Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Those numbers were taken from the same fight, (Susanoo Ex) and were the very top dps from their respective job class. They were all doing the same fight with the same mechanics and represent the highest numbers that class can do in that situation.

Smn being 4k dps in the best scenario opposed to most classes being around 4200-4500 with Samurai at 5000 dps.

The only class worse then Summoner was Machinist at 3600 dps. Paladins and warriors can reach around 3200 dps.

Bad rep? Hardly. Using hard concrete facts like dps numbers to prove that summoner was nerfed too hard too much for you?

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Bad rep is pulling out numbers without explaining what created them. For all I had known you had pulled out those numbers from all fight sources, like some random trash pack for BRD. Knowing it's just a single target fight is better.
There is still no answer about balance padding or comp for buffs/debuffs though. For all we know the SAM had 100% Balance uptime and full physical dps synergy and the SMN had nothing.

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Originally Posted by Jeykama

Bad rep is pulling out numbers without explaining what created them. For all I had known you had pulled out those numbers from all fight sources, like some random trash pack for BRD. Knowing it's just a single target fight is better.
There is still no answer about balance padding or comp for buffs/debuffs though. For all we know the SAM had 100% Balance uptime and full physical dps synergy and the SMN had nothing.

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And I explained where I first posted the numbers that these were the highest dps numbers of each respective class. Both fights with the Samurai and the summoner had balance uptime of around 53-56% (Act is great for looking at things and comparing! I can click at both fights and get the very exact details of each class!)

And if the top summoner, which is currently at 4k dps, is compared to the other classes, it's clearly lacking. You can say oh well Summoner has better Aoe, except that deathflare was nerfed, and bane was nerfed heavily. Bane went from 110 potency per tick to 80 potency per tick with increased fall off damage per add. Oh and Summoner's strongest spammable Aoe (Meaning not requiring a minute, two minute or three minute* cooldown) is 30 potency.

The Machinist being so low concerns me as well. Is that a result of raid utility focus, another case of over nerfing, or a player having a bad time? If raid utility is the focus, that could explain SAMs sky high DPS as they have no raid utility at all.

On that note,

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

The Machinist being so low concerns me as well. Is that a result of raid utility focus, another case of over nerfing, or a player having a bad time? If raid utility is the focus, that could explain SAMs sky high DPS as they have no raid utility at all.

On that note,

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Samurai's dps is their utility at this point.

Summoner's are meanwhile out damaged and don't have arguably as much utility as say red mage. Using dual cast, Red mage can almost instantly rez/heal anyone. Red mage just hard casts Vercure the insta-casts raise on whoever.

If Summoner was meant to buff everyone's damage, they really should have made radiant shield ( 2% damage increase for maximum 24 seconds) or contagion (10% magic debuff for 15 seconds... one second too short for dreadwyrm...) more significant. Ninja get's trick attack which is 10% damage of all damage for 10 seconds every 60 seconds with same cooldown as radiant shield and contagion.

Ahh I hit the wrong button on mobile,

BUT on that note, since SMN's new format is all about the long build-up that can very easily be wrecked by a death or badly sync'd phase change resetting timers, I'm curious if that may be a contributing factor to parsers giving such low numbers. Are we accounting for Egi damage, as well?

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Samurai's dps is their utility at this point.

Summoner's are meanwhile out damaged and don't have arguably as much utility as say red mage. Using dual cast, Red mage can almost instantly rez/heal anyone. Red mage just hard casts Vercure the insta-casts raise on whoever.

If Summoner was meant to buff everyone's damage, they really should have made radiant shield ( 2% damage increase for maximum 24 seconds) or contagion (10% magic debuff for 15 seconds... one second too short for dreadwyrm...) more significant. Ninja get's trick attack which is 10% damage of all damage for 10 seconds every 60 seconds with same cooldown as radiant shield and contagion.

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Thank you for the detailed answer!

I'm a bit surprised SMN lacks a similar skill to SCH's Chain Strategem (target has 15% higher chance taking critical hits for 15 seconds), or that the skill was the one used to replace the sorely missed Sustain.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

And I explained where I first posted the numbers that these were the highest dps numbers of each respective class. Both fights with the Samurai and the summoner had balance uptime of around 53-56% (Act is great for looking at things and comparing! I can click at both fights and get the very exact details of each class!)

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When you posted those numbers you said nothing of the sort about that context, all I see still are numbers and jobs in that post. The burden of proof is on you if you're going to pull numbers out and try to prove a point, all I'm saying. It's like saying this game is dying by cherry-picking pop numbers taken at daytime pop 3.0 (sam with 100% enhanced balance) vs. night-time pop 3.5 (SMN with no cards). If the SMN and SAM both had enhanced balance with 50% uptime cool, your numbers actually mean something.

On the other hand Susano is an extremely melee high-uptime fight if you don't have to do mechanics and aoe are baited well, and high-uptime have always been SMN's weakness because of the nature of dots.
I think SAM being so high is more worrisome than SMN being so "low".

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Ahh I hit the wrong button on mobile,

BUT on that note, since SMN's new format is all about the long build-up that can very easily be wrecked by a death or badly sync'd phase change resetting timers, I'm curious if that may be a contributing factor to parsers giving such low numbers. Are we accounting for Egi damage, as well?

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Egi damage has always been included in parses. So the summoner that did 4k dps, his egi (garuda) was around 15% of his dps doing 300k damage with wind blade.

Summoner is also the most punishing class at the moment. Not only do you get weakness if you die, but you lose your pet with all your aetherflow and dreadwyrm stacks gone. Summoner is now extremely high risk, low reward. Anything that happens to you in a fight now completely ruins (ha... get it?) your dps. Summoner used to be much more mild. Having Mild risk and high reward if you managed to get two festers in dreadwyrm trance and getting your death flare and ruin 3s off.

You have to hold fester (depending on your connection) so you don't miss fester on the add you just dotted so you don't lose aetherflow stack and toss Dreadwyrm trance away and bahamut for a minute. Bane is risky if a tank pulls the add out of range, and the damage just isn't worth it.

I want Physick removed entirely from SMN and sustain returned, that is all.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

FFX' characters may have charactaristics of jobs (lulu may be somewhat of black mage, though waka was a "blitzballer" which is no classic FF job at all well..) .. and in FFVII- FFIX there was nothing like job classes, everyone could cast "BLM" spells and had the abillity to summon... but there is no FF job system behind that. Same for FFIX, FFVII, FFIX, FFXIII, FFXV etc.

The FF job system lies in the classic FF and tactics titles

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Wakka is indeed a blitzball player but he was a ranged-dps type that could easily hit flying type without missing AND Also able to hit a enemy far away out of reach.. If u ever used Tidus and tried to attack a flying type then lmfao its either "miss" or "out of reach". FF dont need a classic job name either because there will always be a magician, ranged or melee as dps trinity. Or healer, supporter and tank.

The point is: never compare older ff games to the new ones;p its still final fantasy with different appearence on each series.

Arcanist has healing skill for a reason but they should scale it to INT so it would be fair to support ur pet for a bit. Also smn are able to use res too. Its fun that smn are able to support party members with raise. So why not physick