Is most of FFXIV's failings due to their choice of engine?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Crystal tools was designed with the intention to produce seamless cinematic cut-scenes using the in game engine.

That's fine for a single player experience but doesn't lend itself very well to a massive open world like an MMO, as previously mentioned Crystal tools doesn't utilise streaming very well and thats why we have huge copy and paste zones. (lets not forget that the PS3 is limiting this due to memory restraints, something the PC doesn't have an issue with so much)


Final Fantasy XIV = Crystal Tools + PS3 = pretty bad limitations.
Blade and Soul = UE3 + PS3 = much better streaming capabilities and doesn't have such an impact on limiting the PC version.

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Pretty much couldn't they just rework the engine at all? I know they have spent an incredible amount of time on it, but it seems like they kind of have to work around the engine just to get everything to work and be able to port it to the PS3.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

Pretty much couldn't they just rework the engine at all? I know they have spent an incredible amount of time on it, but it seems like they kind of have to work around the engine just to get everything to work and be able to port it to the PS3.

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You mean like with every engine out there?

does it mean that PS3 will cause limitation to the game?
like PS2 with FFXI .... ?

the same story again.

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Originally Posted by Evangelus

does it mean that PS3 will cause limitation to the game?
like PS2 with FFXI .... ?

the same story again.

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No. It means that the PS3 version wil run on lower resolution (720p), with a lower polycount and capped at 30 fps. As we already know.
Considering the fact that overally the graphics of this game are better than any other MMO on the market or that will hit in the foreseeable future, there's no indication than the PS3 is limiting the PC version.
That's why the PS3 version has been delayed to begin with, to solve the hardware issues it had *without* limiting the PC version.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You mean like with every engine out there?

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Wait what? >_>

Clearly im not all too knowledgeable about game engines, but what i meant to ask was if they could just remodel the engine just a bit, to serve a better role for an MMO instead of a single player game. Or would this have such a huge impact on the PS3 port that they wont even bother changing it?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. It means that the PS3 version wil run on lower resolution (720p), with a lower polycount and capped at 30 fps. As we already know.
Considering the fact that overally the graphics of this game are better than any other MMO on the market or that will hit in the foreseeable future, there's no indication than the PS3 is limiting the PC version.
That's why the PS3 version has been delayed to begin with, to solve the hardware issues it had *without* limiting the PC version.

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Wow, well this sucks for my friend, because I'm playing the game on a HD 6850 and Athlon II X2 3.0ghz and he believes the PS3 would be able to play the game better, since it will be optimized specifically for the PS3 components.

I'm not sure what to expect but 30 FPS is just horrible for a PS3. =/

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The unreal engine 3 is a multiplatform engine as well, and is just as limited. Put on blade and soul the same character details, the same polygon count and texture resolution and effects and then we'll talk :D

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That's a completely different issue, nobody in their right mind would expect a PS3 game to compete visually with a PC game.

We are taking about level design and memory constraints here, not rendering capabilities and fill rates.

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does it mean that PS3 will cause limitation to the game?
like PS2 with FFXI .... ?

the same story again.

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Of course it will and it already is, the copy and paste design of the world is mostly down to memory restraints on the PS3.

Yosh-p said as much in one of his posts that if they were to redesign The black shroud they would either have to make the zone smaller or have multiple zones so that it would fit into the PS3's memory.

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Considering the fact that overally the graphics of this game are better than any other MMO on the market or that will hit in the foreseeable future, there's no indication than the PS3 is limiting the PC version.

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I think Tera would protest to that, and I am willing to bet Blade and Soul at maximum settings looks better than FFXIV.

But as others have said, B&S has dynamic real time shadowing and lighting which is a massive boost in visuals for me.

Of course I doubt it would take much for SE to implement shadowing in real time, but I imagine the performance hit would be massive.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

Wait what? >_>

Clearly im not all too knowledgeable about game engines, but what i meant to ask was if they could just remodel the engine just a bit, to serve a better role for an MMO instead of a single player game. Or would this have such a huge impact on the PS3 port that they wont even bother changing it?

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Every multiplatform engine out there has some trouble and requires a degree of adjustment to work on the PS3, given the different architecture of the console.

They should have reworked the engine for what exactly? They achieved the best looking MMO in the market, and there's absolutely no realistic indication of having limitations in place due to the console version (That in fact has been delayed to solve the issues on that side only).

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Originally Posted by Jinko

We are taking about level design and memory constraints here, not rendering capabilities and fill rates.

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Which is why the game has been delayed on PS3. To solve the memory constraints *without* incluencing the PC version. People wrongly assume that since they used tiling for *some* areas of the game they did so due to memory constraints (and not simply due to time/dev resources management loke logic would dictate). Memory is so constrained that, unlike most other games, there's no zoning between cities and outside areas, and between outside areas and dungeons.

It's funny to see people throw wild theories about memory cpnstraints infliencing the engine when they didn't see a line of code of said engine.

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That's a completely different issue, nobody in their right mind would expect a PS3 game to compete visually with a PC game.

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Not comparing a PS3 game with a PC game.

I'm comparing Blade and Soul (PC), with FFXIV (PC). And the former comes out utterly crushed comparing overall graphics.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

You know, for a 'voice of reason' , you are not very reasonable.

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lol well said

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Every multiplatform engine out there has some trouble and requires a degree of adjustment to work on the PS3, given the different architecture of the console.

They should have reworked the engine for what exactly? They achieved the best looking MMO in the market, and there's absolutely no realistic indication of having limitations in place due to the console version (That in fact has been delayed to solve the issues on that side only).

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Oh i see, so then I guess I have been misinformed, or I just simply misunderstood something somewhere. Thanks for clearing that up, I appreciate it. ^^ I'm good with nerd-talk to an extent. I'm not nerd enough to be in the nerd club ;_;

don't worry, 30fps is more than enough for an mmo. The eye itself sees things at 30 fps if i remember my biology right, most games aim for 60fps only so that when the game slows, it won't dip below 30. keeps the images flowing smoothly.

Your friend probably won't notice the difference.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Of course it will and it already is, the copy and paste design of the world is mostly down to memory restraints on the PS3.

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copy paste is not a "fast technique" for making fast enormous zone?

I always saw this as being a way out the game quickly

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

don't worry, 30fps is more than enough for an mmo. The eye itself sees things at 30 fps if i remember my biology right, most games aim for 60fps only so that when the game slows, it won't dip below 30. keeps the images flowing smoothly.

Your friend probably won't notice the difference.

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Yeah I was hoping that was the case. I never had a game run below 30 fps besides FFXI on my laptop, and that was bad. Before i upgraded my graphics card on this computer I was playing FFXIV at around 20 FPS and it was decent, but now its well over 50 fps and I'm satisfied.

Thanks! I'm eager to know more about the PS3 version, since I can easily take a PS3 to my friend's house sometimes. Its more of the mobile way to play FFXIV than my desktop. lol

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Originally Posted by Abriael

It's funny to see people throw wild theories about memory cpnstraints infliencing the engine when they didn't see a line of code of said engine.

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I find even more hilarious that you stand there and spout that you know better when you don't either.

Time to step down from that high horse mister.

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Not comparing a PS3 game with a PC game.

I'm comparing Blade and Soul (PC), with FFXIV (PC). And the former comes out utterly crushed comparing overall graphics.

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Well if you can live with out real lighting and shadowing then good for you by I like my games to have those things, personal taste I guess.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. It means that the PS3 version wil run on lower resolution (720p), with a lower polycount and capped at 30 fps. As we already know.
Considering the fact that overally the graphics of this game are better than any other MMO on the market or that will hit in the foreseeable future, there's no indication than the PS3 is limiting the PC version.
That's why the PS3 version has been delayed to begin with, to solve the hardware issues it had *without* limiting the PC version.

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The ps3 delay isn't due to hardware, its due the lack of content and low reviews of the game at launch. The ps3 needs to be a success that is why they are holding it back while they improve the game enough to get a 2nd review for the game, change that 4.0 into a 8 or 9.

Just because the art style of the one game looks better than another like for instance the character detail and texture detail on the model doesn't change the fact that unreal engine 3 can produce much more rich models than the ones in FFXIV, before you go being a fan boy and talking out of your ass, you need to know that it all comes to the game designer and what the market hardware they are targeting. These are the limitations of the models not the engine. So lets take a look at really what the Unreal Engine 3 can really do. Lets be blown away. This is what the unreal engine can do, FFXIV can't even hold a candle to it look at the detail in his face. Not to mention this is all in real time. If a game maker really wanted to they could put these sort of graphics out in an mmo, but who would be able to run it. These are the limitation of the models and textures you see in games like blade and soul, its limited not by the tech the engine runs on but by the hardware the market has.

The problem is the market, most games now days are made for consoles, then ported to pc. Crystal tools only uses dx9 because it was really written for the ps3/360 old hardware. So please don't talk about the how Crystal tools is some sort of amazing tech engine, because in truth it isn't its is flawed at its core, it was coded for old outdated architecture, and from what I can tell putting in newer effects will require a lot work than it might be worth. There is a reason why so many companies go for unreal engine 3, it is so scale-able, and the graphical pay off is high for the amount of resources it uses.

To say that Blade and Soul looks like shit is really grasping at straws yo... The environmental details definitely look much better than the blandness that we see in this game. I mean look at that waterfall, look at the draw-distance on that. Also, I'm fairly certain that those settings aren't maxed out either.

Let's face it. FFXIV is not the graphical beast we all would like it to be, its more of a hog than anything really.

Edit: I should probably make a video showcasing this game's graphics compared to Blade and Soul and the other beast (TERA) at the same res with maxed out settings. Side by side comparisons would help greatly.

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

don't worry, 30fps is more than enough for an mmo. The eye itself sees things at 30 fps if i remember my biology right, most games aim for 60fps only so that when the game slows, it won't dip below 30. keeps the images flowing smoothly.

Your friend probably won't notice the difference.

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Actually the "the eye sees only 30 fps" theory has been debunked multiple times. That said, there's simply no way to make a game as graphically intensive as FFXIV run on a console at 60 fps, even with limiting the polycount and texture resolution.
While consoles have a more optimized hardware, they simply can't compare. That said, of course, 30 fps is still very enjoyable, and FFXIV won't be the first nor the last game running at 30 fps on consoles.

The funniest part about this kind of thread is that people scream the "the PS3 limited the PC version!" mantra over and over, while every single PC only MMORPG out there is extremely imited in it's engine not by having to run on PC or consoles, but by the fact that the developers want it to run on hardware from the early 2000s (that's much more limited than a PS3 will ever be) in order to grab more customers.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I find even more hilarious that you stand there and spout that you know better when you don't either.

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At least i can critically assess a game's graphics, and understand that characters and environments have to share the hardware resources instead of being judged in airtight compartments.
looks like some don't.

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Well if you can live with out real lighting and shadowing then good for you by I like my games to have those things, personal taste I guess.

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So "real" that shadows don't even cast on characters?

Idk, the world was pretty awesome but the whole running on water thing got my attention... That shit was pretty tight.

Yeah that water-striding bit looked pretty rad.

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Originally Posted by Allcars

The ps3 delay isn't due to hardware, its due the lack of content and low reviews of the game at launch.

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Bull.
The PS3 version has been delayed quite a lot earlier than launch, and they explained quite clearly that it was due to them having to work around memory issues without influencing the PC version.

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Just because the art style of the one game looks better than another like for instance the character detail and texture detail on the model doesn't change the fact that unreal engine 3 can produce much more rich models than the ones in FFXIV.

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*BOOM*
Too bad that "art style" has absolutely nothing to do with the engine, character detail and texture resolution.

FFXIV has much "richer" models than any MMORPG ever made on the UE3, and it has nothing to do with "art style" (which is just a matter of art direction, not of hardware and engine), but with the fact that they have a much higher polycount, higher resolution textures and extensive use of normal mapping.

At the very least, please, get your fact straight. Polycount, texture resolution and mapping effects aren't a matter of opinion, and most definitely not of "style".

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Originally Posted by Abriael

So "real" that shadows don't even cast on characters?

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Self shadowing is a separate process and yes UE3 can do it, you are comparing a few videos that may not even have the game maxed out, for all we know self shadowing may be turned off in the players settings or maybe perhaps the game doesn't support it.

But your grasping at straws when all you have to go on is a few videos, when you actually have hands on experience let me know :)

Its way to late to change FFXIV from scratch but some fixes to the scenery will do good.

The Blade & Soul vid... the graphics are stunning, can't argue that, i also love the gear a lot and the weapons. It looks like the artists had a lot of fun.

everything would be so simple if the developer replies to all these questions and debates .... without giving vague answers

who to believe now?

copy/paste is not a means of creating zones quickly?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Self shadowing is a separate process and yes UE3 can do it, you are comparing a few videos that may not even have the game maxed out, for all we know self shadowing may be turned off in the players settings or maybe perhaps the game doesn't support it.

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The fact that the unreal engine can do it doesn't matter it will be put in Blade and Soul, simply because self shadowing is *very* hardware intensive, especially when it has to work on a LOT of characters at once (situation that is very common in MMORPGs)
The crystal tools can do self shadowing as well, as much as dynamic lightning and shading. They simply didn't put it in this game because they preferred to focus hardware resources in other areas of the rendering, like characters, textures and texture effects, to which Blade and Soul (or any other MMORPG built with the UE3) doesn't hold a candle.
It's that simple.

An engine supporting a feature doesn't mean that that feature will be included in all the games created with it.

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But your grasping at straws when all you have to go on is a few videos, when you actually have hands on experience let me know :)

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So it's ok to use the same videos to bash FFXIV, but it's not ok to critically look at their actual flaws? LOL.
Talk about biased.

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Originally Posted by Evangelus

copy/paste is not a means of creating zones quickly?

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Of course it is, some people just like to speculate on things they don't really know without having a single clue.

Mind you, if the devs had to reply to all the threads generated by ignorance that pop up on the forums, they wouldn't work on the game.


By the way, Se actually experimented with the UE3 (on The Last Remnant). Quite obviously the expriment has been discarded. With good reason.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

TSo it's ok to use the same videos to bash FFXIV, but it's not ok to critically look at their actual flaws? LOL.
Talk about biased.

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Who's bashing anything, I'm simply stating what I see and you are the one aggressively defending FFXIV.

Fact is we both play FFXIV we know what the game is capable of, looking at a video and saying oh "that's it, whats the fuss about?" is very short sighted because as far as I know neither of us have access to mess around with Blade and Souls settings.

Sure I can look at that video and say environments look better, lighting looks better, shadows look better, because I have actual hands on experience with FFXIV.

I'm not the one being bias here lol.

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By the way, Se actually experimented with the UE3 (on The Last Remnant). Quite obviously the expriment has been discarded. With good reason.

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Indeed they didn't know how to take advantage of it, Lost Odyssey also used UE3 and did much better job at it, although granted it did have a few issues. (but MistWalker has a fraction of the employs and resources SE have)

You can't blame the engine for a lack of development knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Bull.
The PS3 version has been delayed quite a lot earlier than launch, and they explained quite clearly that it was due to them having to work around memory issues without influencing the PC version.



*BOOM*
Too bad that "art style" has absolutely nothing to do with the engine, character detail and texture resolution.

FFXIV has much "richer" models than any MMORPG ever made on the UE3, and it has nothing to do with "art style" (which is just a matter of art direction, not of hardware and engine), but with the fact that they have a much higher polycount, higher resolution textures and extensive use of normal mapping.

At the very least, please, get your fact straight. Polycount, texture resolution and mapping effects aren't a matter of opinion, and most definitely not of "style".

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You have no idea what you are talking about, lets take a look at team fortress 2 and Half life 2 episode 2. Both use the same engine, one has much lower poly count and less detailed textures, both were released at the same time. If you bothered reading what I had to say about the player market base you would understand why mmo developers use the low detailed mesh's for their games using unreal engine 3, let me explain it to you again, this is because the largest market doesn't have high end machines, the main limitation of the graphics for games today is the market base, look at most games these days made for the 360/ps3 over the pc, why you ask? because of the market base on the consoles compared to the smaller base on the pc.

If you are right about the ps3 version of FFXIV due to the limitation of the hardware, I really don't see this game going anywhere. lets look at it like this if FFXIV were released on both console and pc, at the same time. Both were rated 4.0 I believe Square Enix would have canceled the game. The pc release was a market test/beta test to see if Square Enix could get away with releasing the game in the current state. The test showed that the game couldn't float on its name alone and thus the ps3 version delayed for a 2nd release so they can get a new review of the game when the ps3 version launches and get better scores. This will lead to not only a large ps3 player serge but also old and new pc players coming back to see what really has changed over the course of the year or however long it takes to make this game to change from a rushed rated 4.0 of a game, to a polished 8 or 9 rated game. So before you tell me to get my facts straight, you better get yours first.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Who's bashing anything, I'm simply stating what I see and you are the one aggressively defending FFXIV.

Fact is we both play FFXIV we know what the game is capable of, looking at a video and saying oh "that's it, whats the fuss about?" is very short sighted because as far as I know neither of us have access to mess around with the games settings.

Sure I can look at that video and say environments look better, lighting looks better, shadows look better, because I have actual hands on experience with FFXIV.

I'm not the one being bias here lol.

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You have actual hands on experience with one side of the comparison but not with the other, exactly like me. And please, let's not play dumb. You're most definitely using the videos to bash FFXIV. It's hilarious that you get all defensive when someone takes those videos and critically assesses their graphical quality and flaws.

Lightning doesn't really look better (especially considering that you still didn't see any lightning outher than full sunshine, while FFXIV's lightning has some of the best dawn/sunset/night effects in the market), the environments don't look any better, especially considering how flat and lacking definition the texture are, not to mention the limited texture mapping.
Shading indeed looks better (with it's flaws and limitations, like the lack of self shading, which is seriously bad looking), but that's ONE element in the whole rendering.

One element doesn't make an engine better than the other by itself, while every other part of the rendering is more detailed on the other engine, including characters, which are the most graphically intensive and the focal point of any MMORPG. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

And please, let's not play dumb. You're most definitely using the videos to bash FFXIV. It's hilarious that you get all defensive when someone takes those videos and critically assesses their graphical quality and flaws.

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Oh really, I can tell you now that I have no intention of playing Blade and Soul, Tera on the other hand which tramples this game into the ground both visually and mechanically I will be.

Don't try to make me out to be a hater, that's not to say I'm a fanboy either, I'm just being realistic.

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Originally Posted by Allcars

You have no idea what you are talking about, lets take a look at team fortress 2 and Half life 2 episode 2. Both use the same engine, one has much lower poly count and less detailed textures, both were released at the same time. If you bothered reading what I had to say about the player market base you would understand why mmo developers use the low detailed mesh's for their games using unreal engine 3, let me explain it to you again, this is because the largest market doesn't have high end machines, the main limitation of the graphics for games today is the market base, look at most games these days made for the 360/ps3 over the pc, why you ask? because of the market base on the consoles compared to the smaller base on the pc.

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LOL. You're comparing two games that are part of two different *genres*, with extremely different requirements for gameplay, character display and environments.
I'm comparing two MMORPGs. Same genre -> comparison works. Different genre -> Apple to oranges.

But again, if you don't even know the difference between "art style" and graphical detail, there's very little to discuss. As of graphics quality (polycount, texture resolution, texture mapping effects and so forth), FXIV obliterates any MMORPG ever built with the UE3.
You can speculate as much as you want about how much the developers limited themselves, but that's just speculation.

When we'll see another engine producing a game as detailed as FFXIV, the we'll talk, at the moment there's none even on the horizon.

Mind you, you're so off base in talking about "art style" that it isn't even funny. The "art style" is exactly the reason for which i'll play Blade & Soul when it'll be released, as I absolutely adore Hyung Tae Kim's art.
But again, that has nothing to do with the engine.

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If you are right about the ps3 version of FFXIV due to the limitation of the hardware, I really don't see this game going anywhere. lets look at it like this if FFXIV were released on both console and pc, at the same time. Both were rated 4.0 I believe Square Enix would have canceled the game. The pc release was a market test/beta test to see if Square Enix could get away with releasing the game in the current state. The test showed that the game couldn't float on its name alone and thus the ps3 version delayed for a 2nd release so they can get a new review of the game when the ps3 version launches and get better scores. This will lead to not only a large ps3 player serge but also old and new pc players coming back to see what really has changed over the course of the year or however long it takes to make this game to change from a rushed rated 4.0 of a game, to a polished 8 or 9 rated game. So before you tell me to get my facts straight, you better get yours first.

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Lol. I don't need to get any fact straight. What you just wrote is total baseless personal speculation. What I stated is fact. The PS3 version was delayed way before the PC release, and they said clearly that they did so to solve memory issues it had. That's all there's to it. Fact > Speculation.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Oh really, I can tell you now that I have no intention of playing Blade and Soul, Tera on the other hand which tramples this game into the ground both visually and mechanically I will be.

Don't try to make me out to be a hater, that's not to say I'm a fanboy either, I'm just being realistic.

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Bolded the obvious contradiction.

Tera has exactly the same flaws Blade and Soul has, it's easily surpassed by FFXIV in every aspect of character definition, texture effects and texture resolution.
It doesn't even get near FFXIV in overall graphics detail, and shading is the only area where it's better. Again, a single aspect doesn't make a whole engine better (especially considering that both engines include that feature, it's just a matter of implementation).

Tera looks nice, but it's nowhere near a miracle graphics-wise. It's usual korean MMO fare.

By the way, I'm such a "fanboy" that I'm going to play *both* Tera and Blade and Soul (and guild Wars 2, and SWTOR, and a couple others on my radar), lol

I didn't read the whole thread but I don't think the engine is entirely the issue. Using DX9 is a major issue when it comes to performance, but I honestly think that one of the bigger reasons for the blasnd environments, boring animations, etc, is because of PS3 limitations. PS3 has very low memory, it can't load half as much as an average PC. When you see beautiful console games it's because the worlds are fairly closed off and the console doesn't have to load as much, but in a MMO where worlds are completely open, that's a bit of a problem.

I think they intentionally made the environment copy/paste and the environments pretty boring because they were trying to keep the game portable to the PS3. I don't know if this will ever be fixed, I kind of want to say it wont, but who knows. PS3 is powerful for a console but it still can't even compete with just an average $300 PC.

Having tried to explain all my reasons to you, You seem to not be able to understand the basic understanding of art style and how it ties in with texture detail, poly counts, shading, and all around graphical direction. Crystal tools is a great engine, but it isn't the best choice to use, that was the only point was I making and from what I can tell many others were making. Your head seems to be so high in the clouds you can't see past something so easy for everyone else to see, right now you look moronic and most people will have given up hope on arguing with you. I may have based the ps3 delay on speculation, but that isn't what I was pointing at for fact.

Here is some food for thought, the ps3 was due to be release in march correct? by then the ps3 limitations would have been figured out, if they have been figured out why isn't it release right away instead of waiting for an expansion to release. Much like they did with XI and the ps2.

It's not just how great the environment looks... Blade and Soul can interact with theirs. The only way we can interact is the doors in Copperbell Mines

Yes, IMO.

If they had went the unreal route like most others they could have focused on making a great game instead of making the engine work.

Of course you would get people bitching that omg it looks like a Korean mmo (bullshit, engine doesn't dictate art direction), but they are the same retarded fanboys that defend the game like it was perfect right now.

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Originally Posted by Ava

I didn't read the whole thread but I don't think the engine is entirely the issue. Using DX9 is a major issue when it comes to performance, but I honestly think that one of the bigger reasons for the blasnd environments, boring animations, etc, is because of PS3 limitations. PS3 has very low memory, it can't load half as much as an average PC. When you see beautiful console games it's because the worlds are fairly closed off and the console doesn't have to load as much, but in a MMO where worlds are completely open, that's a bit of a problem.

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Ahem, there are plenty sandbox games with large open environments on consoles, PS3 included. GTA4, Fallout 3, Red Dead Redemption and so forth.

Again, the PS3 version has been delayed exactly in order to solve the memory issues. This removes any ground under the feet of the "the PC version is limited by the PS3 one" theory.
Mind you, the extensive use of tiled ground is easily explained by time/dev resources constraint, and by the fact that they were the first to be developed, paired with the fact that *every* mmorpg out there uses asset recycling.

Looking at areas that were obviously designed later, like cohertas and mor dhona, you easily see that the recycling issues aren't nearly as visible (and they look awesome).

If they really were constrained by memory limitations as some people continue to say, there'd be zoninng between open areas and cities/dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Allcars

Having tried to explain all my reasons to you, You seem to not be able to understand the basic understanding of art style and how it ties in with texture detail, poly counts, shading, and all around graphical direction.

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There's nothing to understand there. There's no tie.
Art direction is one thing. Graphics detail is a completely different thing.
One is a matter of style. The other is a matter of engine and hardware.

The only correlation is that the engine can limit access to some extreme graphical styles due to hardware limitations, for instance a completely photo-realistic style is almost impossible in a MMORPG under any engine.

Other than that, there's no relation. It's not a matter of style. It's a matter of engine. Crystal tools has demonstrated to be able to support extremely detailed characters, high resolution textures and texture effects and an extremely long field of vision in a MMORPG environment. The UE3 hasn't. It's that simple.

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Here is some food for thought, the ps3 was due to be release in march correct? by then the ps3 limitations would have been figured out, if they have been figured out why isn't it release right away instead of waiting for an expansion to release. Much like they did with XI and the ps2.

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Correlation dosn't imply causation. The first delay was due to solving memory limitations, as factually stated by the developer itself. The second delay is a completely different animal, again, as factually stated by the developer itself.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Yes, IMO.

If they had went the unreal route like most others they could have focused on making a great game instead of making the engine work.

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LOL. because using a third party engine is obviously much easier than use their in-house engine to which their developers and artists are used and in which they are already experienced right?
The things I have to read...

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Ahem, there are plenty sandbox games with large open environments on consoles, PS3 included. GTA4, Fallout 3, Red Dead Redemption and so forth.

Again, the PS3 version has been delayed exactly in order to solve the memory issues. This removes any ground under the feet of the "the PC version is limited by the PS3 one" theory.
Mind you, the extensive use of tiled ground is easily explained by time/dev resources constraint, and by the fact that they were the first to be developed, paired with the fact that *every* mmorpg out there uses asset recycling.

Looking at areas that were obviously designed later, like cohertas and mor dhona, you easily see that the recycling issues aren't nearly as visible (and they look awesome).

If they really were constrained by memory limitations as some people continue to say, there'd be zoninng between open areas and cities/dungeons.

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(Dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll.... damn!)

I've never played any of the games you listed but aren't you contradicting an argument you've been making in this thread and on these forums? Comparing apples to oranges? Those 3 games you listed belong in an entirely different genre, don't need to load unique player characters constantly, and I am pretty sure they don't have a world comparable to that of a MMO (despite what you say). You even admitted truth to my reasoning (memory issues). So, you must just be trolling, ah well.

Actually Abriael is the only one making sense in this whole discussion.

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Originally Posted by Ava

(Dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll.... damn!)

I've never played any of the games you listed but aren't you contradicting an argument you've been making in this thread and on these forums? Comparing apples to oranges? Those 3 games you listed belong in an entirely different genre, don't need to load unique player characters constantly, and I am pretty sure they don't have a world comparable to that of a MMO (despite what you say). You even admitted truth to my reasoning (memory issues). So, you must just be trolling, ah well.

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Unfortunately for your extremely flawed theories, there's no contradiction.
GTA4, for instance, has to display a crapton of character models and other mobiles (like cars for instance), so it's entirely comparable to a MMORPG in the field of hardware resources. Yet, it works on a console, simply because the memory limitations can be worked around in several ways.

Which is, by the way, the whole reason why they delayed the PS3 version and not the PC one. They had to work around the memory limitations of the PS3 without limiting the PC version.
if the PS3 version limited the PC version, they would have delayed both. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

LOL. because using a third party engine is obviously much easier than use their in-house engine to which their developers and artists are used and in which they are already experienced right?
The things I have to read...

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You mean a true tested, highly polished, highly flexible, super optimized, next-gen supporting engine vs their in-house engine that is lacking even the very most basic optimizations?

You sir, are made of ignorance and fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzjsTt_DzCw

Thank god someone else who understands what I am talking about.

There is a contradiction, its as clear as bloody day....
You are talking about games that are designed for consoles, all the examples you have listed are based on the consoles limitations. From memory (and will probably need some corrections as I am not a expert) the difference between a sandbox game and a mmorpg or any mmo tbh is going to be whats going on behind the scenes. Those sandbox games, you used gta4 as an example so i will to. You said it has to display a crapton of character and car models however these all operate on an algorithm written into the games code so nothing happens without a trigger of some kind be it reaching a street corner or entering a park. where as in a mmo outside of the limited NPCs everything is unscripted characters move randomly may log out or have a large log in of players all around you. all of these factor into the memory usage of a game, then there are the models to be rendered. so we have to wait for information from the server to reach us (this is related to your internet connection, but still somewhat relevant i feel) in that time have the players moved, have more people logged in or out/entered the area you are currently in, changed gears etcetc. so your rig be it pc or console is tracking and processing all of this info. From this I assume that a simple sandbox such as gta4 is incomparable to a mmo.

There is more that could be added and if someone here cares to add and elaborate more or even correct me that would be much appreciated however its 430am here and I really can't be bothered to type more.

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Originally Posted by Allcars

I never played XI, but lets take a look at what the Devs envisioned for FFXIV, Look at the lighting, the shading the architecture, the real time water reflections. What happened, sure don't get me wrong FFXIV looks amazing, I max the game out, but should the cost of resources it requires to run at the highest quality be justified for what we have currently? I think not, a game like blade and soul has better shading and lighting, sure it may have lower texture quality, but look at how nice it looks blade and soul looks as is. When you are using Unreal Engine 3 you also get fantastic lighting realtime water effects amazing shading detail rich character detail, no load zones so you can steam content. All at very low resources on your hardware. Crystal tool may have potential, but currently the only potential I have seen is the character detail, and sometimes with the clipping errors, and lack of more realistic cloth physics that is bogged down.

Don't get me wrong I love playing FFXIV, I just think they could have optimized more visually for currently high level hardware than what we currently have. Low detailed water, lighting that reminds me of more unreal 2.x, load zones, shadows that eat up any high end hardware.

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As many of you know and have already stated. We have Zones the game does not steam the data of the area SO imagine this. If we had environmental shadows that had to interact with us and water reflections of the whole light effects that occur in one game day. That is a massive resources hog for any video card witch i would say would make FFXIV even less playable with current hardware as it is now.

If they manage to implement steaming of data then can fix the areas just changing some bit maps but until then really don't expect it since it would make the game the most resources needed game comparing it to fur mark 11