Restricting Weapon skills to original class.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

The more I think about it, the more I can see two ways that they might consider altering the cross-class usage of weapon skills, if they decide to do anything at all.

1. Leave some weapon skills with the ability to cross-class, but make others, perhaps the better ones, class-specific.

2. Do not change the ability to cross-class weapon skills, but only allow a weapon skill to be used when the damage type of the weapon equipped matches the damage type of the weapon skill (see PUG weapons with slashing mentioned above).

I'm on the fence as to how I feel about it at this point. I could see either method done, or none at all. The second one seems like a logical move to me.

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Congrats. #1 is how the current game is. I am sure you have seen them before. That Speed Surge and Life Surge you have as a lancer can not be used as a Pugilist. While they could be more restricted (as I can't think of any restricted PUG skills off the top of my head), they are/have worked on the idea of open class weapon skills, closed class abilities. You want them to enhance the current method, which is fine. The classes are being looked at in how they are to be defined nearly constantly from within and without.

I think a lot of us like the "FF:Tactics" build system. Sure they need to define you main job more, but that's in the works.

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Originally Posted by Sirtis

Congrats. #1 is how the current game is. I am sure you have seen them before. That Speed Surge and Life Surge you have as a lancer can not be used as a Pugilist. While they could be more restricted (as I can't think of any restricted PUG skills off the top of my head), they are/have worked on the idea of open class weapon skills, closed class abilities. You want them to enhance the current method, which is fine. The classes are being looked at in how they are to be defined nearly constantly from within and without.

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That's odd. I thought we were just talking about weapon skills here. What I meant in #1 is reducing the number of weapon skills that can be used cross-class. Using PUG as an example, allow Concussive Blow and Seismic Shock to be cross-classed, but keep Aura Pulse PUG only. Allow Jarring Strike to be cross-classed, but keep Haymaker PUG only.

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That's odd. I thought we were just talking about weapon skills here.

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I'm curious, for anyone against this thread's topic; If incapacitation and damage type were not an issue, would you then be in favor of having most/all/new weapon skills be restricted in order for the developers to have a manageable list of animations/effects an so said animations/effects could then be improved?

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Originally Posted by Roaran

I'm curious, for anyone against this thread's topic; If incapacitation and damage type were not an issue, would you then be in favor of having most/all/new weapon skills be restricted in order for the developers to have a manageable list of animations/effects an so said animations/effects could then be improved?

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i'm not. I support the idea of improved animation and exclusive animations when a class use its native WS, but i don't agree with restrictin g WS to its native class.

I believe, however, that this might happen with the new jobs. I believe new classes may be just like current ones, but new jobs (advanced jobs) will have most actions restricted to them.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

I'm curious, for anyone against this thread's topic; If incapacitation and damage type were not an issue, would you then be in favor of having most/all/new weapon skills be restricted in order for the developers to have a manageable list of animations/effects an so said animations/effects could then be improved?

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Well, that puts it more into the gray area for me. The issue I have is that if Job supply skill-sets, should their weapon skills only be limited to what is available for their active weapon? I keep finding reasons to say "no" to this, even though restrictions COULD be beneficial in this situation.

For example... Why shouldn't a Monk be able to use Marauder or Lancer skills in addition to Pugilist ones, when they have the potential to congeal so well? Why should a hunter be stuck to Glad or Arc when being able to use ranged Glad skills just sounds so much more fun in addition to Hunter skills?

From my point of view though, the DEVs want my money... Thus, I don't think it's plausible for them to hide behind the excuse of it being difficult to create accurate animations. SquEnix, has and CAN put more into this game's aesthetics other than the amount of vRAM it burns up or how "HiDef it can be". In-fact, they can and SHOULD do just the opposite- allow lower power, better detailed aesthetics which trades off the HD for charm and clever design

There would be no point to play multiple class if they remove the cross skill feature which is reason people play cross-classes now.

If crossing were actually the problem, then why CON/THM spell also look so plain/suck? So I agree that animation could improve as cross-class skill too! it is only up to them to work on it or lazy.

I agree with Physic and Lienn. Dampening the armoury system not only screws over a lot of classes, and requires rebalancing, but it also pulls the uniqueness of the armoury out of the game which is Final Fantasy XIV's best game mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I agree with Physic and Lienn. Dampening the armoury system not only screws over a lot of classes, and requires rebalancing, but it also pulls the uniqueness of the armoury out of the game which is Final Fantasy XIV's best game mechanic.

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There are just as many people who think its the worst game mechanic and waters the game down.

Opinions.. Opinions..

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Originally Posted by Alise

If crossing were actually the problem, then why CON/THM spell also look so plain/suck?

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I thought this was a good point, but if you look at the whole development situation concerning battle effects, Spells and WS are all included together. If you spend too much time on one, the other suffers. Or if you expand one too much, the other suffers as well.

So, just because spells suck, doesn't necessarily mean its an art problem, it is still a design problem.

Another point that could be made, if less time is spent on making effects & animations work for all the classes, more time would be available for spells. So both could improve by simply limiting weapon skills to their weapon.

****Also I think some people might be getting confused. This thread is only about limiting weapon skills, not all actions. Those not familiar with ffxi, a weapon skill would be considered any melee skill like Skull Sunder or Red Lotus Blade, or possibly even magic skills like Damnation and Radiance.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

I'm curious, for anyone against this thread's topic; If incapacitation and damage type were not an issue, would you then be in favor of having most/all/new weapon skills be restricted in order for the developers to have a manageable list of animations/effects an so said animations/effects could then be improved?

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If incapacitation was not an issue, probably I was never using cross-class skills. The damage is lower (without affinity), cooldown higher...
i.e. I use leg sweep with every class because I don't have a formal substitute, or I need more stun's skills in my rotation.

If I'm tanking as marauder, I need taunt and provoke. If I'm tanking as gladiator, do I need taunt?

I can use some skill from conj if I'm thau, but does it really worth? less damage, cooldown... and both have direct spells and DOT spells.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

****Also I think some people might be getting confused. This thread is only about limiting weapon skills, not all actions. Those not familiar with ffxi, a weapon skill would be considered any melee skill like Skull Sunder or Red Lotus Blade, or possibly even magic skills like Damnation and Radiance.

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I have to agree with this. I think some people are getting confused with the difference between Weapon Skills and Abilities/Magic. Even if they restrict WS's to their parent weapons the system is still very customizable. To me, it just makes sense that Weapon Skills should be just that, Weapon Skills. Abilities and Magic should remain unchanged.

In the end, I think the new job system they're working on will take care of all this. Though I'm assuming they they might restrict WS's, Abilities and Magic with it, something many will not be too happy about. For example: Changing to Paladin will only let you equip staffs, swords and daggers for weapons; healing and buffing spells for magic; and enmity generation, defense/magic defense buffs for abilities.

I personally would accept this system, but I'm sure many will not. We'll see what happens.

After the announcement of the new battle system being right around the corner, AND a new job system in the pipeline I am going to withhold my opinions and judgement on the current system. But I found nothing wrong with XI's job setup. Not to say they couldn't drastically tweak it but I really hope for some roles in PT based battles.

Making WS abilities more specialized for each class would be one way of doing this. Especially if they had effects like dispel, and weaken, or stun attached to them.

Well they would first have to overhaul the long overdo problem of most skills being exactly or close to the same.

It brings back the FF11 battle system argument that, at least they had the foresight of giving things like WS very specific properties so that people would tactically select between them.

The who idea of skill chains revolved around WS properties as much as damage and as much as types of weapons. Much more elegant then what we currently have in FF14.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Well they would first have to overhaul the long overdo problem of most skills being exactly or close to the same.

It brings back the FF11 battle system argument that, at least they had the foresight of giving things like WS very specific properties so that people would tactically select between them.


The who idea of skill chains revolved around WS properties as much as damage and as much as types of weapons. Much more elegant then what we currently have in FF14.

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uhhh not really, only some jobs could do certain skill chains for a long time, and you usually only had one weapon skill that had good damage for any level, so if you used something else, you were sacrificing major damage
(i remember opening in a skill chain with one inch punch, when raging fist would have done more damage that the burst)

This weaponskill system, looks more boring since they reuse 99% of the animations, but you have various useful weapon skills, with different costs, and different uses, and you often use more than one type in a fight, its much more entertaining to me.

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Originally Posted by Physic

uhhh not really, only some jobs could do certain skill chains for a long time, and you usually only had one weapon skill that had good damage for any level, so if you used something else, you were sacrificing major damage
(i remember opening in a skill chain with one inch punch, when raging fist would have done more damage that the burst)

This weaponskill system, looks more boring since they reuse 99% of the animations, but you have various useful weapon skills, with different costs, and different uses, and you often use more than one type in a fight, its much more entertaining to me.

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Not exactly. You have it backwards. Many weapon skills could interact differently, it was the choice of the player to choose.

The fact that NA's typically had the "crab problem" was also effected to "usual suspects" weapon skills (distortion). Same with light because xp parties needed light properties(as oppose to bah darkness!).

That didn't mean you couldn't go fighting dark weakness monsters or fusion monsters, or other elementally weak monsters.

Though hitting a lvl 2 teir WS made some skills more preferable, but then it depended on the party formation again. The whole point of WS was to tactically choose well, and separate roles and specializations (like how most melees end up with keeping 2 weapons near capped).

Basically "cookie cuttering" exceptions doesn't bring down the fact FF11 foresight into WS properties was many times more elegant then FF14's crap-tactular revision.

FF14's skill system seriously needs/being revision.

Anyone who wants the Armory System to remain as it is has already lost this argument. They are changing it. Despite being unique and interesting in a sandbox mode kinda way, it was a dismal failure. It seems most people want more defined Class Roles and I think that is what we are getting.

I hope we still can cross-abilities (some anyway, I can't survive without Sacrifice 2)) but I always thought using an Axe Weapon Skill with a Bow is extremely silly.

Think about it...if a Pug is loaded up on Axe Weapon Skills and Abilities, it comes to a point where you're not a Pugilist anymore but rather a Marauder using Hand-to-Hand weapons.

Why bother having Class Names at all then? We are all just "Adventurers" using weapons and skills all willy-nilly so from now on I want to be called a "GladiMar PugLanConTurge".....or maybe just "Weapon Master"...but I really just want to be an Archer.

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Originally Posted by Davorok

Anyone who wants the Armory System to remain as it is has already lost this argument. They are changing it. Despite being unique and interesting in a sandbox mode kinda way, it was a dismal failure. It seems most people want more defined Class Roles and I think that is what we are getting.

I hope we still can cross-abilities (some anyway, I can't survive without Sacrifice 2)) but I always thought using an Axe Weapon Skill with a Bow is extremely silly.

Think about it...if a Pug is loaded up on Axe Weapon Skills and Abilities, it comes to a point where you're not a Pugilist anymore but rather a Marauder using Hand-to-Hand weapons.

Why bother having Class Names at all then? We are all just "Adventurers" using weapons and skills all willy-nilly so from now on I want to be called a "GladiMar PugLanConTurge".....or maybe just "Weapon Master"...but I really just want to be an Archer.

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thing to keep in mind is most of the weapon skills, arent particular to that weapon, like red lotus, is not called red lotus blade, it is just red lotus. The description of concussive blow is beat an enemiy about the head, doesnt require fists to do that.
Far as a marauder using hand to hand skills, really it is not the weapon skills that tend to define the class, it is usually the basic attacks. Pug is defined by heavy strike, flurry, light strike and pummel. light strike enhances defense and evasion, making them one of the best dodge charachters, and then they can make people pay with on evade moves. Flurry and heavy combine to make a pugilist able to deal a lot of blows fast. Its really that defines pug.
Anyhow they are going to make some changes, but i think they will probably keep the armory system mostly intact.

Honestly the thing they could best do to make battle more entertaining is add more unique looking weapon skills, and even abilities. they could do different motions for some of the skills.