Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If we're talking about more stat variation, sure, it's all the same to me. I'll math out what's best for me and ignore everything else.

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Ha, don't kid yourself.
If you don't raid, you're limited to one single piece of i240 gear in existence.
You'll take it and you'll like it; you have no option to "ignore everything else".

Wouldn't it be fun to have 4 different pieces of gear per ilvl, obtained from various accessible means, each patch?
No, of course not, nobody wants horizontal progression.

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Originally Posted by Dextro

Ha, don't kid yourself.
If you don't raid, you're limited to one single piece of i240 gear in existence.
You'll take it and you'll like it; you have no option to "ignore everything else".

Wouldn't it be fun to have 4 different pieces of gear per ilvl, obtained from various accessible means, each patch?
No, of course not, nobody wants horizontal progression.

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I240 isn't the end all be all. Crafted, and WC are still better in some cases.

Instead of illusory side progression with useless stats on gear like flash +1 . how about instead we think of a new system using horizontal progression but not tied to gear? As long as its tied to gear and ilvl rises and caps go up it'll never really be horizontal it'll just be vertical with new flavor.

Lets try and reinvent the wheel with a feasible solution instead of going around in a circle over horizontal gear we'll never get.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I240 isn't the end all be all. Crafted, and WC are still better in some cases.

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In very few cases, sure; I already know that.
Doesn't take away from the fact that item level is still king in this game called vertical progression.
But rather than do away with it completely, which is a bit extreme, why would anyone be averse to simply adding in more options, and more battle-related content to obtain these options?

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Originally Posted by zosia

Even with that point in mind, GC vendor gear already exposes leveling players to set bonuses and item effects.

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2.0 had elemental resistence too, but like WoW they went the simplification route. And what is confusing to players is not "what a set bonus is?" but getting the wrong one at end game and not being able to do end game anymore.

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Originally Posted by zosia

There sould be less focus on "what about the new players" and more emphasis on what currently subbed players want.

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I'm currently subbed. I do not want this. I'm having enough problems figuring out what stat I should go for on my 240 AST relic.

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Originally Posted by zosia

This game has over 5 million accounts but can't keep a fifth of that as active subscriptions.

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WoW had over 100 million accounts in its lifetime, most it ever kept was 1/10th of that as active. Your point?

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Originally Posted by zosia

Added horizontal progression can give players more to work towards. It can give rewards more staying power when the items attributes and worth are not just defined by ilvl. Adding depth to the game engages players more on a cognitive level and can help with player retention.

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It either forces you to work for 100 different gear sets for different encounters, making the treadmill worse, or one build emerges once again making anything extra 100% useless.

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Originally Posted by zosia

"maximize your preferred secondary and hit acc cap, donezo!"

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except all of the DPS that on top of worrying about iLvl also have to jump around the accuracy cap and make sure that they're not overcapping a different stat. BLMs literally could not upgrade to iLvl 230, because pentamelded 220 was the only viable option outside of raid 240. Knowing that, you want even more stats to enter this mess?

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Originally Posted by mirta000

I'm currently subbed. I do not want this. I'm having enough problems figuring out what stat I should go for on my 240 AST relic.

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Something to consider is if it really matters which you choose. All current content is doable with an i230-235 wep, so the main stat and WD alone from an i240 relic is enough. It boggles my mind that people still care so much about literally meaningless secondaries in 2016 that aren't pushing world first. How hard does everyone imagine this game is, even in the Savage tier? Because it's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by mirta000

except all of the DPS that on top of worrying about iLvl also have to jump around the accuracy cap and make sure that they're not overcapping a different stat. BLMs literally could not upgrade to iLvl 230, because pentamelded 220 was the only viable option outside of raid 240. Knowing that, you want even more stats to enter this mess?

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Yes.

Outside of Adloquium, Bloodletter, and arguably SSPD for BLM, the interactions with our secondary stats are dull and unimaginative.
I believe that many players would like to see innovative ways to expand upon the current system that's in place.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Instead of illusory side progression with useless stats on gear like flash +1 . how about instead we think of a new system using horizontal progression but not tied to gear? As long as its tied to gear and ilvl rises and caps go up it'll never really be horizontal it'll just be vertical with new flavor.

Lets try and reinvent the wheel with a feasible solution instead of going around in a circle over horizontal gear we'll never get.

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We could try to reinvent the wheel, but the wheel is an established system that is quite fun and is used in the most successful MMO on the market. Most MMO's which try to reinvent the wheel with some alternate way of adding horizontal progression fall flat on their faces.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Something to consider is if it really matters which you choose. All current content is doable with an i230-235 wep, so the main stat and WD alone from an i240 relic is enough. It boggles my mind that people still care so much about literally meaningless secondaries in 2016 that aren't pushing world first. How hard does everyone imagine this game is, even in the Savage tier? Because it's not that hard.

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you won't be able to respec it for 3.4 and 3.5. Meaning what you choose now is the kind of stats that you'll be rocking. Should I have my one and only 120 accuracy to miss less? Should I go for critical? Should I go for piety?All of these have very different side effects and very different playstyles that I need to consider.
and it's great that Savage for you is easy. I commend you for that. However in my experience both of my statics fell on the 2nd turn of Gordias and Middas. First static hit a wall with A3, second static ripped itself apart at balls. Stats help for world firsts, sure, but stats also have a great effect on casual groups.

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Originally Posted by mirta000

you won't be able to respec it for 3.4 and 3.5. Meaning what you choose now is the kind of stats that you'll be rocking. Should I have my one and only 120 accuracy to miss less? Should I go for critical? Should I go for piety?All of these have very different side effects and very different playstyles that I need to consider.

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The only one of those that would actually affect you is ACC. So I'd say ACC and whatever you want.

My group was a casual group. Secondary stats help, sure, but they aren't as important as you think. Main stat is going to be 99% of your problems if you hit a DPS wall, on top of player skill/execution/etc. Having a bit more Determination or Crit or whatever isn't realistically going to push you past that wall unless you are literally a pinky toe away (which is never the case with a casual group). They do not help as much as you envision they do, they're just big numbers so it's like "with this many numbers attached, surely they contribute a lot to my DPS/HPS/Survival!" but no, not really.

Also, this problem you're having only exists on healers because healers are the only ones who have an actual "choice". Piety affects your MP (which is important to a healer), SpS affects the speed of your casts (which is important in tight healing situations), ACC affects any point where you decide to cast a spell (which is important for speeding up things or progressing in Savage). Everyone else goes ACC to cap > Crit > The rest. Even if we just concede that healers have all this choice and flavor of stats, the rest of us don't, and we'd like some.