Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

Yes, lets continue our whinings and crying and how entitled we are to devs response asap before we quit.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

How about we get back on topic instead of talking about random garbage.

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(I use the word hard not to describe challenging but also time consuming/repetitive)

Getting Iffy drops was hard, then it became easier with totems.
Getting Moogle drops was hard, then it became easier with charms.
Garuda drops is easy, with guaranteed drop rate.

Hamlet Defense works on a multiplier: Level 1 through 5 will give you 1x to 5x bonus.
Getting 60k gold chest now is hard, but.... it will become easier.

There is a trend here:
Stuff starts off as 'hard' to get, then overtime becomes 'easier'. Therefore the 'full-time dedicated' adventurer can start right away and get an advantage over the casual player who does not progress as much. But after a while, the casual player can get a better chance of progression.

Therefore, the only *REAL* arguments I would defend here are:
-- Hamlet Defense Seal - It is challenging to get the 60k chest, but after level 3 or 4 it should be really easy and seals should be more common. And as everyone in the party only needs *THREE* per hamlet, then it should be even easier for one to get it. (Since this will happen, no real argument here)

-- CC/AV Chest Drops - The drop rate is rather poor. Hopefully in time (months?) from now the system will be updated to increase the drop rate (perhaps buy a key item that increases the rate, or find the chest in other dungeons, or becomes a drop item from one of the critters). There is nothing holding them back from adding this, and perhaps they will. This is a supported argument and suggestion.

-- Double Meld Rates - I can not in good faith support a system where attaching a second materia to an item is based on pure luck. This is illogical, not at all fun, and does not add any gameplay value. If they wish to keep luck involved, I may support a system where the materia being attached is lost, but not an 'all or nothing' system. Therefore this is a valid game mechanic to argue for reform upon.

Hopefully, instead of just wild-eyed ranting, if we focus our concerns on specific points we may be able to yield better results.


Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Yes, lets continue our whinings and crying and how entitled we are to devs response asap before we quit.

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True that doesn't really solve anything but to be fair I known a lot of my LS members and friends who quit "until 2.0" because of this. They don't check these forums though...or complain much. ; ;

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Originally Posted by fusional

really wanted gae bolg, but... savage might IV up to ~1m each? lol nooooope. i'm out.

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Fun stuff right <,<;; I'm already 0/5 on the Gae Bolg double meld... gonna have to farm mats/hq stuff to sell after I meld on to recoup the losses... shoulda just went with Spharai but DRG so much fun to play D:

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Therefore, the only *REAL* arguments I would defend here are:
-- Hamlet Defense Seal - It is challenging to get the 60k chest, but after level 3 or 4 it should be really easy and seals should be more common. And as everyone in the party only needs *THREE* per hamlet, then it should be even easier for one to get it. (Since this will happen, no real argument here)
I think you misunderstand whats going to happen when they raise the level. Take how it is now between level 1 and 2 for example, there is a major difficulty boost. Now take that up to rank 3, the mobs will be 1 level higher again, which will boost how hard they hit and lower the damage they take. Granted with a triple multiplier youll only need 20k x3 instead of 30k x2, but itl be more difficult to win as a whole because of it. The advantage I do see with higher ranks is that you wont need to kite the boss and do whats basicaly the same strat with 3-4 different variations(all basicaly doing same thing though) that we have to do now so other clases can be involved

-- CC/AV Chest Drops - The drop rate is rather poor. Hopefully in time (months?) from now the system will be updated to increase the drop rate (perhaps buy a key item that increases the rate, or find the chest in other dungeons, or becomes a drop item from one of the critters). There is nothing holding them back from adding this, and perhaps they will. This is a supported argument and suggestion.
If the drop rate is that bad this is one thing i can see being changed, we will see i guess

-- Double Meld Rates - I can not in good faith support a system where attaching a second materia to an item is based on pure luck. This is illogical, not at all fun, and does not add any gameplay value. If they wish to keep luck involved, I may support a system where the materia being attached is lost, but not an 'all or nothing' system. Therefore this is a valid game mechanic to argue for reform upon.
people will have to live with this, not gonna change

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Bolded responses

They aren't going to raise the Hamlet level anytime soon. That would up the mobs to the lvl60+ range.

Everything else is not that difficult, the AV/CC shit just kills any and all motivation.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

They aren't going to raise the Hamlet level anytime soon. That would up the mobs to the lvl60+ range.

Everything else is not that difficult, the AV/CC shit just kills any and all motivation.

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level 1-2 was a 1 level difference, they only have to add 1 more level to the mobs to do it, and perhaps alter a few other details

itl probly happen at 1.23 if not 1.22c

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

level 1-2 was a 1 level difference, they only have to add 1 more level to the mobs to do it, and perhaps alter a few other details

itl probly happen at 1.23 if not 1.22c

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It would be interesting if they allowed level 5 and the mobs therein were so difficult no one could possibly win the battle.

That being said, yes, level 3 battle may be harder to level 2, however my original emphasis was that there would be greater latitutde in the stragey used. This makes it 'easier'. I would not be surprised if a level is reached where you could easily go in with just DoW and DoM and blow everything up, get only 15k but still score a gold chest due to multipliers.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

It would be interesting if they allowed level 5 and the mobs therein were so difficult no one could possibly win the battle.

That being said, yes, level 3 battle may be harder to level 2, however my original emphasis was that there would be greater latitutde in the stragey used. This makes it 'easier'. I would not be surprised if a level is reached where you could easily go in with just DoW and DoM and blow everything up, get only 15k but still score a gold chest due to multipliers.

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you can do that at level 1, but you cant get 60k lol
and if you try at rank 2, you lose pretty bad usualy, so im guessing higher ranked all dow/dom will suck bad too

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

you can do that at level 1, but you cant get 60k lol
and if you try at rank 2, you lose pretty bad usualy, so im guessing higher ranked all dow/dom will suck bad too

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Just throw enough BLMs at the enemy and they will all die. Your score will be low, but you will win the fight. And with a multiplier, you may do well enough for gold ^.^;

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Just throw enough BLMs at the enemy and they will all die. Your score will be low, but you will win the fight. And with a multiplier, you may do well enough for gold ^.^;

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tried it, wont work lol, trust me, it wont work

I see lots of DoW/DoM groups exiting dead all the time; I imagine it must be more difficult than just the DoL/DoH method. So it might be easier to just do the same thing as always even against higher level mobs.

Problem I have with hamlets for this is that its boring; dreadfully so. Can't push yourself to do more DPS or beat LS members in a MM fight etc. Its turn in red, turn in red, turn in red... kite boss, kite boss, kite boss... for 20-25m straight.

Rewards are sorta lame besides for pants which have a 1% drop rate it seems, just like DL body. We'll do them but I just wanna pound my head on a wall.

At least even if MM item is uber low drop rate at least its more entertaining than hamlets D:

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

I see lots of DoW/DoM groups exiting dead all the time; I imagine it must be more difficult than just the DoL/DoH method. So it might be easier to just do the same thing as always even against higher level mobs.

Problem I have with hamlets for this is that its boring; dreadfully so. Can't push yourself to do more DPS or beat LS members in a MM fight etc. Its turn in red, turn in red, turn in red... kite boss, kite boss, kite boss... for 20-25m straight.

Rewards are sorta lame besides for pants which have a 1% drop rate it seems, just like DL body. We'll do them but I just wanna pound my head on a wall.

At least even if MM item is uber low drop rate at least its more entertaining than hamlets D:

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itl get mixed up a bit more when you get higher

youll still want a crafter doing the attack buff
gatherer on debuff

but you wont have to kite....you can already get 40k without kiting, so it stands to reason with a higher multiplier that 40k becomes 60k, so you wont need a 20-25 minute fight, you can do it in 12-13 instead. and perhaps even add more dds to the mix in general

itl be a wait and see thing on how it all works out, we actualy need the higher rank in first, but ive been thinking alot about what can differ when it happens to still pull off the score

I'm pretty surprised about melding materia though ,
I don't know if it's just my feeling or is it really is but
I've came across many people that double meld for DRG , BLM , MNK weapon
and success in the first try
so I kinda feel like it's easier to meld in these weapons than in other stuff ,
even though my bow is on the third try
and my friend's axe in the second try

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If talk about how much does it cost me it's only about 1M though
( harden sap , coke , Spruce lumber+1 )

Darksteel ore+1 is kinda easy to dig up (easier than gold ore+1 for me),
so it's not gonna cost much and make you suffer
if you can find the materials and materias yourself

Melding and crafting parts is not really the problem in this quest
I'm not finish with the seals from hamlet yet but I've progress everyday
Even that seals not drop on me but I can count for the day I'll get it all done
(if 60k hamlet point confirm for every run)
but yes if you have a static group for hamlet and set rules for seals drop
then it's not gonna take so long ( Lucky enough 2 weeks , bad luck 1 month)
IMO the real deal is finding that mythril or whatever piece in AV/CC
since their is not much info on it yet

Cheer up guys it's not that hard

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Yes, lets continue our whinings and crying and how entitled we are to devs response asap before we quit.

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I would say after 778 responses and 1000's of hits, they won't be responding :p

farm savage might, you say

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I would say after 778 responses and 1000's of hits, they won't be responding :p

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It usually feels like when we complain, and we are right about something, either they don't respond, or they "Understand how we feel.".

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Originally Posted by fusional

farm savage might, you say

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That is in fact a cool thing i'm going to save.
That said: Would it be possible that Savage Might is easier to obtain from the polearm? It's not like for spiribond parties a L49 Hart Guisarme instead of a, say, Malignant Mogfork is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

They aren't going to raise the Hamlet level anytime soon. That would up the mobs to the lvl60+ range.

Everything else is not that difficult, the AV/CC shit just kills any and all motivation.

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What is you LS's current count on your AV runs with the ore chest? Has anyone gotten 3 ore's yet?

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Did you not even read the OP? Cause, I'm pretty sure she gave a basic description of a better way to handle it...as have several others.

I'm on team 'Epic Quest-line for an Epic Weapon' I believe the relic quest should be a Solo questline that is VERY Difficult and requires you to showcase your individual skills on the job you are attempting to earn the weapon for. I wouldn't mind having to gather items from hamlets/crafting your weapon etc. as much *if* demonstrating your actual skill on the desired job was important too. Right now, I'm spending more time on Botanist while trying to earn a relic than on the job I hope to use the relic on...that is just wrong.

However, in order for SE to have done the 'Epic Quest' line for the relics, they would have had to spend more time and energy on the current game than they wish to do. So we ended up with this RNG crap...and it is crap. I would have preferred they waited longer before introducing them, mostly so they could have done it correctly.

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The arguement that SE is using a RNG system with ultra-low drop rates to keep us playing until 2.0 is absurd btw. Most people look at this and just give up. As a matter of fact, I know of MORE people who have left to go play other games due to this whole Relic RNG thing than anything else. These same people would have embraced an 'Epic Battle' questline even if they were 2 weeks in and they couldn't even get by the first battle. RNG is only a challenge of willpower...not of skill, or brains. All having a relic weapon will say of us currently is that we are 'lucky' or 'have no life'. You can still be a crappy player.

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Well stated.

Ideally, Square would've designed out a well-written Relic Weapon Quest / Story, with beautiful Cinematics, memorable Villains / Enemies, and provided interesting Boss / NM Battles that challenged each Job / Player along the way. Something with the excellent Cinematography of Chains of Promathea (and even some of the newest XIV Cinematics in the new main quests being added with Cid & the Garlean Empire, etc.), while also giving us new, interesting Boss Fights.

IMHO, the actual design ideas and fights for Original Batraal (before nerf), Ifrit, Good King Moggle Mog, Garlean Empire Transmitter, Garuda all show promise and some interesting Boss Fight mechanics. We just needed more of these incorporated into the Relic Quest instead of what we actually have:

Spamming Random Number Generator content that is more about rolling the dice than anything else. :(

I still think the drop rate for Hamlet Defense is crappy and would rather have a system of Measurable Progress with each Victory, though.

I hope we see some changes before 2.0 hits.

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

@fusional

don't do av for now, make sure your main members in ls get 9seals and doublemelds weapon first.
later, you will be doing av forever with abysmal drop rate like us.
almost 100 runs, 800individual chests combined. and yes, 1 miser's mythril.

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Hi Luxanna,

Ouch! :( Thanks for the update.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

-snip-

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inb4 finishing Gae Bolg requiring you to bathe it in Nidhogg's blood >_>

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Originally Posted by Skies

inb4 finishing Gae Bolg requiring you to bathe it in Nidhogg's blood >_>

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This would be a bad thing? Wyrm blood is good for your pores and lady regions.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

What is you LS's current count on your AV runs with the ore chest? Has anyone gotten 3 ore's yet?

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We're around 100 runs finished now with 800 combined individual chests and I was the only person to get a Mythril. Everyone else has played 6 days for many hours each day and received nothing. We've tried doing things to improve drop rate but nothing seems to work.

As it stands for our group:

Me 1/100 = 1%
Everyone else 0/100 = 0%
Entire PT 1/800 = 0.125% drop rate

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

We're around 100 runs finished now with 800 combined individual chests and I was the only person to get a Mythril. Everyone else has played 6 days for many hours each day and received nothing. We've tried doing things to improve drop rate but nothing seems to work.

As it stands for our group:

Me 1/100 = 1%
Everyone else 0/100 = 0%
Entire PT 1/800 = 0.125% drop rate

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Thanks for the information. I wonder if it was ninja patched at some point and SE just removed it so you really can't progress further. It would be interesting to know if anyone on any server has progressed beyond this point.

I wouldn't mind it taking ages to get a relic weapon if there was at least some way to see that I was really making progress on it. I hate repeating content over and over and getting nothing in return. I'm not even gonna bother with relics if they don't change it.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

Thanks for the information. I wonder if it was ninja patched at some point and SE just removed it so you really can't progress further. It would be interesting to know if anyone on any server has progressed beyond this point.

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Honestly our group came to the conclusion that SE might have made this drop rate considerably low on purpose to stall players from advancing into the quest at such a rapid rate.

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Originally Posted by fusional

farm savage might, you say

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Great info, can't click like enough

Can we get a dev response if this abysmal drop rate for AV/CC is intended or not? Even a browser MMO could get a faster response than this.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Honestly our group came to the conclusion that SE might have made this drop rate considerably low on purpose to stall players from advancing into the quest at such a rapid rate.

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I've speculated this as well.

The developers purposely made the drop rate so impossibly small without being non-existent to keep players from finishing the relic weapon content this early. I mean look around, there seems to be quite a bit of people already on the AV/CC chest step; it's like the developer's last defense @ keeping people from finishing it before "they are ready for people to." I mean it's not very tactful on their part, but down the road (not sure how far) I can see them making an update or something saying "increased drop rate on Miser's Mythril, etc." when they feel like they've added other content to keep people busy as a way of "realistically allowing" players to finish the current relic weapon tasks.


It wouldn't suprise me anyway. This whole relic quest just seems more like some sort of placebo task meant to buy the developers time to make more content without the players totally finishing everything from the last patch.

Or there are sneaky hidden conditions that haven't been figured out to increase drop.

People thought seal drop rate was 1% until 50k+ runs were discovered.

Buuuut probably not. Would be nice if this was addressed by the devs..

2/102 runs now.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

2/102 runs now.

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are you doing speed runs?

apperently some jps are talking about speed having to do with drop rate a bit(unfortunately)

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

are you doing speed runs?

apperently some jps are talking about speed having to do with drop rate a bit(unfortunately)

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Over 90% of those runs were with speed. The only thing we did different that time was one member didn't touch the puddles. Probably doesn't mean anything of course.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Over 90% of those runs were with speed. The only thing we did different that time was one member didn't touch the puddles. Probably doesn't mean anything of course.

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they are not talking just speed but 17 minutes and quicke runs

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

they are not talking just speed but 17 minutes and quicke runs

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I seen the post in question just now.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Can we get a dev response if this abysmal drop rate for AV/CC is intended or not? Even a browser MMO could get a faster response than this.

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Try it under 17 minutes
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post729526

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Originally Posted by Elexia

This would be a bad thing? Wyrm blood is good for your pores and lady regions.

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Mhm... yeah, this.

Apparantly the Japanese players have confirmed you can get the Mythril to drop 100%

Check it.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

Don't do this much... but since people were asking...

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=382120

That blog post is saying clear raids under 15min with 5+ chest and it's 100% drop on the mythril needed for the AF weapon.
Shows pic of the person with 4 of them in inventory.

Hope that helps some... I would probably never reach this stage before 2.0 so useless info for me... /sigh

EDIT: the blog has update says 17min TA also confirmed 100% drop. -

EDIT 2: Further reading other people's blog posts it seems it's different loot pool when you do the regular 25min TA it wont give you the 100% guarantee drop from the chest. Hast to be 17 minutes or under. At least this is what I got for AV one....

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Perhaps people can stop crying about the 0.001% drop rate now?

Of course we wont know for sure until we see some more confirmation.

Lol they wont stop crying, 17min TA is tough and possibly not doable for most, they will come and say bla bla encourage class stacking bla bla SE stupid design bla bla.