Summoners useless in 24mans?

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Originally Posted by Krisan

How on earth do you figure that? Out of 24 people, only 18 are potentially debuffing, the other 6 are healers. BLM's only have 1 real debuff, so they are the absolute least offenders. BRD's should have plenty of room to share with the tanks at that point, none of the other DPS really have anything significant or long lasting that I'm aware of.. (Yeah a lot of abilities have debuffs attached, but I can't think of any that last terribly long.)

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First of all Scholars cast a buff on the tank that puts a debuff on the monster that he's fighting.

Secondly that leaves 30 debuff slots for 18 playe s which gives each player less than 2 debuff slots, and most every class that does damage has 2.

I didn't even know about this cap, i literally sat here drinking my morning coffee (tech support life) reading every post here and I can only hope this potential issue is addressed before the content patch. Although the topic is about summoners there are other classes whose abilities affect enemies. The biggest argument people seem to have here is that during Fate events the monsters still go down even after the cap is reached...This is true, but you also have about 50 people attacking it out in the open world and you aren't in some small dungeon which is purposefully designed for your 24 man team to attack it. Another thing is how would you feel if you realized that your abilities were useless and/or not hitting the enemy because of all the other debuffs being thown at it? Even if said boss is in the end killed, did you as a DOT class truly help? Heck...if some of you are happy just seeing a boss go down while knowing you were just dead weight during the whole fight I don't know where your pride as a gamer is. This needs to be fixed.

BUMP, because fix it please =/.

I and many others were criticized by so many people for saying that Summoner needs an overhaul and yet now it only comes to light with why I and others dropped the class at level 47(Others earlier or at 50) because we saw this issue before everyone else and noticed the big flaw in the cap and that will completely kill the Summoners DPS. So when is the Summoner class overhaul coming so that everything is focused on the summons instead of the Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Krisan

so yeah, roughly 18 debuffs at any one time if there's 1 SMN per group.

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don't forget thunder

it may not affect fester, but it's a lot better dps than ruin, same goes for shadowflare which may or may not be taking up a debuff slot with slow (although this is probably the best debuff there is so it should absolutely have priority)

I don't attribute ruin II to summoners as the tank is probably (should be) flashing anyways

but yeah, if you wanted to count defensive debuffs that may or may not be important depending on the fight, we could look at virus taking 2 slots, eye for an eye proc taking another

I remember this all to well back when Aion was released. I played a Spirit Master, or whatever the pet class was called. It was absolutely impossible for me to get any sort of contribution on these world events because of this stupid and thoughtless design decision.

Remove it.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

same goes for shadowflare which may or may not be taking up a debuff slot with slow (although this is probably the best debuff there is so it should absolutely have priority)

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Shadowflare is actually showed up as a "buff" on the Summoner. Not as a debuff on the mob, so Shadowflare is safe from the cap.

EDIT: Ignore me I'm not all here today @.@ Yes the slow takes a slot up I'm sorry. ; ;

I remember when WoW had a ridiculously low debuff limit and warriors weren't allowed to spec into deep wounds, rogues couldn't use poisons or Barman Shanker, and Blizzard acknowledged it was retarded and removed it... EIGHT YEARS AGO. How the heck is this sort of thing still around?

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Shadowflare is actually showed up as a "buff" on the Summoner. Not as a debuff on the mob, so Shadowflare is safe from the cap.

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The Slow it can proc I believe shows as a debuff though.

edit: bah, beat me to it

yeah, summoner's have the best slow in the game (non-diminishing)

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Originally Posted by Viscara

The Slow it can proc I believe shows as a debuff though.

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Ahh yeah the slow my B, I wasn't even thinking even though I read it in that person post, sorry ; ;

I think it's clever, Summoner DPS Certainly needs to be a concern on the radar. I'm all for different styles of play, but throwing dots, and a pet, and essentially safe from 80%+ of all fight mechanics due to the ability of sitting back 40+ yards away from the boss (NOT REAL NUMBERS) Makes stacking them far too common and defeats the point of having other DPS as far as elitists are concerned. They need to be limited before they get out of control even further.
If this turns out to be true, then that's a clever way of ensuring that summoners are still a vital part of groups, but blacklisting other jobs because they can't ignore 80% of mechanics, or suffer real penalties for actually doing their jobs.

Time will tell!

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Originally Posted by NamanoNanaya

I think it's clever, Summoner DPS Certainly needs to be a concern on the radar. I'm all for different styles of play, but throwing dots, and a pet, and essentially safe from 80%+ of all fight mechanics due to the ability of sitting back 40+ yards away from the boss (NOT REAL NUMBERS) Makes stacking them far too common and defeats the point of having other DPS as far as elitists are concerned. They need to be limited before they get out of control even further.
If this turns out to be true, then that's a clever way of ensuring that summoners are still a vital part of groups, but blacklisting other jobs because they can't ignore 80% of mechanics, or suffer real penalties for actually doing their jobs.

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This sounds like melee butthurt to me. Welcome to MMOs, melee dps is and has always been harder when fights are not designed to punish ranged, which is the majority outside of WoW and some of the newer fights in EQ2.

Bloody 1k character cap.

By "elitists" do you mean real progression guilds or scrub pugs who want to overgear and stack the raid in their favour due to lack of skill? If you mean real progression guilds, you don't need to worry about that, it does not sound like you belong in one.

Why would you blame the players for doing the optimal path? That's what some people like to do, optimize. You complaining about being limited by your own choices or abilities and suggesting that THEY be restricted is trying to control someone else's life and gameplay because of your choices. They aren't controlling you, they are simply excluding you. You don't want to be excluded? You have the power to not be, choose to satisfy their requirements or make your own group.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

24 man means everyone can only have 1.25 debuffs on enemy. And debuffs are not only dots. Dragoons have 2-3 debuffs pending fracture use. They also have a slow that applies a debuff so maybe 4. Many jobs have more than one debuff so a boss will be capped too easily in a 24 man environment.

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It is 3 full parties.
Who said the all 3 parties need to fight against the same enemy?

I skimmed the first few pages but I haven't found an answer to this...

Is anyone sure that the DoTs are REALLY capped at 30? I mean, yes... there only 'thirty' available DoT/buff 'slots' in the UI for a boss. However, that could just be a limit on what's showing and NOT a limit on what can be put on the mob. For example... If you look at the 'party' list, you can only currently see up to FIVE buffs/HoTs/DoTs on a party member at a time. This is super frustrating as a healer because you can't see for SURE if someone has a debuff unless you target them separately. Perhaps the '30 limit' is visual only because the enemy target bar can only take up so much 'space' on your UI.

I could be wrong... and if I am, I would like to see some sort of official statement by SE. Perhaps when you try to apply a DoT over the 30 limit, it says "no effect?" I'm not sure but I think FATE parties are a really bad example to use... no one knows what is or isn't affecting a mob during a FATE party because there's no way to accurately detect what's going on.

Anyway, a Summoner will typically keep 4 DoTs up on a main target constantly, with the occasional Virus (counts as 2 debuffs for SMN), Blind (shares diminished returns with other classes) and the AoE debuff you actually have to run up to use. The ground effect counts as a 'buff' on you and not a debuff on the mob as far as UI is concerned.

I personally hate the way the current UI works for buffs/debuffs. Having the text be in 'green' for your effects really isn't enough when there is no rhyme or rhythm to what's on the target. I would love it if there were an option to put my effects first or last on the list, just so they are at least bunched together... Fortunately, it's gotten to a point where a SMN has 'memorized' when it would be the appropriate time to refresh DoTs anyway.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It is 3 full parties.
Who said the all 3 parties need to fight against the same enemy?

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Right on those types of Raids there most likely be lots of enemies at once. Even in Boss fights. So some DPS will be busy killing adds. People are just making a deal out of this but is really not.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It is 3 full parties.
Who said the all 3 parties need to fight against the same enemy?

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Yoshi even said at TGS that there would be times the three parties would fight together and times they would go different routes through the raid. You can even guess that some fights would be more than one enemy, so i don't really see a problem here. I do wish it was easier to track dots of your own, and the cap was higher, but i don't see them doing this wrong.

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/...int_missed.gif

He is talking about the limitations as to how many dots a target can have from all sources.

Do Svara as SMN, pretty easy to see the issue.

DoT target, wait 4 seconds, fester > little to no damage due to lack of DoTs.

Yea, I remember doing Svara with all the people casting on it, none of my dots stick because of all the other dots and debuffs on it, and Fester doesn't do any damage because of it. I hope they do something about this before crystal tower hits. At some point, they are going to have to have fights where 24 people are attacking one target, or else crystal tower and any 24m content beyond it will get very boring very fast if it is just in reality 3 separate groups going their own separate way doing their own seperate things to open 1 door type deal.

Knowing SE they will come in with their generic and predictable response: "This is working as intended and we have no intention of changing it"

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

Is anyone sure that the DoTs are REALLY capped at 30?

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Yes it is, it's very obvious when you use a summoner skill called "Fester" wich will only do damage if your characters DoT abillities on on the monster. Go to any popular fate like Svara a meaty mob with way more than 24 zerging it and you will be able to see the 30 status effect cap tick over.

When this happens cast Bio, Miasma, Bio II (All skill that will allow Fester to proc and do damage) You will promptly see "No effect" tick instead of damage because your DoT's have been overwritten by other characters.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Yes it is, it's very obvious when you use a summoner skill called "Fester" wich will only do damage if your characters DoT abillities on on the monster. Go to any popular fate like Svara a meaty mob with way more than 24 zerging it and you will be able to see the 30 status effect cap tick over.

When this happens cast Bio, Miasma, Bio II (All skill that will allow Fester to proc and do damage) You will promptly see "No effect" tick instead of damage because your DoT's have been overwritten by other characters.

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Yes, that's exactly what I was asking... if there was any sort of message that said 'no effect'. Now I know there is. Back when I was leveling SMN, the population cap was still in place so I wasn't experiencing these issues. We'll have to see what happens in 24-man content. Regardless, no one should be 'class stacking' like they were in 1.0 (BLM on Garuda/CC, MNK on AV, etc). If a summoner typically has four DoTs up and constantly rolling, that would be only twelve 'debuff' slots if there was one SMN per party in the 'alliance'. That's less than half of the bar.

Summoner damage is reliable as long as the SMN knows how to stay alive. Our damage keeps ticking as we move, and our burst (Fester) is instant. That doesn't mean our job is 'easy'. We still have to dodge things, and we do have our weaknesses. I suspect that the debuff slots were created with the intention of preventing people from stacking certain classes (such as SMN, which I assume SE thought would be incredibly popular since it was the brand new 'shiny' pet class).

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

Yes, that's exactly what I was asking... if there was any sort of message that said 'no effect'. Now I know there is. Back when I was leveling SMN, the population cap was still in place so I wasn't experiencing these issues. We'll have to see what happens in 24-man content. Regardless, no one should be 'class stacking' like they were in 1.0 (BLM on Garuda/CC, MNK on AV, etc). If a summoner typically has four DoTs up and constantly rolling, that would be only twelve 'debuff' slots if there was one SMN per party in the 'alliance'. That's less than half of the bar.

Summoner damage is reliable as long as the SMN knows how to stay alive. Our damage keeps ticking as we move, and our burst (Fester) is instant. That doesn't mean our job is 'easy'. We still have to dodge things, and we do have our weaknesses. I suspect that the debuff slots were created with the intention of preventing people from stacking certain classes (such as SMN, which I assume SE thought would be incredibly popular since it was the brand new 'shiny' pet class).

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You don't need to class stack to reach 30 debuffs/dots. It counts every debuff and dot that can be applied from one character that is stackable, and there are a lot.

SMN damage is pretty crappy without the dots and fester btw. Take that away and they are one of the more useless classes on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

Glad you brought this up. At what time should you ask 20 players not to use half of their abilities (since alot of skills have debuffs attached) just so a couple of smns in the alliance can perform as designed? Never...ever...ever.

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Is it so crazy to ask players to plan instead of handing out trophies for facerolling?

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Originally Posted by Reika

You don't need to class stack to reach 30 debuffs/dots. It counts every debuff and dot that can be applied from one character that is stackable, and there are a lot.

SMN damage is pretty crappy without the dots and fester btw. Take that away and they are one of the more useless classes on the battlefield.

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I know how useless SMN is without DoTs... I'd be a pretty bad SMN if I didn't. =P I really would like to wait and see what Crystal Tower is going to look like. People have 'proved' that there IS a cap based on FATE mobs, but we all know that a ridiculous amount of people do those FATEs so it's not an accurate assessment of twenty-four raid members. It is known that summoners have the capacity to stack more debuffs on a mob than any other class (and USUALLY do), which is why I am saying avoiding class stacking will be a good way to keep the number down. Perhaps this 'cap' will be increased in the Crystal Tower. We just can't know for sure yet.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Is it so crazy to ask players to plan instead of handing out trophies for facerolling?

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Knew someone was going to say this....

How about we just not have a dot/debuff limit so content wont become exclusionary.


Oh yay, post limit...

having someone assigned to stuns is one thing, but telling 4/6 summoners that happen to be in your duty finder group (oh yea, crystal tower will have stuff like that happen) not to do damage really wont go well. The 30 debuff/dot limit doesn't even get touched in 4 or 8 man parties, so people think its not such a big deal until the full party size just triples. They really cant have any encounters where 24 people are attacking 1 thing in a raid environment, a duty environment espeically, unless they fix this.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Knew someone was going to say this....

How about we just not have a dot/debuff limit so content wont become exclusionary.

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On that topic, people already DO ask others to not use certain abilities so as to not mess up the fight.

Example: stuns. If anyone but the designated stunner(s) uses an ability that stuns, the mob will start 'resisting'. This is super common in Ifrit, when a PLD is on stun duty and someone else accidentally stuns... then the PLD's next stun will be resisted and eruptions will go off. (Inb4 people are like "oh but PLD aren't the only stunners, wars and other melee can do it too" and "you can still beat the fight without stuns -- just dodge eruption). The reason I mention this example is because it's something a lot of people can relate to... whether they are far along in 'endgame' or not. Another example is Chimera. You really, really need to stop those abilities from going off... whether it be from stunning him or silencing him or whatever you can do. If you have designated stunners and someone else stuns, it messes the whole fight up.

I'm not defending or 'apologizing' for this behavior, but I did want to point it out because people seem to be talking about how asking other people to alter the way they play is extremely outrageous and far-fetched. It's not. Ideally, though, there would be no cap.

Ryuko I think your missing the point some people are making which is people will not want too many summoners in their group because of the limit.

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Originally Posted by Roaminggnome

Ryuko I think your missing the point some people are making which is people will not want too many summoners in their group because of the limit.

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My point is... You don't NEED that many summoners in your group. As I said, this could be a measure to prevent class stacking.

Let's look at a typical 8 person party. For argument's sake, we'll have an equal distribution of classes (leaving out the arguments/bickering of who is the better tank/healer/caster/melee).

2 tanks (paladin+warrior)
2 healers (white mage+scholar)
4 dps (four of the following: dragoon/monk/black mage/summoner/bard)

Keep in mind that a LOT of classes share certain 'additional effects' that overwrite each other and affect diminishing returns. One good example is blind. I bring this up because summoners have Ruin II which applies this. If other classes use an effect that blinds, you will notice the diminishing returns and you will also notice their effect 'replace' yours. It is also important to remember that not every class will be attacking the same mob at the same time. Main tanks and off tanks often 'split up', effectively splitting their effects. Healers don't often cast much on a mob outside of the occasional Virus.

If you don't class stack, summoners really have nothing to worry about. YES, the 30 debuff limit should be changed and/or lifted... but like I said, even if you have one summoner per party in the three party 'alliance', that's only 12 'constant' debuffs from the SMN (assuming you use thunder, which you should), give or take a few for situations (namely virus although plenty of other mages will throw this up as needed because of the large cooldown... such as on Titan for MB). We are the class with the MOST debuffs by far, only three of which actually affect our fester burst damage.

Still... it seems almost silly to speculate because we don't know what will happen in 24-man dungeons. I can understand why they put a 'cap' on FATE mobs... too many debuffs and the mobs would die even faster than they already do, and that's already way too fast... those fights are a joke.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

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It's only a concern for larger scaled fights, like open world ones and the upcoming 24 man raid, not in 8 or 4 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Menubrea

It's only a concern for larger scaled fights, like open world ones and the upcoming 24 man raid, not in 8 or 4 dungeons.

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I know, and that's what I'm talking about.

If there is one summoner per 'raid' party, that's three summoners per raid... 12 total DoTs from all summoner (considering the typical four DoTs a summoner USUALLY keeps rolling on one target).

As I said... we don't know how this 'cap' will be changed/altered in Crystal Tower. It hasn't even been added yet. To be quite honest, I am not at all concerned about whether or not I will be wanted in a 24-man dungeon.

If you have 3 summoners, 3 dragoons, any other combination of 6 other dps, a warrior and a paladin, youll hit the debuff/dot cap on 1 monster considering yout dpsers are actually dpsing to thier full potential. 3 dragoons have 3 dots they can share, 1 taken from warrior. That brings it up to 21. Rage of halone debuff that is always going to be there 22. Disembowl 23, occasional super virus 25 (takes 2 debuff slots) eye for an eye debuff 26, now you have very few left for the combination of monk, bard, and blm for their dots and/or debuffs. I specifically mentioned the dragoons too because they have the 2nd most importance to keep their dots and debuff up.

Who are you going to tell not to do their full damage output? Your best bet would to not take more than 1 summoner or dragoon, but now the content becomes, as I said, exclusionary, and I personally dont want that crap happening again like in 1.0 ans xi.

As long as they do what they said about crystal tower, which is the 3 separate groups will go accomplish seperate objectives,meaning fighting seperate monsters, it will all be good.

Could still use some improvements on things like Odin Fate though. Or even it out, so only 20 melee attackers can do damage and then it caps out so all other melee people do 0 damage. Because it is kind of silly that events which focus on bringing a lot of people have a cap that prevents you from actually contributing.

It'd be much easier if they cut out the limit on debuffs/dots but made it an option that you only see your own debuffs/dots on a target. Would cut out seeing the potentially huge number of icons filling up your screen as well as solving the issue with the large number of dots and debuffs spread across the classes.

I know they've mentioned before about the groups being split up but you know for certain that there will be at least one fight with a burn phase with all the party members attacking one target so you'll definitely be hitting this issue.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

He means debuff on the any particular enemy is capped. Let's say that there are 10 summoners and they all place up those 3 dots. The enemy now has 30 debuffs on it, if say a dragoon runs up and places his increased piercing damage and his own dot on the enemy, two dots will just fall off the enemy.

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Do you expect a lot of 24 man parties to contain 10 Summoners?

there will not be 24 players attacking the same mobs or boss

three groups of 8 will work towards completing the 24man dungeon in separate ways

The good ol' times of vanilla WoW and 8 debuff limit in 40-man raids. Or was it 16? But yeah anyway, 30 is too low for 24-mans.

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Originally Posted by Kafeen

Do you expect a lot of 24 man parties to contain 10 Summoners?

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No, but the problem here is that you will run out of slots on any balanced combination against a single enemy before everyone gets to place their debuffs they need to do their job properly, and using a fourth Summoner just because you happen to have four is going to make it even worse.

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Originally Posted by Krisan

How on earth do you figure that? Out of 24 people, only 18 are potentially debuffing, the other 6 are healers. BLM's only have 1 real debuff, so they are the absolute least offenders. BRD's should have plenty of room to share with the tanks at that point, none of the other DPS really have anything significant or long lasting that I'm aware of.. (Yeah a lot of abilities have debuffs attached, but I can't think of any that last terribly long.)

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DRG : Chaos Thrust -> dot of 360 total potency, last 30s / Phebotomize -> dot of 290 total potency, last 18s / Disembowled : debuff of 10% percing resistance, last 30s, must be used for Chaos Thrust. You basically want DRG to not use their 2 skills with the higher total potency (Full Thrust is at the end of a combo) and a debuff which buff their damages quite a bit.

If they meet up for bosses. There'll be problems. Paladin has 3/4 debuffs on a mob almost constantly, with another 3 depending on situation.

Flash, Scorn, Rage of Halone and Fracture will be up almost all the time. With Pacification/Stun/Silence being situational. One tank has just made more than 10% out of the total limit right there. Out of 24 people. This isn't going to work, assuming a full setup trying to down one boss.

Either content will have to be made such that alliances won't be hitting the same targets all the time, or the cap will have to be worked around somehow. If debuffs get overwritten, hrm, what to overwrite? That critical pacification? Maybe the stun - that won't be needed. Flash - tank can just take more damage right? If Summoners are going to be screwed, the entire alliance will be having issues with content. No having your Whm Aero for more damage. Maybe we'll get total immunity from all debuffs, so stun/flash/rage of halone/etc become moot points so they won't need to be applied.

It's not a whine, just a - seeing that if this is exactly as stated, then more than just summoners are going to be hurt by this.

This is an issue I have been posting about for awhile.

Original thread which they moved/closed: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ially-24-mans.


New thread with a GM saying to post it "Here" but with no link attached: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-mob-can-have.

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Originally Posted by Kafeen

Do you expect a lot of 24 man parties to contain 10 Summoners?

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Obviously not a real life scenario. I wasn't even complaining, I was only offering an explanation so the people asking before my post about how they didn't understand what the OP was talking about.

When you offer explanations you try to avoid being overly complicated, simple gets the point across better. Which I did.