It definitely worked on me, All Aboard the Holy Sheltron Self-Healing MP Restoring Super Confiteor Combo Train!Quote:
Originally Posted by VeolE
Dark Knight Megathread
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10-22-2021, 07:15 AMArthurATDayne
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10-22-2021, 07:22 AMTouchandFeel
So here is a more comprehensive post on my thoughts and ideas for Dark Knight after seeing the Endwalker media tour info on Dark Knight.
I will start off by saying that I supported and mostly liked the changes made to Dark Knight in the rework for Shadowbringer because I felt that it established a stronger and more refined foundation to have the job grow from. While I overall had positive feelings towards the rework, I will not deny that I also felt that there were issues that still needed to be addressed, especially long-standing issues that had been voiced for a while like the issues with Living Dead’s death penalty and Blood Weapon not always fitting the full number of GCD attacks within it.
Additionally, I also felt that while it was a better foundation, the rework was missing just a little bit of extra gameplay elements to put it at the same level of the other tank jobs, not from a balance perspective but from a game-play perspective. To me it seemed like the rework was primarily focused on cleaning up existing issues and addressing feedback from during Stormblood, but then fell short on going beyond that to add that extra layer of gameplay that would normally come with a new expansion. This left Dark Knight feeling as if it was one expansion behind in terms of game-play design and evolution.
Based off what has been revealed with the Endwalker media tour it feels like Dark Knight is lacking in direction to establish its own distinct gameplay style. The lack of any changes of real substance that would evolve Dark Knight’s gameplay is disappointing to say the least and just compounds with the existing issues and feeling of being less evolved already really make Dark Knight feel lacking as a job in comparison to the other tank jobs.
Below I go over some of the existing problems with Dark Knight and provide suggestions on how to address them.
I then go over what changes I would like to see for Endwalker that would better help evolve the job into something hopefully more fun to play.
Keep in mind the numeric values such as potencies, durations and recast times are only general “guesstimate” values and could be tweaked for the purpose of balance. It’s not the values that are important but the general gameplay concepts.
Please feel free to respond with feedback, I only ask that you keep interactions respectful and of substance to promote positive and meaningful discussion.
Filling up another Dark Knight focused thread with one-liner quips, insults and rage posts is a sure fire way to have it completely ignored by anyone of influence. If you fill a thread with trash, it will inevitably end up in the bin. Let's not let that happen here.
So let's get to it. First the existing problems and suggested changes.
Blood Weapon
The issue with Blood Weapon is that it’s 10 second duration and the way that it activates, on landing a hit and not on activating/initiating the attack, causes the window to be far too tight and often results in not being able to fit all 5 attacks into the duration window. This is just compounded by the fact that Dark Knight’s AoE attacks are spells and tanks do not get spell speed to lower the GCD recast time of them, making it even harder to fit 5 in.
I suggest making Blood Weapon not work via a duration but to instead work with the stack system that has been established for most other such abilities that used to have short, tight timing windows such as Delirium.
Additionally, I have added a slight self-heal via a trait at lvl.84. This will help bring Dark Knight’s self-healing more in line with other tanks and is inspired by Paladin’s new trait that adds healing to Holy Spirit and Holy Circle. Blood Weapon also traditionally healed the user in the Final Fantasy series, so it is only fitting to have this iteration heal as well.
Lvl.35: Blood Weapon
Ability – Range: Self - Cast: Instant – Recast: 60s
Provides 5 stacks of Blood Weapon for a duration of 30s.
Upon landing a weaponskill or spell, 1 stack of Blood Weapon is consumed. When a stack of Blood Weapon is consumed; the Blood Gauge is increased by 10, MP is restored, and HP is restored with a cure potency of 200.
Dark Mind
The problem with Dark Mind is the fact that it only affects a specific damage type, magic, which greatly limits when it can be used effectively.
I suggest addressing this issue by removing Dark Mind and replacing it with the new Endwalker ability Oblation, which itself is removed from its place at lvl.82. I also increased the mitigation from 10% to 15% since this change would technically reduce the number of defensive abilities that Dark Knight has. Making it able to be used on a party member also helps distinguish it among the tank unique defensive abilities.
Lvl.45: Oblation (replaces Dark Mind)
Ability – Range: 0y -Radius: 30y – Cast: Instant – Charge Time: 60s
Reduces damage taken by a party member or self by 15%.
Duration: 10s
Maximum Charges: 2
Living Dead
This is one that players have been asking to be changed since Dark Knight was introduced in Heavensward. It is the only tank invulnerability ability that has a caveat effect that has a hardline requirement in needing 100% of total tank hp restored or it literally kills the tank. This makes this ability the only such defensive ability requiring such a high level of healing which makes it, as others have deemed it, “a healing black hole”. All other invulnerabilities require only just enough healing so that the tank doesn’t die right after their invulnerability wears off, which is almost always far less than what Living/Walking Dead requires. This problem is then complicated even more by the fact that how the ability even works is not messaged well. There is no good indication of when the transition from Living Dead to Walking Dead occurs, which often leads to being healed too early so Walking Dead never activates and the ability is wasted or not being healed at all or too late because the healer didn’t notice that it triggered. The remaining amount needing to be healed isn’t conveyed at all, making it a guessing game which can lead to over-healing and wasted resources, or not getting healed enough and the tank dying. Then to top it all off, once the healing requirement is met, the ability ends which means that an overzealous healer could heal too quickly and remove the invulnerability effect too early which can easily get the tank killed, and not to mention it guarantees that the Dark Knight will never get a full 10s of invulnerability since when that 10s is reached, the Dark Knight drops dead.
With all the above issues which have been around since Heavensward, making all other tank invulnerabilities 10 seconds long in Endwalker just makes the already problematic Living Dead that much worse by comparison.
At this point Living Dead absolutely must be addressed and preferably completely replaced.
I suggest replacing it with the ability below, Danse Macabre. This ability tries to keep the style and general concept but reworks the mechanics to make it match better with the other invulnerability abilities. It is designed somewhat to be a reverse Superbolide in which instead of being set to minimum HP, you are set to maximum HP and then it reduces you down by 33% per server tick over 3 ticks for a total of 99% of your total health. Functionally they are almost exactly the same asides from two important factors. First, going to full HP is less likely to give your healer a heart attack like dropping to 1HP would. Second, going to max HP and then having it decrease over ~9s makes it easier for a healer to lose out healing through over-healing if they cast the heals too early on. This little extra complication and consideration towards healing is what justifies the lower recast compared to Superbolide.
Lvl.50: Danse Macabre (Replaces Living Dead)
Ability –Range: Self - Cast: Instant – Recast: 300s
Recovers HP to full and renders you impervious to most attacks for a duration of 10s.
Additional Effect: Afflicts the Dark Knight with Death’s March.
- Death’s March effect: Gradually damages the Dark Knight over 10s for a total of their maximum HP. This damage cannot reduce the Dark Knight below 1 HP
Abyssal Drain
The problem with Abyssal Drain is that it is meant to act as Dark Knight’s equivalent to the other tank 60s self-heal abilities, however it is far too skewed towards being effective against large groups of enemies while being extremely weak against single targets.
I suggest the changes to the ability outlined below that instead provide a set potency cure on ability usage. While it may decrease the heal somewhat in large enemy groups of 6 or more enemies, it is far more effective in single target situations like boss fights. I also increased the damage a bit to the primary target while keeping it the same for any other enemies to make it have a little more “oomph” in single-target. Overall the goal was to make the ability better for boss fights, trials, etc. where you are fighting a single target since this is where the ability was severely lacking.
Lvl.56: Abyssal Drain
Ability – Range: 20y – Radius: 5y – Cast: Instant – Recast: 60s
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 300 to the target and 50% for all remaining enemies.
Additional Effect: Restores own HP on use.
Cure Potency: 1000
Delirium
I'm not going to go into the complaint of Delirium being a "discount Inner Release" or that spamming a single ability a bunch is boring, it is, because I think that making it 3 uses as opposed to 5 and at 60s instead of 90s will help alleviate some of this and not make it feel as bad.
My problem with Delirium, based on what we saw with the media tour, is that the ability restores far too little MP. I already felt that Delirium returned too little in the Shadowbringer version and with it going from 5 uses to 3 uses with Endwalker, the situation will just be exacerbated.
Personally I would like to see each stack of Delirium restoring 1000MP so that you end up gaining 3000MP from Delirium, enough for a single use of an MP spender ability.
Stalwart Soul
The problem with Stalwart Soul is not the ability itself but when it is acquired. All the other tanks get the second step for their AoE combo at level 40 while Dark Knight doesn’t get theirs until level 72. This makes the leveling process for the job or doing level synced down not as smooth or enjoyable as the other tanks.
My suggestion is simple, lower the level at which Stalwart Soul is acquired to 40 or somewhere thereabouts.
Living Shadow
While Living Shadow is a bit of a controversial ability with part of the community feeling that it is good while another part feeling that it is boring because it has zero interactivity with the player or with the rest of the kit.
I won’t be addressing those concerns here, addressed in later changes, and instead just wanted to suggest a very simple tweak that I have seen mentioned here and there for a while, to simply remove the Blood cost on the ability since it is already gated by a very long recast time for an offensive ability and having a resource cost in addition to the long recast is just excessive.
Additionally, effective uptime of the simulacrum can be diminished during periods where the target enemy moves around a lot which is a huge detriment to this ability. The base movement speed of the simulacrum should be increased to compensate for this.
Lvl. 80: Living Shadow
Ability – Range: 0 – Radius: 0 – Cast: Instant – Recast: 120
Conjures a simulacrum of your darkside to fight alongside you.
Simulacrum Attack Potency: 300
Duration: 24s
Now I will go over my suggested changes and ideas for levels 81 – 90 in Endwalker. I will outline all ability and traits gained during these levels, so you may see some things like the Melee Mastery trait in there or other stuff that is unchanged from what was shown in the media tour.
The main goal of these suggestions is to provide changes and an evolution to abilities more inline with changes made to the other tanks, as well as introducing new gameplay elements that would provide a more defined and unique feel to Dark Knight. Basically a bit to make DRK more like the other tank jobs where it should be more similar and a bit to differentiate it where it should be more different.
Lvl.82
Lvl.82: Enhanced the Blackest Night
Trait
When the barrier from The Blackest Night is absorbed the following additional effects are granted.
Additional Effect: Restores HP to self or target with a Cure Potency of 800.
Additional Effect: Grants Shadow’s Embrace to self or target for a duration of 10 seconds.
- Shadow’s Embrace effect: reduce damage taken by 10%.
This change is just simply to more closely mirror the buff changes made to the other tank frequent use defensive abilities. Seeing what was done to them while TBN went unchanged felt wrong and giving DRK Oblation was not enough to even things out.
Having the new additional effects be triggered from TBN breaking keeps the additional mitigation from potentially getting in the way of TBN breaking and while you don't get the benefit of the defensive effects stacking like the other tanks get, it does result in the effects being more spread out and therefore giving DRK a longer period of increased defenses which I feel is a worthwhile trade-off.
Lvl.84
Lvl.84: Melee Mastery
Trait
Increases the potency of Hard Slash to 210, Syphon Strike to 110, and Souleater to 110.
Same as media tour.
Lvl.84: Enhanced Living Shadow
Trait
Increases the potency of attacks dealt by your simulacrum to 300.
Same as media tour.
Lvl.84: Enhanced Blood Weapon
Trait
Provides the additional effect of restoring HP with a cure potency of 300 when a stack of Blood Weapon is consumed.
This change just adds the self-heal to Blood Weapon as mentioned in the previous section.
Lvl.86
Lvl.86: Shadow Blade
Trait
Executing Edge of Shadow provides the effect Shadow Blade for 12s.
- Shadow Blade effect: allows the execution of Scourge.
Lvl.86: Scourge
Weaponskill – Range: 3y – Radius: 0y – Cast: Instant – Recast: 2.5s
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 200 and additional damage over time with a potency of 60 for a duration of 15s.
Additional Effect: Restores MP and increases Blood Gauge by 10.
Can only be executed while under the effect of Shadow Blade. Effect fades upon execution.
This trait and new ability is to try to change up and add more of a unique feel to Dark Knight's rotation, specifically in the GCD aspect to break up the Soul Eater combo more. To me Dark Knight is supposed to be somewhat the antithesis of Paladin. PLD having a very strict and defined rotation fits very well with the overarching delineation that exists in the Final Fantasy series between Light/Order and Darkness/Chaos, with PLD representing order with a very ordered rotation and DRK representing chaos. To then build on this thematic difference, the idea of making DRK having a more freeform rotation made up of oGCDs and GCDs that are gated by resources moreso than a strict linear rotation or timers would hopefully result in a more dynamic and "chaotic" rotation.
The idea of having the GCD follow up from an oGCD came from the initial interpretation from the media tour teaser where the Shadowbringer ability was thought to be a weaponskill that seemed to follow from Edge, sort of like a reverse Continuation or sort of like the old version of Dark Arts.
I then made it a DoT to force spacing them out a little bit to remove the potential of having to spam it and in the hopes that with it being spaced out at more regular intervals that it would be more effective at changing up the GCD gameplay for the job.
It was made "Scourge" because people have being saying that they want that ability back and here was a way that fit.
Lvl.88
Lvl.88: Enhanced Dark Arts
Trait
Increases the number of Dark Arts that can be stored to 2.
This change adds more flexibility and strategy towards Dark Arts, essentially turning it into more of another resource to utilize and plan around.
Lvl.88: Salt and Darkness
Ability – Range: 0y – Radius: 0y – Cast: Instant – Recast: 15s
All enemies standing in the corrupted patch of Salted Earth takes additional unaspected damage with a potency of 500.
Additional Effect: Increases Blood Gauge by 30.
This is basically the same as the media tour version, I just added a bit of Blood gain on usage just to have more abilities tie back into the resource gameplay of Dark Knight.
Lvl.90
Lvl.90: Shadowbringer
Ability – Range: 10yx10y line - Cast: Instant – Charge Time: 30s – MP Cost: 3000
Deals unaspected damage to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 700 for the first enemy, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.
Maximum Charges: 2
Can only be executed while under the effect of Darkside.
If executed while under the effect of Dark Arts, a Dark Arts will be consumed instead of MP.
This change is meant to do a few things.
First it changes it from just another independent oGCD to one that is tied into your primary resource MP. This then connects Shadowbringer and Edge/Flood so that they will not compete for space in your opener/burst periods since Shadowbringer will be used in place of an Edge instead of having to fit it alongside. Making it cost MP also makes Shadowbringer less of a "fire when available and forget" ability since it will require at least a little bit of planning to make sure you have the resources to use it.
Second, it is changed from a 60s recast with 2 charges to a 30s recast with 2 charges to make it available more frequently. You will already be trying to use both charges in a single burst period and doing that every 120s is just too infrequent and so making it every 60s felt right.
Additionally the potencies were adjusted to compensate for the MP cost, rolling in the potency of edge/flood as a starting point and then layering on the additional potency of the media tour version of the ability to make my rework relatively equitable.
Lvl.90: Enhanced Living Shadow II
Trait
Allows the execution of Living Shadowbringer.
Lvl.90 Living Shadowbringer
Ability – Range: 10y x 10y line – Cast: Instant
Causes your simulacrum to use the ability Shadowbringer which delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line in front of it with a potency of 500 for the first enemy, and 20% less for all remaining enemies. Your simulacrum will dissipate after execution. If not manually activated while your simulacrum is active, it will be triggered automatically before dissipating.
Additional Effect: Restores MP based on the amount of remaining duration for the simulacrum when used. No MP is restored if the ability is automatically triggered.
*This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.
This change is basically a revision of Machinist's Pile Bunker for their Automaton Queen with the intent of taking the passive "your shadow now uses Shadowbringer" trait and turning it into something a little more interactive.
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10-22-2021, 08:16 AMVeolEOf course! It was my plan all along... :')Quote:
Originally Posted by Valknut
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10-22-2021, 08:28 AMVeolEExactlyyyy... just like the ShB cinematic opening... "Become what you must....The Warrior ofQuote:
Originally Posted by ArthurATDayne
DarknessLight. -
10-22-2021, 08:35 AMRyaduera
If only it were possible to coordinate a mass DRK boycott where all of Endwalker just nobody gets DRK to 90. Then devs might have data for how bad it feels to play this class.
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10-22-2021, 08:55 AMArthurATDayneI think the only way that's going to happen is if Warriors are allowed to Glamour their Axes to Greatswords... or some widely available mod that won't get you banned that makes Axes look like Greatswords :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryaduera
Bonuses for making the Greatsword Glamour really shinny -
10-22-2021, 11:07 AMShurrikhanMost don't stream anyways, so an ability skin set honestly would just about cover the needs of most PC players who would play DRK only for the aesthetics... sad as it is to admit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurATDayne
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10-22-2021, 12:27 PMMagiusNecros
We need Heavensward Dark Arts back along with Stormblood Blood Price and Abyssal Drain. TBN either needs to lose the MP cost and have a 25 second recast or have no CD and be a flat MP cost. Can't be both.
Living Dead needs to change. Devs can't ignore it anymore.
Designing Dark Knight's defensives around TBN is such a shit show. And if it is going to be centered around one defensive skill it needs to be strong.
The lack of mitigation and self sustain is damn obnoxious compared to the other Tanks. Especially with the offheals that Paladin attack magic now provides. -
10-22-2021, 03:16 PMShin96I would love this. I had so much fun despite the issues in Stormblood. Yes it wasn't anywhere near perfect, but you'd be in awe if you didn't see me play DRK everyday up to that point. Heavensward was peak amazement to me, even better than StB.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
That said, I'd never miss 5.0 DRK. There's no magical moment, no satisfying impact, no gameplay loop that sells me the job as a main. Sad times that this will go on for 4 years including Endwalker. -
10-22-2021, 05:30 PMbundythenoob
final thoughts before I cannot post due to having no membership...or before I get banned again for calling out the lack of hiring dedicated devs lmao
firstly, change Darkside into a haste buff. we wouldn't need the 10% damage if we just got more mana generation from our mana generation abilities hell, lock us out of mana regen ticks if you must. this way you can buff Blood Weapon, Carve n Spit, Stalwart, and Delirium's mana generation. 600 mana is absolutely pathetic, especially for CnS lv 60 capstone ability. 200 per bloodspiller doesn't even begin to feel impactful considering you can just idly regen more mana by standing still during the ever popular transitional cutscenes. hell this might even make Darkside meaningful since you can choose to let it run out to regain regen ticks before that sweet Lahabrea Unreal transition.
I actually don't see a lot of people talking bout the positive aspects of Oblyat. I think its an incredibly useful skill that, when combined with Dark Mind, fits perfectly into DRKs lack of personal active mitigation at lower levels! what do you mean its not unlocked at lv 35?? just combine it with Dark Mind and give it a trait to evolve into TBN 4head its not like there isn't already an existing skill with a generic 10% mit + 20% specific mit anyway *cough*camoflauge*cough*
if BW ever gets moved to a charge system, PLEASE move it to lv 30 alongside Flood, move stalwart to lv 45, and Dark Missionary to lv 68. what's the worst thing that can happen, making low level DRK kit more fun and interactive? making DRK fall in line with its bretheren for Ultimates? just buff them via a trait for later content or something if you really can't """balance them""". it's not like we haven't seen them use traits to buff base damages for future content anyway
TBN MUST receive a mitigation + heal trait at lv 82 now that everyone else got their personal mitigation buffed. hell, may as well give it a trait at lv 84 to hold a second """Dark Arts""" charge. not like there exists a real lv 84 trait anyway [v:
a lot of people keep suggesting Abyssal Drain be outright deleted. It should seriously be turned into a mana spender again, which can definitely be balanced with the "x pot on first enemy, x% less on remaining". god forbid we get more spenders seeing as how our lv 90 skill isn't even a spender anyway. having both AD and Shadowbringer be spenders would do much to add to DRKs gameplay identity, while allowing players to make meaningful choices in what they spend on their opener or during downtime while alleviating the whole "20+ hours of Darkside uptime"
salted darkness doesnt produce any blood? missed opportunity tbh. Salted Earth already needs blood generation to make up for its neutered potency/duration, why not at least give it that and let salted darkness lifesteal for a fixed amount if you must balance it? rather than delete a classic, once powerful skill, buff it! no more deleted animations please, Power Slash, Scourge, Shadowskin, and Dark Arts never deserved this.
as for Living Dead, just make it into a pseudo "charge" that lasts 30 seconds, and make Walking dead give a simple 30% Convalescence buff. even that would be enough to make it useful for emergency situations while retaining """class identity"""
it's not like the 4 DPS job devs are going to replace them with anything else as iconic or useful anyway. we'll probably just get a generic line aoe named Endwalker with 2 charges and get told to wait for the 7.1 emergency buff to Enhanced Unmend II.
finally, good luck to everyone here. If they EVER fix DRK and SCH I might come back, but otherwise please look forward to 7.5 rework where they finally got some feedback off of mrhappy's twitch chat or r/ffxivstories something.
"there wasn't much we could do with SCH/DRK/MCH/BRD/DRG/SMN/SAM" -
10-22-2021, 05:40 PMRyaduera
Just bring back Dark Arts that costs Darkside time and turns our 1-2-3 combo into a new combo. Make it work like an inverse Continuation that you have you cast it before each global to turn it unto a high potency combo. But unlike continuation, you can use this anytime you can spare the Darkside timer. Doesn't solve the double weave bloat, but it's still good.
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10-22-2021, 06:02 PMShin96I agree. It's ironic they removed the most iconic animations from the job. You never got tired from seeing them. All they kept pales in comparison to what we had. Especially the Souleater 1-2-3 combo. I don't get why you would even do this to be perfectly honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
Also, don't forget Dark Passenger. FoS has nothing on that. -
10-22-2021, 06:13 PMMortexYeah I do think flood and edge are super lazy design wise but I did say also the same about inner chaos and chaos cyclone being inner beast and steel cyclone just in red. I mean for flood and edge they actually copy pasted cecils dark knight attacks from dissidia nt for it,The same way they did it for kefka. It’s just sad how they did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin96
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10-22-2021, 10:56 PMDerio
Should change Dark Mind to 10% magic and 10% physical mitigation. Oblation should heal you for 20% of your maximum hp over the duration to give DRK some kind of sustain outside of souleater spam.
As for BW and LD. I dont expect any changes. -
10-22-2021, 11:13 PMTsiron
At this point just scrap DRK and start over, tbh...
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10-23-2021, 05:23 AMCithaerias_pyropina
Make Living Dead give you 90% damage reduction for 10 seconds and every time you're hit you gain 1 stack of 30% lifesteal. Oh wait, that'd make DRK's big tank CD look better than Warrior's immense self-healing kit + Holmgang. And you know by now you can't make Warrior look bad.
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10-23-2021, 01:06 PMTribezer0Pretty sure we just got Dark Passenger back with a few tweeks to make us think its something new...Quote:
Originally Posted by Keotastrophe
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10-23-2021, 03:27 PMRayplicant
Make living dead have a 1 second cool down and change its effect to instantly kill the dark knight granting immunity to resurrection/raise cast on the dark knight for 60 minutes.
I think this would be more in line with your current vision for the job.
Thank you! -
10-24-2021, 01:54 AMKaixernThere is absolutely no way they would take away some of our best looking spells (animations and visual effect wise) just to give us a new version later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribezer0
It's like those people saying that they constantly give our mechanics and gameplay abilities to other classes, preposterous!
And even then, why even care about kit interaction, skill syngergy, class identity and good gameplay when you have shiny visuals and great story for this class.
Now if you'll excuse me i need to repair my sarcasm detector which is now burning.
Again.
/s -
10-24-2021, 02:29 PMTranquilmelody7It needs to wipe the entire party instead of just the DRK player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayplicant
Then we can really be DARK knights. -
10-24-2021, 08:30 PMMortexReminds me of the Europe data center split only for them to fuse them back together 2 expansions later and sell it as new and fresh thing………. It’s funny how some jobs (dps) get cool looking animations (stardiver and now drg also gets cool looking nidhogg moves on his base rotation) and some specific job category aka healer and tanks get really bad and boring animations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaixern
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10-24-2021, 08:56 PMAbsurdityWhile that is an issue it's a very minor one. They could make DrK the flashiest job in the world with the coolest animations, if all I'm doing is spamming 1-2-3 then those flashy effects don't help me be any less bored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortex
It's an issue I have with warrior for example, the new abilities all look very flashy, doesn't fix the fact that warrior has the depth of a puddle. -
10-24-2021, 09:18 PMCrimsonrockDark Knight Changes Suggestion
To Be honest, I felt very disappoint for the change for Dark knight (DK) in Endwalker(EW). As for what I heard from others, The developer setting the dark knight direction to be more focus to damage mitigation with proper mana regen and less HP regen compare to other tank especially warrior (WAR) and paladin (PLD). WAR of course more focus to self healing with less mitigation, PLD more focus to party utility, self HP/Mana Regen and of course blocking attack, and Gunbreaker (GNB) more focus to dps.
However, for the change that they announced, Other tanks seem to have more mitigation than DK, which makes DK lose its position as one of the four tank available, not to mention all of them have more self healing. Even GNB, a dps tank had more self healing than DK.
Yes people may say DK had "The Blackest Night" (TBN), which is the best damage mitigation compared to other tank. However, this will not be a thing in EW since other tank had their own version of TBN. Even before EW, the only mitigation DK had as a tank that superior than other tank is TBN. Giving other tank their own TBN version will surely make DK loses its advantage.
Yes, people will say "but you can absorb damage equal to 25% of your HP, which makes 100% HP amount since TBN only had 15 second CD, combined with the new ability Oblation will become 35% every 15 second, which make up to 140%." No that's not true. Both are different type of mitigation, one as damage absorb and latter as damage taken reduction.
The reason why we use TBN is because we want it to break so that we could gain a charge of Edge of Darkness/Edge of shadow. Therefore maintaining dps since all the ability mentioned consume 3000MP. We wont pop TBN if we didn't assume the shield will break in time (TBN last 7 sec). Therefore, we only pop TBN when tank buster occur. Most of the dungeon boss normal attack won't break the shield in time (excluding those that had damage increase mechanics and damage taken increase debuff). The awkward situation is when you pop TBN to withstand boss attack, later on boss start performing tank buster and your TBN fade away (TBN still in CD), this became more difficult while fighting trial/raid boss where mechanics changing are harder to read.
DK dps is no quite decent compare to other tank, Most of the time is only on par or lesser than other tank. therefore the only thing tank has that is unique and superior is TBN. But this will not be a thing after EW release. -
10-24-2021, 09:18 PMCrimsonrock
Therefore, I decide to give suggestions that DK can be improve to maintain competition with other tanks. The first thing to improve is the most important part of tank, Mitigation.
Firstly, TBN. The change I can think of is simply increase its duration to around 9s or 10s. which allows the shield to break in time more often, which prevent dps loss.
Now for damage mitigation, TBN is definetely not enough. The new oblation only increase 10% damage reduction, which other tank also had but with 3 to 4 additional effects which are pretty decent, also its CD is 1 min (2 charge) while other is 25 sec. Therefore, oblation definitely need also.
The first thing I can think of is add a effect that allows you to regen mana and create a shield that absorb damage equal to the amount you deal while landing a weaponskill. (can set a limit of maximun 300 to 400 potency shield if consider too OP). if these still consider too OP, then set it to only occur for certain weaponskills like bloodspiller and Quietus. since we won't cast these two so frequently outside or Blood Weapon (BW) and Delirium.
The second is add a self regen. Yes dk not suppose to focus on HP regen, but other tank had HP regen for their new mitigation ability and DK will be hard to compete without a HP regen since dk only HP regen is souleater and Abyssal Drain (1 min CD). Therefore, they may add something unique like immediately regen 15% to 20% of your HP when your HP drop below 50% (only occur once per charge of oblation). (reference form removed ability "Sole Survivor"). Maybe also a effect that regen mana while being attacked (reference from "Blood Price").
Another suggestion is simply add a damage absorb effect for bloodspiller and Quietus if didn't add those additional effect mentioned above to oblation. For example, like bloodspiller will regen 200 to 300 mana (since got a word blood) and create a shield that absorb damage equally to damage deal (could set a limit of 300 to 400 potency if consider too op). While Quietus will create a shield that absorb 50 to 80 potency per target hits (since is an aoe). this will be pretty decent when use with Delirium since it allows you to use 3 stack of the ability any time within 30 sec. (attack and defense in the same time sounds cool and I prefer more to it). -
10-24-2021, 09:19 PMCrimsonrock
Now for the dps part.
first of all, its OGCD. PLD got spirt within/Expiarcion, GNB got Blasting Zone and WAR have Upheaval/Orogency, There are all 30 second CD. Then why DK Carve and Spit is 1 min CD. Pls change it to 30 sec. if 600 mana regen for every 30 second as an OGCD consider too OP, then decrease the mana regen to 300 just like spirit within.
Abyssal Drain could have a increase in healing potency since is the only two HP regen DK had if no other additional HP regen add in EW. Or make it to 2 charge.
For the Plunge, while not just change the trait to allow if to have 3 charge instead of reduce 5 second cd for every Unmend cast. Not saying that I don't like the the current trait, it just felt wierd.
Furthermore, pls change the categories of aoe GCD attack of DK to Weaponskills. You know the reasons.
For Salted Earth, I don't have problem with it so not gonna say something to it.
For BW, can change it to like have duration of 15 sec instead of 10 second. is a dps lose when you pop it accidently and the boss immediately go to other phase that you can't do melee dps. Or can change it to like stacks just like Delirium. Or change it back to what it likes in HW, where it has 15 sec duration, increase your skill speed by 10% and regen mana. The current BW just felt not nice compared to other tanks.
Now for additional part I want a change is shadowbringer, its animation. The current one seems like a 3x/4x Floor of Shadow stacking together. I would like to have a cool animation, something like......."Getsuga tensoh" (Bleach reference). just a joke, forget about this. -
10-24-2021, 09:21 PMCrimsonrock
Dark Arts.
Some people complain about the Dark Arts mechanics. I actually started in shadowbringer so I not sure what they were complained initially. But after I take a look for how dark arts work in previous expansion. I get their reasons. The original dark arts works something like ninja Kassatsu where yo can augmented your ability. DK can augmented one of their their offensive as well as defensive OGCD every time after poping dark arts. But now, dark arts can other pop by TBN and only effect Edge of shadow and Flood of Shadow. which make DK felt less unique compared to other tank.
The first change I think of is make it to like how Ninja Kassatsu works. but that will be what just like previous expansion does. which people complain about how their fingers broke while continuous clicking dark arts ability.
So, I thinking about maybe make the dark arts able to stack up to 3 stacks. But after i monitor myself. These design will give rise to another problem.
Take a scenario as an example. while fighting boss, I have 2 stack of dark arts, and my mana is about to over leak. I choose to cast Edge of shadow/Flood of Shadow since it consume mana. However, due to how dark arts, my dark arts consumed instead of mana. which lead to my mana still over leak and no dark arts to empower my defensive OGCD to withstand tank buster and other boss mechanics.
Another example, I choose to wait for boss tank buster and mechanic so that I have dark arts to empower my Defensive OGCD. However, this will lead to decrease in dps due to the affect of darkside and Mana overleak.
Change of Dark Arts I could think of
So, after thinking, I suggest maybe the developer can make categories for dark arts. An offensive Dark Art, Defensive Dark Arts, and Omnipotent Dark Art (could use as both offensive and defensive dark Arts if none of these are stacked). Dark Arts can stll be stack up to 3 but each stack for different types of Dark Arts.
Offensive Dark Arts are use to empower offensive OGCD such as Carve and Spit and both Edge of shadow/Flood of Shadow(gain from doing combo such as Souleater and Stalwart Soul), Defensive Darts are use to empower defensive OGCD such as Shadow Wall (gain from TBN).
Omnipotent gained by poping a ability call "Dark Arts". (Dark Arts originally gain by just clicking "Dark Arts"). And it will provide defensive Dark Arts instead if Omnipotent had stacked. Provide Offensive if other two had stacked.
These way, if could make it more covenience for DK to pop both offensive and defensive abilities without colliding with others.
All these just an idea that randomly came out from my mind. I know my idea is definitely not the best one for DK so I don't mind if you guys have better idea to share. -
10-24-2021, 09:22 PMCrimsonrock
Actually for the dark arts design.
I think can just cast aside the Defensive Dark Arts idea if the developer add some change like give extra damage absorb shield while casting bloodspiller and Quietus and add additional effect like extra mitigation or self HP regen for oblation. This change could quite likely make DK able to compete with other tanks in EW.
After that, they could just make dark arts to empower not just edge of darkness/Flood of Darkness but also empower other Offensive OGCD like plunge, Carve and Split and Abyssal Drain since "Dark Arts potency" and "Dark Arts Affect" were a thing during HW and Stormblood.
With these, I hope they can change the TBN, like not gain dark arts after shield break but gain it immediately after shield fade away. since other tank don't have penalty for their short CD mitigation.
The last idea I could think of is made an additional effect at level 88 or 90 that allows your living shadow also grand you TBN/Oblation when your HP drop to a certain percentage or before the time duration runs out. We Living dead (Our inner anger /hatred as a form of Fray), we get TBN (a manifest of our feeling of guilty as a form of Myste) why not combine it together as a form of living shadow that fight alongside you. (Can forgot about this idea if it sounds too OP to you, this is just a random idea came out from my mind.) -
10-24-2021, 09:26 PMAluja89
The EW job trailer for DRK felt utterly low effort, like someone felt proud to put it out there and not feel embarrassed. How do you have a greatsword wielding tank bent on judging corruption and all it does is puff out farts of darkness?
Having said that, I also have to blame the playerbase for continually playing it. Me included, which is why I'll be leaving DRK 80 on both my characters.
I'm this close to designing my own DRK with storyboard animations and rotation spreadsheets for every 10 levels. But it'll most likely fall on deaf ears. -
10-25-2021, 12:55 AMMekhana
I've been reading the JP tank forums and lately, it came around to the same things we've been discussing. Let us hope the devs at least listen to them since there's no language barrier instead. I've been lurking in this forum for what feels like 10 years. I don't know why I even bother anymore. It feels like these discussions are being directed at a brick wall.
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10-25-2021, 03:07 AMKeagianI wouldn't expect any changes to happen until 7.0. We've been screaming at them for changes and they've pretty much ignored it all. Making suggestion on the English forms is pointless since the dev's won't bother to even check it unless it contains leaks. I've seen some Japanese players complain and still they haven't done anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhana
At this point I just assume the Dev's really hate Dark Knight and is on a vendetta to make it the worst tank as possible.
It took them 4+ years to finally come up with a decent fix for Monk, its gonna take them 6+ years to even look at DRK and think about giving changes. -
10-25-2021, 06:51 AMMagiusNecros
I think given the time they've had they go out of their way on how to make the job shittier and shittier each expansion.
Have a fun video from Xenosys Vex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inXoCV9Czus
The swift action in regards to leaks was the funniest shit I've seen in a while. IF it was anything else they did nothing but like a damn snake they lash out immediately with their very own SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED. -
10-25-2021, 12:35 PMJPMJFrom a Japanese perspective, I'm worried that the opinions of Japanese dark knight players may not be very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhana
Especially the reaction of the media tour was the worst in Japan
For example, I want you to make one attack heavier and bigger than the attack style like Monk.
Since there are many ogcd, I want you to summarize (including the reason of ↑)
I want you to change the Delirium
Poor self-healing ability
Only Soul Eater combo, so monotonous movement
Living dead is hard to use
These have been said for a long time
There are many other opinions, but they haven't improved yet.
I think the development team is working hard
But I hope the Dark Knight will become more like a Dark Knight. -
10-25-2021, 01:07 PMShurrikhanSapping 80% of a job's identity and depth, leaving it a haphazard and watered-down mush, is a "decent" fix? Wait, then why are we complaining about present DRK?Quote:
Originally Posted by Keagian
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10-25-2021, 01:24 PMMarxamI find it funny that all these problems that players have can be solved by reverting DRK to 3.0-4.0 and updating it to modern meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPMJ
Big attack heavier and Bigger? = 3.0 DA buffed potencies of gcds
Ogcds have no reasoning? = 3.0 DA gave ogcd utlity like blind
Change to Delirium? = 3.0 was a combo INT debuff and 4.0 extended timers on Blood Weapon/Price
Poor self healing ability? = Abyssal Drain spam
Only combo rotation? = 3.0 had 3 combos, 4.0 had two combos
Living Dead hard to use? = Listen to player feedback
A lot of these have already been solved in past expansions as stated in the examples above, with the exception of LD. I just think they're trying too hard to make DRK into a poormans WAR/MCH hybrid. You got the one combo rotation and tons of ogcd playstyle of MCH but no control over your shadow. You got the same offensive cd as WAR but not as effective in damage or utility. I have other opinions on these changes but will wait till the release for my final thoughts. Though lets put it this way, if I was a gambling man I would go all in because I know my call is right. -
10-25-2021, 04:05 PMLythThat video was a good watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
For all this talk during the media tour on how the dev team 'plays their own game' (which gets shoehorned in once per interview), I'd really be curious to know what jobs they actually play. I'd be incredibly surprised if any of them actually plays DRK on a regular basis. They just have no idea what they're doing with the job, and can't be bothered to listen to feedback.
The skill speed/spell speed merger should be just common sense by this point. It doesn't make sense to specifically penalize some jobs just because they have a gish aesthetic. And yes, if you can't merge the two attributes because of historical potato 1.x code, then just turn everything into weaponskills. Likewise, Blood Weapon was another bizarre miss by the dev team. Why they used a stack system for Delirium and not for Blood Weapon is beyond me. Unless they only thought of Delirium because they were adjusting IR. It's like they don't know what actions are even on the job to begin with.
The point about merging down Abyssal Drain, Salted Earth, and Salt and Darkness was an interesting idea. I find it strange that the dev team kept it at 90 seconds on the basis that we'd have too much weaving. That's not a solution at all, because it's still going to show up in your opener and at three minute intervals. It achieves nothing other than making the action more awkward. If you're worried that a job has too many weaves, then perhaps balance it out with some more weaponskills?
While I like Oblation aesthetically, I'm not really sure what it adds, unless you're allowed to stack both charges on the same target. If you're using it for targeted mitigation, there are much better options, and if you're using the charges to protect two targets at the same time you might as well just Reprisal it for what it's worth. The fact that Reprisal is a role action and provides more mitigation on the same recast should tell you a lot about Oblation's value.
For comparison, look at Arcane Crest, a level 40 Reaper ability:
- Applies a barrier blocking 10% of your total HP
- When the barrier breaks, restores HP over time to self and nearby party members
- 30 second recast
How is this level 40 melee dps action a better mitigation move than a level 82 tank action? Boggles the mind.
What they could have done is just removed the MP cost and the Dark Arts proc from TBN, increased the recast slightly, and made Oblation a 10% barrier shield that does something interesting when it breaks. Perhaps it gives you a Dark Arts proc. Perhaps it reflects back some damage. Just make it interesting.
I think part of the reason why Shadowbringer doesn't seem overly exciting is because you don't really earn it. It's just there, to be pressed on recast. DRK doesn't really build towards anything, which is a bit strange for a resource focused job.
I don't think that their approach to the job system is sustainable. They're adding more and more new jobs to try and attract new players, but there's clearly not enough staff to support the existing ones. -
10-25-2021, 04:14 PMDuskane
Arcane crest is pretty busted considering its a shield plus a indom tier heal for the party and way less of a CD compared to shade shift
I doubt itll stay like this -
10-25-2021, 09:07 PMRatCopterI'm willing to bet a lot of money that's exactly the case. Everything about EW DRK seems like a total afterthought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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10-25-2021, 11:51 PMMagiusNecros
Oh DRK was an afterthought when it comes to Delirium. You can just compare Delirium and Inner Release right now.
Delirium:
1. 3 Stacks of Delirium allowing the Use of Bloodspiller(200 MP) or Quietus(500 MP) each restoring some MP without cost.
Inner Release:
1. 3 stacks of Inner Release allowing the use of Fell Cleave or Decimate without cost.
2. All these attacks are critical direct hits.
3. While you have stacks you are immune or nullify most forms of Stun, Sleep, Bind, Heavy and most knockback effects.
4. Extends your damage buff Surging Tempest by 10s up to a cap of 60s.
5. Grants use of Primal Rend. Does not use up a stack of IR. 20y range.
Like wow not even a Darkside extender in there. God damn. -
10-26-2021, 12:11 AMOizen
The implications of Enhanced living shadow worry me, does this mean with every future expansion we're going to have to get another version of it just to add the skills from that expansion to it, for a move that is entirely fire and forget
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10-26-2021, 04:07 AMKaixernHey watch your tongue!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
this could be categorized as "leaking the next expansion" so please be wary of what you say on the official forums please
/s
(But seriously imagine getting another wave of messages deleted because of that, at this point i wouldn't know if i should laugh or cry )