Gender locked race?

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

It let's them add the most requested race (predominantly female viera) which is a sure bet to be a popular race, whereas male viera may be more of a gamble.

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what is the smallest gamble male viera, ronso, rev or an unknown race?

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Originally Posted by Mansion

It's Square Enix anyway; Square at that time for FFT, but still SE. They own the rights on the whole Final Fantasy licence. They can throw Kefka in a raid, Krile as an NPC.
Just like Bloodborne has Moonlight Greatsword, originating from other From Software games. They can do what they want with their original creations.

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Even interhouse they have to deal with copyright. It's one of the reasons why we have a Guest Creator in Matsuno who is also here as well and credited.

For example, Nier:Automata is developed by Platinum Games, but the Publishing rights is held by SE. Does that mean that Square has full control of it to put it in their game? No, of course not. While SE as a whole may have copyright for FF as a whole, their still are games and certain aspects of FF that Yoshi has to personally ask for and request, while he is high up he can't just put in Kefka "because I can."

Yoshi can't put in any kind of FF thing he wants that belongs to another FF game otherwise he risks plagiarizing others work inside the company. Remember, Yoshi may be part of SE, but he still has to deal with rights to IPs and copy right still.

P.S I meant in regards to Yoshi's access in regards, not SE as a whole entity.

While we're at it, let's genderlock and racelock Dancer to female Viera only.
I'm sure tons of ffxiv players would love it.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Yes, it does, for that community or....
http://prntscr.com/mhy6f5
Yeah... that's just me using those specific words gender lock etc; I'm sure there are more threads on their forum of people screaming about the gender class lock. Bound to be more on other media websites.
http://prntscr.com/mhyb27
The same with Tera. Just search results from using those specific words in their forum, bound to be a lot more.

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I never said people wouldn't complain about it, but even your evidence shows that it's perhaps not a huge issue. For example none of the Black Desert threads are even from 2018-2019, and they're on average around 25 posts long.

And a lot of the Tera complaints are because the new classes are gender locked, not that there's genderlocked races. There is a big difference between a new race that can be every job but can only be one gender, and releasing a brand new job that only some races/genders can use.

New races are little more than cosmetic choices, whereas new classes are playable new content.

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And if males died while summoning a primal. Well, Viera got a bigger problem on their hands. Like going extinct.

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It's less them dying while summoning and more them becoming tempered, essentially slaves of which the game has established there's not really any way to free someone from that.

Even then, a bigger problem such as extinction because their males got wiped out sure would be a unique flavor to the viera lore and setting that would certainly provide an interesting hook while also giving further reasoning for male viera to not be playable. It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
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If their males are that few in number that a few adventurers going out and about would put their race in peril maybe they shouldn't be living on their own out the woods in the first place.

If people want to, they can read up Japanese copyright for a better understanding, it's far more different than for Western copyright laws

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

A few news articles ranging across the years and its very common to see the negative stigma that gender locking brings.

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Most of these articles are just opinion pieces though, and what few comments the articles have on them are mixed bags between people who don't like genderlocks and people who aren't bothered by them. Showing again it's not particularly something that bothers a lot of players.

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Black desert online and Tera could've both been more successful had they not added gender lock on their classes forcing people to play their way rather than the player's way will create attrition.

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Tera released with little gender locking (just the male only Baraka race, and arguably the elin/popori.) And it was player data and marketing information (as well as development cost/budget) that pushed them to go forward and introduce gender locked classes available to the most popularly played race/genders, and for the most part it worked for them.

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Now all of that is my side so if you can find news articles in favour of gender locking races/jobs i'll be very interested in reading them as be good to get that perspective.

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I mean in this day and age with everyone capable of being an Internet journalist/blogger there's not much merit in pulling up one off opinion pieces because people have all kinds of opinions on everything. Games journalist websites are not authorities when it comes to virtually anything.

But you can see in this very thread plenty of people that have no problem with gender locked races.
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I guess in the end we'll see come march. If we have the males, yay - I'm sure people will complain that they didn't like what they got in terms of appearance but I'd be happy with it, even if I dislike how they look. If they genderlock then I suppose we'll see how much fuss is kicked up and if it matters to the development team.

Those who tend to be fine with genderlocks aren't affected by them.
Le shrug

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

what is the smallest gamble male viera, ronso, rev or an unknown race?

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Male viera are just as much an unknown gamble as a completely new unknown race because male viera have never been officially depicted. All we know is they would have rabbit ears and that's it. They could look like just about anything and what you picture in your head as a male viera may be nothing like how they actually appear if they get revealed.

You have people here who want them to be effeminate pretty boys, you have a director who would probably make them into macho masculine things.

Honestly it's less of a risk to do something else because people have very strong opinions and expectations on what they personally want male viera to look like that no matter what version they go with people will throw a fit.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Honestly it's less of a risk to do something else because people have very strong opinions and expectations on what they personally want male viera to look like that no matter what version they go with people will throw a fit.

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I don't think so i would find it more risky to add something that would have zero expectations but would be replacing male viera over adding just male viera. As a developer would you add a male version of a race knowing there will be both people praising as well as moaning about it over a different male exclusive race you cannot gauge a reaction from.
Come March we will see what sort of developer they are i ofc am hoping the former

The thing is if there are female roes there will never be a genderlock race ever lol idk y you would even think there would be

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

The thing is if there are female roes there will never be a genderlock race ever lol idk y you would even think there would be

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Could be because the director of the game said there might be, specifically in regards to viera, after they had made female roegadyn?

:thinking:

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

And if males died while summoning a primal. Well, Viera got a bigger problem on their hands. Like going extinct.

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All male Viera wouldn't die though. The male children would be safe because they aren't taken by the adult male viera until its determined they are male, which happens at the of 13. Maybe that "can't tell their gender until 13" bit of lore was even written just to save the Viera race.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

I guess in the end we'll see come march. If we have the males, yay - I'm sure people will complain that they didn't like what they got in terms of appearance but I'd be happy with it, even if I dislike how they look. If they genderlock then I suppose we'll see how much fuss is kicked up and if it matters to the development team.

Those who tend to be fine with genderlocks aren't affected by them.
Le shrug

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Pretty much this. Nobody is going to convince each other, and nobody's going to convince SE. Those who want it to be lore-breaking will always see it as lore-breaking, those who want it to be instituted will either be happy or sad when it is or isn't. SE already has their plans, and I really don't expect anyone is going to convince them otherwise.

Maybe sufficient backlash could sway them, but it didn't re: BLU, so I don't expect it here.

Personally, the damage is done - I'll be disappointed in them if they don't release male viera, and if they do (& announce it at Tokyo FF) I still think it's telling that they either 1) are so focused on hype or 2) have so little to announce that they have to reserve an entire gender of a race (that should, by rights, just be a given, like wow, you're getting the left AND the right shoe in this pair of shoes!) for a separate announcement. Is 5.0 really so barebones that they don't have more they can share?

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

Pretty much this. Nobody is going to convince each other, and nobody's going to convince SE. Those who want it to be lore-breaking will always see it as lore-breaking, those who want it to be instituted will either be happy or sad when it is or isn't. SE already has their plans, and I really don't expect anyone is going to convince them otherwise.

Maybe sufficient backlash could sway them, but it didn't re: BLU, so I don't expect it here.

Personally, the damage is done - I'll be disappointed in them if they don't release male viera, and if they do (& announce it at Tokyo FF) I still think it's telling that they either 1) are so focused on hype or 2) have so little to announce that they have to reserve an entire gender of a race (that should, by rights, just be a given, like wow, you're getting the left AND the right shoe in this pair of shoes!) for a separate announcement. Is 5.0 really so barebones that they don't have more they can share?

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Need to keep in mind that Yoshi doesn't have sole discretion over the Viera. Revealing male Viera will be a big deal for FFXII too. I think that he probably would want the FFXII Producer on hand for the male Viera reveal.

Gender locking the race doesn't make the expansion bare bones. Seriously... nothing like trying to exaggerate the fact you appear to be disappointed the race may be gender locked. It appears we have another race coming and if that is gender locked as well that would essentially even out the release to one male and one female addition to the game.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

what is the smallest gamble male viera, ronso, rev or an unknown race?

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Ronso baby, Ronso all the way CHOO CHOOOO! haha :D

I think making a normal viera male and then a clan of Ronso (feral/lion-like) Viera would be one of the best solutions right now, and for those wanting a small bunny allow the normal viera to have a large height variance. Feral bunny big manes, hair, muscle, a few short ear elf types, longer tails to balance on tree limbs.

I even got the lore on how to make them visually more different than one would expect from a race (of course it's just for fun, obviously too late for them to "use it" lol). All the feral viera are from one specific giant tree, upon this tree that they defend as the most holiest of grounds (throw back to Ronso) there are fruits born just here. The tree uniquely produces its own sort of Ceruleum fruit (mako fruit), which the viera of the area have closely guarded and which has given them mutations over time (stronger, faster, although a bit more wild like). Also is nice because Viera have been known to be sensitive to energy like that, for example Fran and the mist (which causes her to go beast mode).

The derivation is in fact from a giant liquid Ceruleum lake below the tree, a source the tree feeds upon, allowing for it to be as different and large as it is. The garlens are unaware of this yet as such a beastly looking tribe that is so protective of "just a tree" is uninteresting to them. If they found out, it would be very interesting though.

To be honest I feel like Ronso is less likely than male lion-Viera or a new race but I swear to Thal if its Rev I'm going to enter a new level of "but y tho" bewilderment. For all the people asking for something different, usually beastly, if they went for that race for players lol. . . I sad.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Could be because the director of the game said there might be, specifically in regards to viera, after they had made female roegadyn?

:thinking:

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That and I wonder if Matsuno* secretly also finds them weird, such that Yoshida was like "these are weird right?" and he's like "omg yeah, why do you think I've shown whole villages of women and no men? female bunny girls 4lyfe". Then you have two powerful producers in agreement, would that be enough to go against what might be a likely backlash? Part of me says yes, because we've seen things that are like that before. Other part says they're just going to make it work because they know their fans.

I really have no confidence they will or wont lol.

*Haha sorry to someone I convinced to remove the T on his name in some previous posts, its just how I saw it from another person's youtube video XD (didn't say to remove it but I sort of lead the charge in wrong spelling). I imagine it's because the t in tsu may not be so easily heard for some people (at least when talking quickly) so they transcribe the sound su instead and then I copied that mistake from reading a video title lol, but I just looked up his characters and they have tsu in it.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Could be because the director of the game said there might be, specifically in regards to viera, after they had made female roegadyn?

:thinking:

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"Hey guys remember that race you really wanted for like the better part of a decade? We're going to sell you half of it and to make up for it we're making the other half a race nobody has asked for."

I'm not seeing it.

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

lets not forget you can now go back as a Aura talking to Yugiri who says she is covered because her race is often mistaken for void or dragons and get killed on site and noone in eozera have seen them before.....

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For the record, she didn't say all of that. I can't find the quote right now but I think she just said that people can be afraid of what is unfamiliar, or what they don't understand, or something to that effect.

Still creates the same issue with her giving that reasoning to another Au Ra, but she doesn't directly say that her race are mistaken for monsters.

(I think that was only brought up with Sidurgu in Ishgard, because of course that encounter was never going to end well... I have to wonder how he was ever allowed to stay in the city. )

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Gender locking the race doesn't make the expansion bare bones. Seriously... nothing like trying to exaggerate the fact you appear to be disappointed the race may be gender locked. It appears we have another race coming and if that is gender locked as well that would essentially even out the release to one male and one female addition to the game.

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I didn't say gender-locking it meant the expansion was bare-bones. I said that trying to milk two Major Announcements (TM) out of one race smells like a bare-bones expansion. And that's only if they give us male Viera.

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Originally Posted by Corue

"Hey guys remember that race you really wanted for like the better part of a decade? We're going to sell you half of it and to make up for it we're making the other half a race nobody has asked for."

I'm not seeing it.

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"Hey guys remember that job you wanted for the better part of a decade? We're going to give it to you in a very limited way and prevent it from participating in highest level content."

Blue Mage's inclusion as a limited job was far more of a negative and risky choice than a gender locked race will ever be. Especially when that race has only been depicted by its females, so anyone asking for that race for a male version was entirely doing it off an imaginary and hypothetical version.

People are still getting the Viera the majority of people asking for the race would have wanted.

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Originally Posted by Corue

"Hey guys remember that race you really wanted for like the better part of a decade? We're going to sell you half of it and to make up for it we're making the other half a race nobody has asked for."

I'm not seeing it.

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Well Yoshi-P isn't adverse to the idea of gender locking, he is techniclly giving us Viera, and plus Matsuno might also be in agreement of "No Male Viera."

I mean, sure what the fans want is one thing, but you also have to respect the creator as well if he says no.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

"Hey guys remember that job you wanted for the better part of a decade? We're going to give it to you in a very limited way and prevent it from participating in highest level content."

Blue Mage's inclusion as a limited job was far more of a negative and risky choice than a gender locked race will ever be. Especially when that race has only been depicted by its females, so anyone asking for that race for a male version was entirely doing it off an imaginary and hypothetical version.

People are still getting the Viera the majority of people asking for the race would have wanted.

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This exactly, a job matters way more than any race could. But I guess this community just wants to RP and look good than play a job that many others wanted and gets trashed because not in their interests. Seriously, people shouldn't be shocked if Viera are locked while BLU is locked.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

I didn't say gender-locking it meant the expansion was bare-bones. I said that trying to milk two Major Announcements (TM) out of one race smells like a bare-bones expansion. And that's only if they give us male Viera.

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Male Viera in no way equate to an expansion being bare bones and the announcements have been just fine. Personally I think the race is gender locked and that they will be announcing another race in Toyko for which they are not prepared to announce until then. Just my take on it. If males were part of the release I truly think we'd have seen them already.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

This exactly, a job matters way more than any race could. But I guess this community just wants to RP and look good than play a job that many others wanted and gets trashed because not in their interests. Seriously, people shouldn't be shocked if Viera are locked while BLU is locked.

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To help put into perspective that jobs are far more important, not every expansion has added a new race, and per their comments at the last fanfests, there may be no more future races added to the game. Yet they continuously add multiple new jobs every expansion, because those are actually more important pieces of content that they can't easily choose to not do.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Blue Mage's inclusion as a limited job was far more of a negative and risky choice than a gender locked race will ever be.

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Absolute toss. Comparing a job that's radically different to the current flow of gameplay to the gender of a race is nonsense.

BLU is BLU because people wanted a direct translation of it from XI. a job that: had to learn skills from monsters rather than from quests or leveling, could heal itself, could tank and could inflict effects like Doom. Something that would have completely broken the flow of gameplay and wouldn't fit within the "holy trinity" formula of an MMO. While questionable, a limited job was one of the ways they could have implemented it how people wanted without infringing on its identify of being a powerful spellcaster that learned abilities from monsters.

I fail to see how this is riskier than implementing a race but not only shafting about half the people who are interested in but giving them something completely unrelated to the race they wanted. There is not a single good reason as to why male Viera should be unplayable.
"But lore!" This isn't the Ivalice from the Ivalice Alliance series. This its own world with its own timeline that differs from the other one. Even the Viera look different. Why would implementing males in an unrelated world suddenly break the lore of a different series?
If we wanted to be lore friendly you wouldn't be able to do any quests that involve Viera because they refuse to speak to you for being an outsider.

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Originally Posted by Corue

Absolute toss. Comparing a job that's radically different to the current flow of gameplay to the gender of a race is nonsense.

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It really isnt. It's a design decision that came with more risks than gender locking a race ever could.

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BLU is BLU because people wanted a direct translation of it from XI.

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I could easily make the exact same statement to justify only getting female viera. Considering female viera is the only thing that's ever been shown in any final fantasy game. So by extension a "direct translation" from another game means that only female viera would be around.

Since blue mage came out, we've seen more than enough people who would have preferred the job sacrificed a ton of its identity to be played as a normal job. The dev team decided to keep it true to it's roots, just as they could decide to keep viera true to it's past representations and make males nowhere to be seen.

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I fail to see how this is riskier than implementing a race but not only shafting about half the people who are interested in but giving them something completely unrelated to the race they wanted.

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Because a job is actual gameplay, while a race is purely cosmetic. One of those has a far greater impact on the game than the other (and it isn't the race). If races are so important, why was there no huge drop in subs when stormblood released with no new race? Were there huge movements to demand a new playable race come?

Once again, since male viera have never been depicted, there's no saying that SE's version of them would be "what the players wanted." You already see plenty of complaints with the female viera we are getting for exactly that reason.

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There is not a single good reason as to why male Viera should be unplayable.

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There are plenty. You just choose to not accept any of them as valid.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

For the record, she didn't say all of that. I can't find the quote right now but I think she just said that people can be afraid of what is unfamiliar, or what they don't understand, or something to that effect.

Still creates the same issue with her giving that reasoning to another Au Ra, but she doesn't directly say that her race are mistaken for monsters.

(I think that was only brought up with Sidurgu in Ishgard, because of course that encounter was never going to end well... I have to wonder how he was ever allowed to stay in the city. )

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sorry i forgot some of that is in the encyclopedia and I'm mixing other interactions...but still serves the same point. I don't think people can use lore and continuity as a reason for there being no male bun buns XD. As I said in an earlier post there a really easy reason that yoshi p can use to have playable male viera. There is a war/threat of war. I'm pretty sure the viera would not go 'nah lets just stay in our forest until the tropes are at our door.' And as lore states the males are the trained protectors. It could easily be written that they join forces with the alliance. With a relationship established between fran and the WOL/WOD its not hard to write in that the veira offer to help support the alliance. Sending the strongest warriors would include the Males.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

This exactly, a job matters way more than any race could. But I guess this community just wants to RP and look good than play a job that many others wanted and gets trashed because not in their interests. Seriously, people shouldn't be shocked if Viera are locked while BLU is locked.

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I love blue and i wish it wasnt locked....


However race does matter more than class/job in a rpg which ff is a rpg aka roleplaying game so truthfully the race does matter more than the job plus you can play all jobs so blue being locked isn't a big deal. But in order to play all races you got to spend 100s of real money lol

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Originally Posted by Corue

snip.

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Yes, a job thats been designated a Caster DPS just like BLM, SMN, RDM, has most of its OP kit unusable in the actual fights that matters (trials and up), fails as a healer (runs out of MP so fast), fails as a tank (wtf is 5k HP gonna save you with) and it had a barebones rotation that fits in with average DPS for a level 50, where you mostly spam 1 spell over and over. Wow, really good reason for limited. The only role its good at is DPS, which it has caster gear for. Really Holy trinity breaking there.

I never asked for XIs BLU, but rather for a XIV incarnation of BLU. They have a good model set up right now that is totally possible to stay true, balanced and fun. Have you even played BLU, completed it fully, listened to complaints, or are you one of those "you deserve your job locked lol, I got my Male Viera. What, Male Viera is locked, how dare you SE."

And there is very good reasons why it should remain locked. It has its own lore from previous installments, from other parts of the house, needs the official creators backing, wanting to stay true otherwise it may not end up as Viera.

You're suggesting to completely disregard previous installments on foreign material to be implemented in the game.

That's hypocrisy right there, can't see why BLU should be unlocked yet demands Male Viera to be unlocked despite there's far stronger evidence why Male Viera should stay locked.

Copyright still applies interhouse. They can't have male viera or even Viera without jumping through tons of hoops first. Please read up.

I don't understand why after 80 pages people can't accept that we just don't know yet. People will be disappointed on the internet no matter what you do, just have to wait and see what direction they went. I know what I personally think will happen, but until there is official word on the subject - it's all just guesswork. Anyone saying they 100% know it will be one way or another - they don't. None of us in this thread do. Solid case made for both sides; just have to wait the month and change to see where the chips land.

If Viera is gender locked than I will be disappointed and it will probably leave me with a sour taste for the entire expansion. Especially when I will probably see hundered of Viera running around doing ERP advertisements which we all know is 110% what the race will be used for. But if that is what SE decides then that is what it is and I will just have to live with it. I am hoping against all reason that maybe they will use the male Viera to also showcase the new job they haven't announced yet. It makes a little reason to hold back on a male Viera reveal if they were also going to showcase an unannounced job with it.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

snip

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Far more work goes into the initial creation a new race than a new job you have get emotes/hair/facial features/environmental interaction/mounts/minions/food eating/every single currently existing piece of gear altered(- belts)/every single animation of all current and future jobs/DoL and DoH animations sorted/Any existing npc that may comment on your race or interact with your height altered/cutscenes adjusted/make sure enemies interact properly to the model.
A new job has to go through checks of ability interactions with itself, other jobs and enemies/duty finder & party finder interactions/HoH & PotD interaction/PvP interaction/Euerka interaction/solo instance interactions.

One has a lot more work needed to add it into the game than the other and the one that requires more is the cosmetic one which is why they don't add one every expansion because having to adjust everything from 1.0 items/gear to current expansion is way more work than just 2.0 battle content to current expansion battle content.

More work for less of a meaningful impact as an addition to the game. Not really sure the point you're trying to make? Of course a new race requires more art asset development especially at a point when a lot of art assets are needed (new zones, new dungeons, new armor and weapons, new primals, new enemies etc.)

It doesn't change the fact that compared to new jobs, new races are far less important additions to the game. It's why they're saying they're likely done adding new races, while introducing the limited job system to add additional jobs to the game.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

More work for less of a meaningful impact as an addition to the game.

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For you obviously. For others new races are very important. I know for me I was pretty disappointed SB didn't have one. I'm looking forward to ShB with great anticipation. I'm so happy we're getting one and maybe two new races.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Because a job is actual gameplay, while a race is purely cosmetic. One of those has a far greater impact on the game than the other (and it isn't the race). If races are so important, why was there no huge drop in subs when stormblood released with no new race? Were there huge movements to demand a new playable race come?

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At the time there were a lot of requests if they'd add a new race or add more CC features though. I get your point about race and jobs. While I could imagine that people would be far more effected if SE would tell us 1/no job next expansion, people demand for variety. Variety because the current CC is very bland. You cant really customize your own character, build his own identity while someone else can just look like you (same face, same hair, same everything).
A new race has the potential to give short,refreshing feeling to the CCreator, even if most of the players will run as bun girls the first week - until they change back to their older race.
In any case, I dont really care if bun boys are bun boys. I just hope they wont look like Au Ra, thats my own preference. Ofcourse it would be nice to see the race fit to each other, but Viera are not a new race. I could imagine that the dev team is bound to Matsuno. If he envisions them as lionesque counterpart, we will have to accept it either way.
But the whole "genderlocked" thing does not sound believeable to me. After all the petitions and support the community has gathered to get Viera/Bunny outfit/etc... We will have to wait and see.

And you also have to accept peoples opinions rather shatter them down every time. I get your points, you are being on point with certain things. But statements that can be placed one or the other side, are not useful. This also applies to your arguments.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

More work for less of a meaningful impact as an addition to the game. Not really sure the point you're trying to make? Of course a new race requires more art asset development especially at a point when a lot of art assets are needed (new zones, new dungeons, new armor and weapons, new primals, new enemies etc.)

It doesn't change the fact that compared to new jobs, new races are far less important additions to the game. It's why they're saying they're likely done adding new races, while introducing the limited job system to add additional jobs to the game.

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New jobs offer new playstyles so ofc they offer a more of an impact than a cosmetic one which is why its more baffling to lock it what is the point in locking male viera? Blu just needs a few changes and its good to go in duty finder(at least in my eyes) its lock is currently arbitrary so why do you seem so gungho about accepting gender locked viera?

We can keep doing a back and forth till we are both blue in the face we will not see eye to eye lets just wait and see for Tokyo fan fest i will remain hopeful till then

Tbh I'd rather have BLU not limited than male viera.
Both would be the cherry on my cake.

When asked about male Viera, Yoshida said we'd get info about them at the Tokyo Fanfest. If the answer were "no, we're not getting them" it wouldn't make any sense to have a special reveal about that, let alone a teaser about an upcoming reveal. The only way his comment makes sense is if we're getting both genders, but the reveal videos are being released separately.

That probably indicates the males weren't ready yet when they were preparing the first reveal, and perhaps could suggest that the males and females are quite different from each other. But that we're getting both in some fashion has essentially been confirmed. The only thing we still don't know is what the males look like.

(Personally, I'm hoping for something close to the old concept art that shows them quite similar in build to the females, just slightly shorter. Ronso-like would be cool, too. If they end up with the little cute version, well, I guess there's other people who might like that, even if I'm not one of them.)