Can we talk about Cure III?

It's very useful for the Overcure trait. I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but when you have Overcure, it's a guaranteed critical hit. This makes Cure III arguably more reliable than Cure II if you need to heal a tank fast. That being said, in more organised parties, you can have party members deliberately run towards someone, in which the WHM will use Cure III for a more potent aoe heal than Medica/Medica II can be. This, along with the faster cast rate grants the skill some merits.

I believe that it's working as intended.

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Originally Posted by soshifood

It's very useful for the Overcure trait. I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but when you have Overcure, it's a guaranteed critical hit. This makes Cure III arguably more reliable than Cure II if you need to heal a tank fast. That being said, in more organised parties, you can have party members deliberately run towards someone, in which the WHM will use Cure III for a more potent aoe heal than Medica/Medica II can be. This, along with the faster cast rate grants the skill some merits.

I believe that it's working as intended.

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Regardless if the spell is working as intended the game isn't. There have been posts under accepted bug etcetc where it has been made clear that there are server client issues. That basically means unless people are stacked on top of each other and aren't moving the spell isn't reliable. Why take the chance that a dps running into the group misses the heal when medica/medica 2 will never miss at that range.

And for 500 mana, i'm not sure the crit heal is even worth it on a tank. For "oh sh*t" moments we have benediction, long cd but the tank shouldn't be dropping that low anyway...not to mention the actual proc has to be up at just that right moment. Again, its just not reliable.

but cure 3 is 2.5 second and 500 so its not a good oh crap heal unless you swiftcast it. Casting 2 cure2s preemmtively is a better idea for tank healing. Tank healing is the only thing that causes mana issues for whm so using cure3 is not the best idea . I find if tank ever dies it would be due to me not spamming moar. Which is limited by my mana. It is never due to my potency not being enough.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

for 500 mana, i'm not sure the crit heal is even worth it on a tank. For "oh sh*t" moments we have benediction, long cd but the tank shouldn't be dropping that low anyway...not to mention the actual proc has to be up at just that right moment. Again, its just not reliable.

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Wow, being downright nitpicky there. Benediction is a 300 sec cooldown (insanely long), and plenty of things can bring a tank's hp low. Titan's Mountain Buster and the vulnerability debuffs from BC bosses are a few things to name. Cure III saves DPSes without wasting too much timethanks to the ensured crit. It means I can continue spamming Cure II to keep a tank alive while having the one injured melee DPS back to full health. It's a nifty skill, particularly in Titan HM and Bahamut's Coil and I say this from experience. Or is this the part where you tell me that I'm horrible WHM? Because when you say, "tank shouldn't be dropping that low anyway", that's what I assume you're saying.

I figured I was using Cure III wrong, or wasn't seeing where it was useful so I started trying to use it in certain fights. In Garuda HM the Tank and 2 melee DPS (Monk and Dragoon) were all practically holding hands for bit so I cast Cure III. It only hit the Tank. What kind of F@#$ed up SH$T is that??

I haven't used it since, and won't until the radius is increased to match at least Bane and Deep Sleep. I know it's only a 1yalm difference but mobs commonly stack on the tank, while all melee dps in the game are designed and encouraged to constantly move to different sides of enemies, away from the tank and even eachother. When most Bosses are oversized different sides of a boss is easily a 10-15yalm hitbox.

Cure III(our only ranged aoe heal) is only useful when EVERYONE including the caster stacks in Titan HM. Wouldn't it make sense the Cure III had larger radius with weaker heal and Medica have high potency but smaller radius?

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Originally Posted by soshifood

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Nothing personal. My point is where you are keeping a tank up unless you also blow swiftcast and just happen to have the cure 3 proc its not going to make a difference. Its not even going to hit a dps at that point since the dps wouldn't even have time to get in for a swiftcast crit cure 3, and they would risk getting cleaved in most fights.

At the point where you have time to cast just casting two cure 2's is much more mana efficent regardless. If you absolutly have to be moving and the tank needs immediate heals i suppose its a good alternative to benediction (although your sch should have that covered with lustrate/fairy embrace plus your regen anyway), but having one of our highest lvl heals be so situational doesn't seem right. Granted, a huge part of it is simply the game, server client just fails.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

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My Cure II does 1.5k on average. Cure II crit is 2.2k while Cure III crit is 1.9k.

Don't forget that although you start a Cure II faster, there's always a recast time to wait for, which is the same as Cure III's cast.

For my stats (with cast times of 1.91s for Cure II, 2.39 for Cure III, both with recast times of 2.39s);
Cure II = 628 HP per second
Cure II crit = 921 HP per second
Cure III crit = 795 HP per second

Two Cure II's take up 4.78 secs in two casts; 628 HP per second. If you count from the moment the heal effect starts (4.3s), it's 698 HP per sec.

Cure II -> Cure III crit take 4.78 secs and heals for 711 HP per second. Cure III crit -> Cure II (4.3s) goes at 790 HP per sec.

You see where I'm going with this? It costs more, but it's faster if you're willing to use up that mana. That and the chance to heal (critical) someone else if they're within 4 yalms? Not a trash skill at all.

I found it helpful during Coil Turn 1. Both, our MT and OT, were kind of under geared. So every time Caduceus slapped them in the face (about every 5 or 6 seconds) I would use Cure III. Had no mana problems during the fight thanks to Shroud and Mage's Ballad.

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Originally Posted by soshifood

You see where I'm going with this? It costs more, but it's faster if you're willing to use up that mana. That and the chance to heal (critical) someone else if they're within 4 yalms? Not a trash skill at all.

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Are you suggesting that Cure III is worth it to use even if overcure doesn't proc? Because your breakdown doesn't include a non-crit Cure III.

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Originally Posted by jdnyc

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Like I said in a previous post, it could help if you get an organised team to stack together, though this is very situational and dependent on the boss you are facing. If I were to tell DPS A to stand on top DPS B over voice chat so I can heal them both; it's not a far-fetched idea at all. Let's say Titan HM fight has been going for too long and he's going to tumult you all to death. If your party can work together well, even a normal Cure III will give instant and massive healing compared to Medica or the slower Medica II in a short amount of time. This is disregarding the complaint about server client issues, because I think that's a little irrelevant to game mechanics.

The game is still new. What kind of strategies do you think seasoned/hardcore players will come up with in the future? What I'm saying right now is that Cure III opens up possibilities and has potential to be a useful skill (though Overcure would be less useful with higher crit rates).

As a Scholar, I'd kill for an ability like Cure III. There are so many times I need cures just on the melee dps, and having to stop healing to run there, risk taking damage myself, cast Succor twice and run back and resume curing sucks hard, and wastes so much time.

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Originally Posted by peaches

As a Scholar, I'd kill for an ability like Cure III. There are so many times I need cures just on the melee dps, and having to stop healing to run there, risk taking damage myself, cast Succor twice and run back and resume curing sucks hard, and wastes so much time.

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Its really not as good as you make it out to be if you consider the range. I'll stick to succor/medica. Tried using Cure 3 on hydra and getting the tanks to stack, didnt work as well as I thought it would. Maybe for garuda hurricane phase. I don't use my Overcure procs much except when the tank takes a huge hit and overcure happens to be up.

I definitely don't know the specifics of the spell, but just the general description sounds good. So many times I've been stuck somewhere and needed to AoE heal everyone, but couldn't. I definitely know how underwhelming procs are though, 20% for a free succor... I could blow through 6 stacks of Aetherflow without getting a free one, and its not the best proc to begin with. I think procs in general need a bit of a re-work, but that's another topic.

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Originally Posted by soshifood

The game is still new. What kind of strategies do you think seasoned/hardcore players will come up with in the future? What I'm saying right now is that Cure III opens up possibilities and has potential to be a useful skill (though Overcure would be less useful with higher crit rates).

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Well, good. Then I look forward to your someday maybe future where Cure III is something worth using. Until that magical day, it's poo.

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Originally Posted by soshifood

Wow, being downright nitpicky there. Benediction is a 300 sec cooldown (insanely long), and plenty of things can bring a tank's hp low. Titan's Mountain Buster and the vulnerability debuffs from BC bosses are a few things to name. Cure III saves DPSes without wasting too much timethanks to the ensured crit. It means I can continue spamming Cure II to keep a tank alive while having the one injured melee DPS back to full health. It's a nifty skill, particularly in Titan HM and Bahamut's Coil and I say this from experience. Or is this the part where you tell me that I'm horrible WHM? Because when you say, "tank shouldn't be dropping that low anyway", that's what I assume you're saying.

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The problem is that the guaranteed chance to crit isn't guaranteed to proc, and thus isn't guaranteed to be up when you need it. Yeah, when it is up, and people are in the right spots, and they need the healing, super. That's not very common given the really small radius and small proc chance; even if you are planning around it it might not hit everyone or might not be a crit, and in the kind of fights where the throughput the spell is capable of would be useful, missing people is not an option.

The way I wish it were designed would be either with a somewhat larger radius (still not like Medica though), or with the same setup it is now but say 50 more potency than Cure 2, so it's at least guaranteed better throughput even if the crit buff isn't up. Right now, since I can't be sure it'll hit anyone but who I target, it's essentially a more expensive Cure 2 with less throughput when the buff isn't up, and potentially less throughput when the buff is up (since Cure 2 could crit anyway), which is something I consider risky.

The range makes it kind of garbage for the AoE, I find using it super situationally is the best. Get proc tell melee dps to stack on x but that rarely happens Medica 2 + Cure 2 would be a better use of mp.

I only cast it if I happen to get a proc. But the biggest problem with the spell is range. Because of its pitiful range, it just ends up being a more expensive, less effective Cure II. If it had a wider range, it would probably warrant more situational use.

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Originally Posted by Menae

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The idea of the Overcure trait isn't to hit multiple people. That's massive emnity generation right there. 15% of the time you're casting Cure II, a Cure III crit will be available for 15 seconds. The probability of being able to use Overcure is much higher due to this. And it will be a crit as long as you cast while the buff is on. I'm not even talking about relying on this instead of Medica. Cure III crit is a good alternative to Cure II if someone needs a lot of healing asap, which was the whole point of my argument.

Most people don't even bother to put this ability on their hotbar cuz its so bad...

Please increase the PBAoE range...

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Originally Posted by soshifood

The idea of the Overcure trait isn't to hit multiple people. That's massive emnity generation right there. 15% of the time you're casting Cure II, a Cure III crit will be available for 15 seconds. The probability of being able to use Overcure is much higher due to this. And it will be a crit as long as you cast while the buff is on. I'm not even talking about relying on this instead of Medica. Cure III crit is a good alternative to Cure II if someone needs a lot of healing asap, which was the whole point of my argument.

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Hence why I suggested the increased potency to make it universally more healing than Cure II, even if only a little. Let's put it this way - what problems would it cause if Square redid Overcure so that instead of a guaranteed crit on your next Cure 3, it'd be a crit on your next Cure 2? Right now Cure 3 feels like it's only there for using up a proc, and a proc which isn't something I need a lot anyway.

The only time I ever use Cure III is when the tanks are near eachother, or tanking together. (hydra, Coil 2)
This makes it so you can practically solo heal Hydra, don't have to worry about one tank going down if you're healing both^^

Quite sad really I never go after that OvercureIII proc. It's just so damn expensive when a good ol' cure will do :X

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Originally Posted by Menae

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It's entirely possible that Cure III was made by Square Enix to be one of those moves which requires a lot of skill and coordination to properly utilise; i.e. stacking. Why? Because the heal is immense and is nearly the equivalent to two Medicas in half the amount of time. You know, kind of like how Street Fighter 4, by Capcom has combos which require extremely precise timing to pull off (which over the years pro players can now do effortlessly). A lot of things we find impossible become standard over time as long as people practice.

Now the skill could get a buff or a nerf once the data comes in for Square Enix. The range is short precisely because of its potential effectiveness as an AoE heal. Whether it's too short is debatable because the amount of heal is massive. If SE are going to increase the range after taking latency into account, I doubt it would be by a significant amount. This is simply to avoid Medica from becoming inferior.

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Originally Posted by soshifood

It's entirely possible that Cure III was made by Square Enix to be one of those moves which requires a lot of skill and coordination to properly utilise; i.e. stacking. Why? Because the heal is immense and is nearly the equivalent to two Medicas in half the amount of time. You know, kind of like how Street Fighter 4, by Capcom has combos which require extremely precise timing to pull off (which over the years pro players can now do effortlessly). A lot of things we find impossible become standard over time as long as people practice.

Now the skill could get a buff or a nerf once the data comes in for Square Enix. The range is short precisely because of its potential effectiveness as an AoE heal. Whether it's too short is debatable because the amount of heal is massive. If SE are going to increase the range after taking latency into account, I doubt it would be by a significant amount. This is simply to avoid Medica from becoming inferior.

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I'm okay in theory with the concept of a high-skill move, but the range is too short for use like that at the moment. You have to start your cast before everyone is stacked (or burn swiftcast, which eliminates a potential rez), then hope everyone makes it in time. The longer you wait, the more people are in range, because they'll have time to make it, but the longer everyone is stacked the more likely they get hit with an aoe. It's really tight timing, which might work well for Street Fighter 4, but in SF4 there are two players to deal with, not 8, and all the effortless high-level plays with extremely precise timing are possible because players are playing on one local machine, without internet delays and especially without the rubberbanding or other latency issues that have popped up an awful lot in this game.

I'm sure people can use Cure 3 to stack and heal effectively sometimes, but can they do so consistently, quickly, and does the encounter design allow for it to be a viable strategy. Those all three must be answered with yes for me to accept Cure 3 in it's current state, and right now the latency issues alone say no. Again, I'd be fine with the spell given a small potency boost over cure 2 and otherwise kept as is, to at least make it a throughput option for the tank. I'd also be fine with it being given a small range boost (to 6-8 yards) and otherwise being left as is to be a targetted aoe heal that I can use to hit the freaking melee. Right now though, it seems like the spell is trying to do too many things and none of them well enough.

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Originally Posted by soshifood

It's entirely possible that Cure III was made by Square Enix to be one of those moves which requires a lot of skill and coordination to properly utilise; i.e. stacking. Why? Because the heal is immense and is nearly the equivalent to two Medicas in half the amount of time. You know, kind of like how Street Fighter 4, by Capcom has combos which require extremely precise timing to pull off (which over the years pro players can now do effortlessly). A lot of things we find impossible become standard over time as long as people practice.

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I'm sorry but if you are going to compare FF14 with Street Fighter 4, saying hard combos with 1 frame links in it is like cure 3 in FF14, the comparison is completely wrong. If you are comparing them it would be like the difference between using different buttons in different situations. Some characters have some pokes or moves that rarely get used at all simply because they have other buttons or moves that do the same job but much more efficiently or better.

Think of Ryu's standing medium kick compared to his crouching one. They are both there to do the same job, but the crouching one is much more faster, cancelable and hits low. Its much better in almost every situation. The only times you will see someone use the standing one is when they mess up or trying some really tricky mind games. Other than playing mind games, the same thing can be said between Medica1/2 and Cure 3. Cure 3 is simply a situational tool that can be used whenever the time comes to do so, but until then, Medica1/2 are much more efficient at doing the job Cure 3 was assigned to do.

The mana cost is immense and the setup is a burden... I prefer to divine seal+medica.. maybe Medica x 2. I can hit more people and the mp consumption isn't so bad...Cure 3 is junk atm.

Remove cure 3 and give us back Sacred Prism >_>

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Originally Posted by Menae

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Your points are reasonable. It might not be particularly useful now, but I do believe that Cure III got some utility that shouldn't be dismissed entirely. Increasing the range by 2-3 yards wouldn't hurt the game too much.

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Originally Posted by WaffleSlaper

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You're missing the point. My point of the SF4 comparison was simply to show that game mechanics can be mastered even if they seem impossible at first. Nobody new to Street Fighter will know how to poke or perform mind games, let alone pull off 1-frame links. That's basically it.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Remove cure 3 and give us back Sacred Prism >_>

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I highly agree. I miss that skill. It doesn't have to be as OP as it was in 1.0, maybe a longer cool down. Like 180 secs so we can't abuse it. Anything is better than cure 3.

Cure 3 is useful in wave 6 of turn 4. People will be stacking behind dreadnaught during the enrage timer.

It is situational but far from useless

I think the AOE range of the heal could use a small increase.

People have to be nearly standing on your target to get the heal. Sometimes I think I'm being smooth by using cure 3 during some trash pull in AK or something where people goofed up and got agro. Even with people standing shoulder to shoulder it often doesn't touch the extra person.

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Originally Posted by MelvinK

Cure 3 is useful in wave 6 of turn 4. People will be stacking behind dreadnaught during the enrage timer.

It is situational but far from useless

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Not really with cure 3 you wont be hitting the main tank with heals. You have to be really close to the tank meaning you may get roto swiped accidently . Better to use a medica 2 >medica spam. It has been proven medica is enough to heal this part. Why go through all the trouble of making cure 3 work when medica does the job.

Now if you did something like have everyone but the tank stack on each other, then have the other healer heal the mt. While you cure 3 that is a strategy that can work too and may be better then straight spamming medica. But it is a strategy that is not needed because the fight can be done with medica 1 &2.

The fight and all other fights was designed to be healed with medica. Why go through the trouble of trying to make cure 3 work when you can just use medica 1+2. Cure 3 is not more mana efficient then medica 2 either.

In very specific situation cure 3 may be usable . That doesnt make it a good spell lol. Our spell list is limited. We cannot afford to have a pointless spell take up a slot.

I only use Cure 3 when it procs. Gives me a good automatic crit heal. Otherwise I just use Medica 2 for group healing.

The only plausible use I've found for it is the hydra fight, seeing as the tanks are standing virtually on top of eachother.

Unless I really need that crit heal from cure III: I almost never used it.

It's too situational, too costly, and can give insane threat if it hits more than 1 target.

Not that the latter is much of a problem since it's range is so small.

A possible way to make Cure III more worthwhile in later patches would be to give it the ability to eat the remaining Regen timer. By doing so it could take the remaining heals left in the regen (currently applied to target) and apply it to the Cure III itself. Cuz I'm sorry but Cure III with no proc is completely worthless imo. However, I can see this being highly OP, BUT it'd be a great way to top off severely hurt tanks. They should just remove the "aoe" effect entirely... it almost never lands on more than one target for me :(. This could be made possible through job traits later on I guess.

I agree with most that cure III without a proc isnt very useful but when it does proc it can be useful assuming your group stacks tight when they need to like turn 4 or turn 5. Personally I would rather see it reworked completely to heal a maximum of 3 people but have a heal and HoT component like Medica II and increase the radius from 4 yalms to 6. They could keep the same crit proc on the spell and have the HoT be shorter than medica II but stronger.

Something like:

Cure III
Cast 2.5s Range 30y Radius 6y Potency 550 Target AoE (3)
Additional Effect:
Regen Potency 250 Duration 6s

That way you get the effect you get now but on three targets more consistently because of the increased range and get two heals after that are close to cure I but take longer to tick than it would to cast as well as slightly less potency. You still wouln't use it very often because of mana but would give you another unique tool to use instead.

The range makes it absolutely useless if your melee are positioned properly. The only time I've been able to use it is during jumps in Titan HM, and only if your team stacks tight enough. But in that one instance, it's better than medica 2, lol.

I also only use it when it procs. I use it on the tank. But see? The times I use it are simply in shit moments when I need the guaranteed crit. I am not using it as intended, I would use Medica II or I instead.

I would much rather get an entirely different spell, like a prayer of mending spell (tweaked for this game of course). I would prefer one insta-cast spell.

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Originally Posted by soshifood

You're missing the point. My point of the SF4 comparison was simply to show that game mechanics can be mastered even if they seem impossible at first. Nobody new to Street Fighter will know how to poke or perform mind games, let alone pull off 1-frame links. That's basically it.

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I see your point: new game, seemingly hard mechanics can be mastered. The analogy may be slightly off though. FFXIV Cure 3 requires organizing multiple players. SF4 requires just you. The coordination is all internal. The only "lag" or "miscommunication" to account for in the coordinating efforts is based on your neural system :P

I'd be interested to know how many, if any, of the big names in the fighting game community play MMOs or strat games (LoL, DOTA).
anyway, points for the references.