Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micronowski

Personally I hope they put in any class / job combination. BLM/THF may not have been optimal for partying but was great for farming. As was BLM/RNG if you needed widescan, BLM/WAR if you're playing with a friend and need provoke, War/BLM if you needed warp (or if you wanted to play a poor mans DRK) etc.

Not every job combination was amazing but a lot of them had uses. Hopefully they give each job something unique so even if its not a great combination, you still have a reason to throw it on every once in a while.

---

Thank you ^_^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuru

Does the fact that Matsui said that "Jobs are not Advanced Classes" mean anything then?

And besides, even if you are a Monk, you are still using a Hand-to-hand weapon which also means you're a Pugilist. lol So that already explains that Jobs are not replacements.

---

i still believe that when they said "not advanced classes" they meant not in the same sense that FFXI did them
in 11 ALL unlockable jobs were advanced jobs. And you started them again from rank 1.

I think saying that they arent advanced classes is basicaly saying they arent new classes you have to level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

i still believe that when they said "not advanced classes" they meant not in the same sense that FFXI did them
in 11 ALL unlockable jobs were advanced jobs. And you started them again from rank 1.

I think saying that they arent advanced classes is basicaly saying they arent new classes you have to level.

---

I see what you are saying, and I understand that they are just specialization for party roles.

However, I'm sure people would like to be able to use their favorite weapon and be able to choose between more than one role. Which is what my branching post was about.

Needless to say, that a White Monk wont nearly be as effective as a White Mage, but it would be as diverse enough to be able to perform the Healer Role a bit differently, and on some situations, White Monks would probably out-perform White Mages, depending on the type of situation.

Pretty much how Paradigms were in FFXIII. They each had their own weapon and list of Paradigms that they were efficient enough to play as.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuru

I see what you are saying, and I understand that they are just specialization for party roles.

However, I'm sure people would like to be able to use their favorite weapon and be able to choose between more than one role. Which is what my branching post was about.

Needless to say, that a White Monk wont nearly be as effective as a White Mage, but it would be as diverse enough to be able to perform the Healer Role a bit differently, and on some situations, White Monks would probably out-perform White Mages, depending on the type of situation.

Pretty much how Paradigms were in FFXIII. They each had their own weapon and list of Paradigms that they were efficient enough to play as.

---

thats why i think each class will have multiple jobs it can eventualy unlock
so thats definately not out of the picture

and some will have cross class jobs(probly have to unlock it on EACH class seperately too)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuru

Does the fact that Matsui said that "Jobs are not Advanced Classes" mean anything then?

And besides, even if you are a Monk, you are still using a Hand-to-hand weapon which also means you're a Pugilist. lol So that already explains that Jobs are not replacements.

---

Drawing conclusions from semantics on a translated message is not a very reliable analysis. Hence, we don't have enough information to make that conclusion.

Back to Cairdeas's point that becoming a monk doesn't automatically make you not a pugilist:
If the job replaces the class, then it's likely jobs can use more than one weapon type. If jobs are added to the class, then it's unlikely jobs can use more than one weapon type. Cairdeas should hope he's wrong about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

thats why i think each class will have multiple jobs it can eventualy unlock
so thats definately not out of the picture

and some will have cross class jobs(probly have to unlock it on EACH class seperately too)

---

So in other words.. White Mage Unlocked + Monk Unlocked = White Monk Quest Available.

Each job should actually have lore that explains why they are not exactly guilds, but more like they are forms of battle that were taught and used by the Grand Companies during times of war. Jobs are advanced war techniques that allow one to focus and become more efficient in large groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lerris

Drawing conclusions from semantics on a translated message is not a very reliable analysis. Hence, we don't have enough information to make that conclusion.

Back to Cairdeas's point that becoming a monk doesn't automatically make you not a pugilist:
If the job replaces the class, then it's likely jobs can use more than one weapon type. If jobs are added to the class, then it's unlikely jobs can use more than one weapon type. Cairdeas should hope he's wrong about that.

---

The confusing thing is this: You are putting Jobs first before you are considering the Class/Weapon you are using.

This is a simple way to understand that Jobs will not replace Class.

You are using a hand-to-hand weapon. You are a Pugilist.

Since you are a Pugilist, you can select the Role as a Monk.

You are now a Pugilist, performing as a Monk.

Being a Monk isn't more important than the weapon you use. In fact, its the weapon you use that is important to your role as a Monk.

You equip a Battle Staff. You are a Stavesman.

You want to perform the Role as a Monk.

You are now a Stavesman, performing as a Monk.

That is pretty much how it would work if multiple classes were able to perform as Monk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuru

So in other words.. White Mage Unlocked + Monk Unlocked = White Monk Quest Available.

Each job should actually have lore that explains why they are not exactly guilds, but more like they are forms of battle that were taught and used by the Grand Companies during times of war. Jobs are advanced war techniques that allow one to focus and become more efficient in large groups.

---

no i meant where Con may have a white mage unlock
thm may have a seperate white mage unlock
monk may have its own support/healing unlock(though i dont see why it would personaly)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

no i meant where Con may have a white mage unlock
thm may have a seperate white mage unlock
monk may have its own support/healing unlock(though i dont see why it would personaly)

---

Because one of the core tenantes of most of the past monks has been healing the party using their spiritual powers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

no i meant where Con may have a white mage unlock
thm may have a seperate white mage unlock
monk may have its own support/healing unlock(though i dont see why it would personaly)

---

Ah i see. Or perhaps when you quest for certain abilities for your Job, you can specialize it, and the "White Monk" won't actually be the job, but can have separate Artifact armors that will significantly enhance certain Abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuru

Ah i see. Or perhaps when you quest for certain abilities for your Job, you can specialize it, and the "White Monk" won't actually be the job, but can have separate Artifact armors that will significantly enhance certain Abilities.

---

well specialization is what jobs are all about

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Because one of the core tenantes of most of the past monks has been healing the party using their spiritual powers.

---

? In I and V at least they had the highest damage (and hit twice per turn) and could heal themselves. They also had the "Kick" ability which dealt less damage, but to all enemies.

Don't remember MONKS healing anyone else in the party, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

? In I and V at least they had the highest damage (and hit twice per turn) and could heal themselves. They also had the "Kick" ability which dealt less damage, but to all enemies.

Don't remember MONKS healing anyone else in the party, though.

---

in 11 they had a healing ability, a single, healing ability

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

well specialization is what jobs are all about

---

Exactly, and there are so many ways to specialize in different areas with the same equipped weapon. Though, I do believe that abilities from White Monk or Black Belt should be locked out because that would be like building Armory System Tier 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuru

Exactly, and there are so many ways to specialize in different areas with the same equipped weapon. Though, I do believe that abilities from White Monk or Black Belt should be locked out because that would be like building Armory System Tier 2.

---

jobs will have exclusive abilities, this we know for a fact
we also know being on a job will lock out certain abilities too

You know... I might be happy if each Class gets its own version of each role as a unique job.

IE Each Weapon class gets a Tank, Healer/Buffer, DD, Debuff/Subvert,
Gladiator gets Paladin, Dancer, Soldier, Redmage, Thief
Pugilist gets Monk, White Monk, Berserker, Black Belt
Archer gets Sniper, Corsair, Ranger, Engineer
Marauder gets Warrior, Cleric, Viking, Dark Knight
Lancer Gets Dragoon, Holy Dragoon, Samurai, Blue Mage
etc.

But even then you have jobs that are using weapons that are not normal for them except in one instance in past FF's and I'd still be upset that I can't use my favorite weapon with my favorite job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

jobs will have exclusive abilities, this we know for a fact
we also know being on a job will lock out certain abilities too

---

Yeah but i'm speaking more along the lines of Cross-Job abilities, even if the Job is tied to the same Weapon Class.

I'm not willing to see another Armory System pop up. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuru

Yeah but i'm speaking more along the lines of Cross-Job abilities, even if the Job is tied to the same Weapon Class.

I'm not willing to see another Armory System pop up. lol

---

somehow i dont think they will allow cross job abilities
everything will probly be exclusive that you unlock

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

somehow i dont think they will allow cross job abilities
everything will probly be exclusive that you unlock

---

Everything a Job gives you will only work on that job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Everything a Job gives you will only work on that job.

---

thanks for repeating exactly what i just said

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

thanks for repeating exactly what i just said

---

I put it in simpler terms. >.> sorry.

Those of you who want the option to use all jobs on all classes are not looking at this realistically, the option u guys are asking for might be nice to have and all but it won`t be in SE`s best interest to create such a system. Think about it for a sec, even with only 1 job per class, there is a lot of balancing that needs to be done but if they made jobs free for all, they would need to balance all jobs for all possible combination and this would apply every time they want to add new sets of jobs and i don't think this will happen. It`s to much work for a team to commit to when they are trying so hard to fix a broken game and such a system will only create more balancing issues.

Also based on what we know now, the chance classes will be locked is high, on top of the above reasons, they mentioned that they are working on Job Specific armor. If classes are unlocked that would mean Archers and Conj can run around in Paladin and Dark Knight gear just because they have the job equipped and i really doubt that's gonna happen. The way i see it, Jobs will be locked to specific classes and based on the Dengeki interview, they are only adding 1 job for each class to start. Maybe in the future we might see new jobs but they too will probably be specific to a class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shura

Those of you who want the option to use all jobs on all classes are not looking at this realistically, the option u guys are asking for might be nice to have and all but it won`t be in SE`s best interest to create such a system. Think about it for a sec, even with only 1 job per class, there is a lot of balancing that needs to be done but if they made jobs free for all, they would need to balance all jobs for all possible combination and this would apply every time they want to add new sets of jobs and i don't think this will happen. It`s to much work for a team to commit to when they are trying so hard to fix a broken game and such a system will only create more balancing issues.

Also based on what we know now, the chance classes will be locked is high, on top of the above reasons, they mentioned that they are working on Job Specific armor. If classes are unlocked that would mean Archers and Conj can run around in Paladin and Dark Knight gear just because they have the job equipped and i really doubt that's gonna happen. The way i see it, Jobs will be locked to specific classes and based on the Dengeki interview, they are only adding 1 job for each class to start. Maybe in the future we might see new jobs but they too will probably be specific to a class.

---

Look at FFXI. How much balancing do you think they had to do for the subjob system there? All they had to do was make sure any skill they didn't want people using as a subjob was just not usable as a subjob or it was cut in half in usability. It really isn't hard to do such a thing once they have the idea down of the best way to do it in broad spectrum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

You know... I might be happy if each Class gets its own version of each role as a unique job.

IE Each Weapon class gets a Tank, Healer/Buffer, DD, Debuff/Subvert,
Gladiator gets Paladin, Dancer, Soldier, Redmage, Thief
Pugilist gets Monk, White Monk, Berserker, Black Belt
Archer gets Sniper, Corsair, Ranger, Engineer
Marauder gets Warrior, Cleric, Viking, Dark Knight
Lancer Gets Dragoon, Holy Dragoon, Samurai, Blue Mage
etc.

But even then you have jobs that are using weapons that are not normal for them except in one instance in past FF's and I'd still be upset that I can't use my favorite weapon with my favorite job.

---

Fair enough, but I hope no one expects this for patch 1.18.

Most likely there will be one job for every base class (tied to the weapon), with further jobs (and classes) becoming available later with future updates and expansions. At this point they may want to add complexity to the system, like having more than one base class requirements to unlock a job, or untying the job to its base class' weapon. Consequentially, needing several base classes to unlock a job would give said job an access to several weapons.

In this perspective this thread is relevant and useful (and fun to read) but I hope no one gets upset when they release the first version of the job system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Look at FFXI. How much balancing do you think they had to do for the subjob system there? All they had to do was make sure any skill they didn't want people using as a subjob was just not usable as a subjob or it was cut in half in usability. It really isn't hard to do such a thing once they have the idea down of the best way to do it in broad spectrum.

---

I think the posts you quoted in the OP sums it best

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by northernsky

I think the posts you quoted in the OP sums it best

---

Yes pretty much

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by northernsky

Fair enough, but I hope no one expects this for patch 1.18.

Most likely there will be one job for every base class (tied to the weapon), with further jobs (and classes) becoming available later with future updates and expansions. At this point they may want to add complexity to the system, like having more than one base class requirements to unlock a job, or untying the job to its base class' weapon. Consequentially, needing several base classes to unlock a job would give said job an access to several weapons.

In this perspective this thread is relevant and useful (and fun to read) but I hope no one gets upset when they release the first version of the job system.

---

I wouldn't even expect the Job system to be in patch 1.18.

With how the Developer Letter was worded out, if the Job system gets implemented at all during the summer, I imagine it'll be in the tail end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

I wouldn't even expect the Job system to be in patch 1.18.

With how the Developer Letter was worded out, if the Job system gets implemented at all during the summer, I imagine it'll be in the tail end.

---

end of summer will bring us 1.19 and possible 1.20 depending on what they define as end of summer
i agree, not everything in that letter will be in 1.18 but as usual tons of people will assume so cuz they lack proper reasoning as to the meanings of things

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

end of summer will bring us 1.19 and possible 1.20 depending on what they define as end of summer
i agree, not everything in that letter will be in 1.18 but as usual tons of people will assume so cuz they lack proper reasoning as to the meanings of things

---

It would be safe to assume most of whats in the first collum is for 1.18, whats in the second is for 1.19 and whats in the third is for 1.20

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

It would be safe to assume most of whats in the first collum is for 1.18, whats in the second is for 1.19 and whats in the third is for 1.20

---

for the most part yeah, that could be the case

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

It would be safe to assume most of whats in the first collum is for 1.18, whats in the second is for 1.19 and whats in the third is for 1.20

---

First column was the title, then there was "current" and "future" tasks, so not exactly, but I see your point. In any case based on your logic, implementing the quests associated to the jobs is included in "future tasks", so probably we won't see jobs until a while, maybe even not during the summer.

Then I guess this gives them a lot of time to implement a well thought and quite complex job system, even tho I still think that they will start with a minimalist system.

Which is why these types of discussion are still important. The Development Team is still working on the Jobs System.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorel

Which is why these types of discussion are still important. The Development Team is still working on the Jobs System.

---

Those Quests in the 3rd Collum could be the Quests for extra skills they talked about.

SE isn't going to let you max out the job as soon as they release it they'll release chunks of new content for each job as time goes on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Those Quests in the 3rd Collum could be the Quests for extra skills they talked about.

SE isn't going to let you max out the job as soon as they release it they'll release chunks of new content for each job as time goes on.

---

Yup I was looking for a 'implement job system' notice in the letter and did not see it so I assumed it would be for later, but you never know with the vague wording in those letters.

Dungeons are for jobs seeing how dungeon would be release for 1.18 i see job system and battle system added. Patch.18B to fix any issue 1.19 other big patch added more stuff then 1.20 could be anything.

I thought that somewhere they mentioned the first part of the job system is going to come with the dungeons and battle reform :L

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I thought that somewhere they mentioned the first part of the job system is going to come with the dungeons and battle reform :L

---

no, the first part of the major battle reform will come with dungeons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Look at FFXI. How much balancing do you think they had to do for the subjob system there? All they had to do was make sure any skill they didn't want people using as a subjob was just not usable as a subjob or it was cut in half in usability. It really isn't hard to do such a thing once they have the idea down of the best way to do it in broad spectrum.

---

This is sadly one of the oldest excuses people have been using to justify their arguments; "FFXI did it". Going by your logic, FFXI also had chocobos, a loot system where you can roll, better party features, better linkshell options, search features, better zones, better quests/missions, better story, limited xp solution (PTs only after Lv10) and so on. While we all want all of these features in FFXIV, it does not exist atm, hopefully it will by the end of summer.

The Job System in FFXIV is NOT the Job system from FFXI, so people should stop expecting it to be the same. FFXI was developed with the concept of Job/SJ in mind, it is not the same as the situation with FFXIV. Your argument may work if SJ was added within 3 months in order to fix a broken battle system in FFXI but that is not the case, the entire game was developed with SJ as a feature so no one really knows how long it took them to balance everything. That being said, some SJ were simply useless in FFXI, such as WHM/THM or THM/PLD and its because of this that you mostly only used some SJ with Jobs, such as DRK would be either THF/NIN/WAR/SAM, PLD was either NIN/WAR, WHM was RDM/BLM/SMN and so on, most people knew some SJ were simply useless.

Since the change in dev team and the poll regarding battle changes, it has not been that long and i really doubt they had enough time to design the job system, AND balance all the jobs to work with all the classes. Job systems in FFXI simply gave u the skills of whatever job u choose as your SJ up to lv 37, with a little buff on stats and hp/mp/ I'd personally rather have a Job designed exclusively for each class with effective skills for that class rather then the dumb down version of the job that works with all the classes.

Also i saw your earlier post about having a Job thats for healing one for tanking and so on, but instead of having the same job play those rolls on all the classes, id rather have exclusive new jobs for each class to play those rolls. They did say we should consider jobs as play styles so maybe that is what they are doing, these first set work as an job to simply enhance the class, while the jobs that get added later might have specific features such as enhance offense or enhance defense and so on. But again, i would rather have them design exclusive jobs for each class that offer these roles.

Sorry for the long post

Quote:

---

such as WHM/THM

---

That's funny because I distinctly remember myself and a lot of other WHM's subbing THF for TH and flee. Not every job combination was useful but a lot of them served a purpose of some kind.

Your right, i apologize maybe i should of been more specific. We all had blm sub for warp or used whm to port and thf for flee. I was referring to the SJ one would use for battle purpose or for PT, and it simply was not practical for a blm/mnk or a whm/drg or a pld/pup to show up at Nidhogg camp or even in XP PT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shura

Your right, i apologize maybe i should of been more specific. We all had blm sub for warp or used whm to port and thf for flee. I was referring to the SJ one would use for battle purpose or for PT, and it simply was not practical for a blm/mnk or a whm/drg or a pld/pup to show up at Nidhogg camp or even in XP PT.

---

if its not practical people wont do it.