balance. Until you make every single skill the exact same, these tanks will not be balanced.

warrior is at a disadvantage due to having to apply eye as well as IR being a complete burden. this ability is so skill speed and ping dependant and you pray that your cd animations or the Inner Release animation itself doesn't screw you over. the three tanks are consistent dps, while warrior's burst is too high. this means that the better rDPS is, the worst their personal dps is. gun can use all party buffs, pld doesnt care, war can only use rdm/mnk/nin and those three are mostly dead and drk needs a nin. imbalanced.

Paladin's clemency and Equilibrium are the same potency. However, equilibrium is 60s and clemency you can not only spam it 5 times, but it gets buffed by 50% at 68. Clemency is level 58. Warrior's equilibrium is 58, but it cannot be buffed by ToB until level 78, which is only 10s and can the heal can only be used ONCE. Flash is not available until level 78, and its conditionally tied to another player as well as being dependent on damage (which makes it poor with it being only 6s)

warrior has no "self-healing" at 50. it's self-healing is abysmal at 70. warrior is a SLOWBOYE, and making something so tight a window as 6s or 10s (NF/IR) is inconsiderate.

raw intuition is at all times inferior. its legit just a cd for a "oh snap, i messed up i dont have a cd" moment. camo is too good.

the tanks were more balanced in stormblood. the problem was that dark knight was absolutely inferior to the other two and bringing one was a guaranteed rDPS loss no matter what.

it didn't get anything in Shadowbringers. It lost a significant amount in 4.2 Stormblood and they got nothing in return. Flash is the ONLY thing warrior got, but this isnt new either as its just a trash tier bloodbath to give back what SC and IB had prior. Paladin got *everything*: a gapcloser, an aoe magic attack, a combo finisher, more dps, Req. buff. all unique animations. Gunbreaker is a whole new tank, so it got all those resources that warrior (and dark knight) should've got, but didnt. Warrior was completely ignored.

Dark Knight doesn't even have its own pure unique burst as it just burrowed warrior's "inner release", which NO ONE WANTED. and it has fray. ok. cool. Dark doesnt even get its second hit in its aoe combo until like 74. sad.

I mean Storm's eye works the same as it has since SB as does IR after people cried about old IR being too difficult. It's on you to press IR at the correct time, not ping, it's like hitting fof too early, I miss Goring Blade under the buff, that's player error. You only need to hit a certain amount of SkS, and beside since WAR's the odd tank out, instead of melding DH you can meld SkS to reach the correct tier. Also worth noting, with the increase in time between GCD for combos to sat alive, you have time to weave IR window and refresh eye, giving more freedom than before tbh.
So Clemency at 58 you can get 2 off, then at 68 5 off, and 78 buffed and insta-cast, buuuuuuut it cost both mp and it is at the cost of damage, WAR's equilibrium cost nothing, it's free, it uses no resource, unless you count time, but PLD needs time to build it's mana back up too.

As for PLD getting new stuff, a gap closer is one of the most sought after abilities requested by paladins, all tanks now have access to Arm's Length. PLD's AoE was spin to win, and flash once in a blue moon, now they brought all AoEs in line via combos, but also added an AoE variation to reflect PLDs single target rotation. As for req buff, the major buff is the insta cast, as you couldn't block while casting, and made movements a pain in the ass during req in certain fights, so basically QoL, and then the buff of 50% increase in magic damage potency and healing potency from 20%. Although, only really noticed HS doing more damage than SB variation at about i450-ish, with the tank damage formula change, granted HS did lose 20 potency moving into ShB.

WAR got new interactions with infuriate, a short defensve CD in RI, Nascent Flash as an answer to PLD having a monopoly on OT skills, and an AoE combo finisher, you did get some new stuff for WAR, saying it was ignored is just hyperbole at best.

I disagree with your sentiment of GNB " so it got all those resources that warrior (and dark knight) should've got, but didnt." that's very much a childish view, as WAR had a more naturally evolution of it's pre-existing skills, which GNB couldn't really hinder in it's creation.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I mean Storm's eye works the same as it has since SB as does IR after people cried about old IR being too difficult. It's on you to press IR at the correct time, not ping, it's like hitting fof too early, I miss Goring Blade under the buff, that's player error. You only need to hit a certain amount of SkS, and beside since WAR's the odd tank out, instead of melding DH you can meld SkS to reach the correct tier. Also worth noting, with the increase in time between GCD for combos to sat alive, you have time to weave IR window and refresh eye, giving more freedom than before tbh.

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These are not comparable. Losing a Crit/Dh Fell Cleave is a significantly larger damage loss than missing Goring Blade under Fight or Flight. And while it typically is a timing issue on the player, no other tank is punished quite as severely because all of Warrior's damage is baked into a single button. Furthermore, Warrior is the only tank that outright must allow its buff to fall off in the opener otherwise it's actually a damage loss. This repeats in any instance where you'll gain a Fell Cleave in a pot/burst window. As for melding Skill Speed, this impacts the other tanks unless you only play Warrior—leaving you with two options: obtaining a separate set just for Warrior or rolling an inferior build.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

WAR got new interactions with infuriate, a short defensve CD in RI, Nascent Flash as an answer to PLD having a monopoly on OT skills, and an AoE combo finisher, you did get some new stuff for WAR, saying it was ignored is just hyperbole at best.

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That interaction with Infuriate is really clunky; forcing you to throw Inner Chaos out at specific points since you need to deplete charges otherwise you risk overcapping. This is only due to the fact IC replaces Fell Cleave, thus you can't simply hold an IC until after you finish your IR window. Dark Knight now has literally the same ability yet lacks this problem. Inner Chaos should be a separate button, especially seeing Warrior's hotbars are downright barren now. Nascent Flash doesn't come close to Paladin's OT utility, and lags significantly beside Intervention, TBN and Heart of Stone. Who cares about an AoE combo finisher when literally every tank got that?

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Originally Posted by millktea

a bunch of objectively wrong or hyperbolic stuff

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There is so much wrong with this post. IR is very ping friendly and does not jeed hardly any skill speed to pull off. This is literally the 1st pist i have seen complaining about IR and ping in the same sentence. You are obviously having some trouble with this skill, and 9x out of 10 this happens because people dont know you should wait to hit the button until the latter part of your gcd CD. Thats on you. The only time i miss a FC in IR is because i screw up. You can do it with darn near zero skill speed if you do it properly.

Plds 50% stronger spammable heal comes by spamming heals instead of 50% boosted spell windows. The only time this is practical is while soloing which this game is not designed for. Sacrificing MASSIVE amounts of damage to heal does not put war behind. It puts pld behind because that is a terrible choice and only viable as a last ditch effort to an already boned run. Wars heal in the other hand costs zero dps, is ogcd, and can be buffed without hurting dps even further. I use equil in every fight all the time. Plds use ckemency at best during down time or in a pinch to proc their aoe party shield and still loose dps to do even that. And no self healing? I heal for roughly 50k per use of nascent and 25k to my target in raids. In dungeons i full heal and then some with it.

Raw int is 'inferior'? Its identical to plds 20% but costs no resource. Guns is 15% and has a itty bitty shield. Drks is better, but has some risk. The only reason raw isnt used as much is not because its inferior, its because nascent is so much more powerful in most situations.

The tanks were more balanced in stormblood? What in the...holy crap. When dek had zero aoe mit. When running without a pld was a stupid idea because of the immense support it had. When drk was inferior to both pld and war. In support, damage, and personal mitigation until the very end through many, many rounds of buffs while pld got many rounds of nerfs? When they did an entire war rework because it wasnt working quite right and let drk simmer for years? Tanks are chrrently more balanced in dps than ever before and thats with an additional tank to balance. They are are MUCH closer in the support side than ever before as all have aoe mit and single target support skills. They are all closer in mitigation as they have been homogenized heavily in personal mit skills. They are objectively more balanced now than in any point in history. Practically everything in your post is objectively wrong or hyperbole.