BLM vs Bard

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Bard's level 3 limit break does revive people. It's the same limit break as the healer's. 1 and 2 restore HP and 3 fully revives everyone.

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Thanks. Noted. Never tried the level 3 one and didn't have the chance of seeing a healer's limit break yet. I always let/asked BLM and DRG/MNK to do the limit breaks, because theirs actually deal damage.

Love my BARD...everyone please stop trying to get it nerfed that will not do anyone any good. We are going to be needed for MP,TP recovery down the line and if you get us all nerfed there goes the later fights becasue you wanted to be the highest DPS...not smart. Think about it in terms of the party...you will end up hurting your self in the long run by getting it nerfed.
By the way our buff's rock: Internal release to increase crits, Hawk's eye increase DEX 20%, Barrage increase auto attacks to 3, Raging Strikes increase damage for a bit, Blood for Blood (keep heals on me I am doing 20% more damage) Add in a well timed DEX potion for another % gain and we are a rockin' and rollin'...don't HATE. We wreck stuff! Oh yeah all this while 2 DOT's are running...REPEAT!

to be fair, a BLM should do more than a Bard

so wth dragoons are what third? i thought we were highest dps...i mean im always 2nd in emmity when it comes to bosses.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

[COLOR="darkorchid"][B]Love my BARD...everyone please stop trying to get it nerfed that will not do anyone any good.

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correction, it will not do YOU any good, for everyone else, a well-balanced system is much more preferable.

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We are going to be needed for MP,TP recovery down the line and if you get us all nerfed there goes the later fights becasue you wanted to be the highest DPS...not smart. Think about it in terms of the party...you will end up hurting your self in the long run by getting it nerfed.

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yes, because it'll make for a much healthier game if everyone would just use bard only for dps :rolleyes:

Considering all parsers are currently not working correctly for DoTs, and both BLM and BRD use a DoT, saying any of this is true is stupid.

At the same time, you would need a BRD/BLM next to eachother in the exact same relative gear set to even begin to make a comparison.

Think you don't need a parser to tell? Wrong again. If you want a class to be nerfed and changed, you need actual evidence of a need. Otherwise you're just biased against one class and crying on the internet.

Generaly BLM outdamages BRD as long as you can remain stationary. In fights where you have to move around their dps should be around the same. I say should because it deppends on the skill of the BLM(mostly knowledge of rotations and ability to min/max movement and attack). BLM dps is often worse, but not because their damage is inherently bad but because it has a bit of a higher skill cap (not really too high - it's more of a thing of knowing which rotation is the best damage - for example, I've seen BLMs only spamming Fire III/Blizzard III which is terrible). BRD on the other hand shines whre there's a lot of movement since, theoreticaly, their dps is the same when moving or standing still.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

Considering all parsers are currently not working correctly for DoTs, and both BLM and BRD use a DoT, saying any of this is true is stupid.

At the same time, you would need a BRD/BLM next to eachother in the exact same relative gear set to even begin to make a comparison.

Think you don't need a parser to tell? Wrong again. If you want a class to be nerfed and changed, you need actual evidence of a need. Otherwise you're just biased against one class and crying on the internet.

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This is so true...why is everyone just assuming that Black Mage is not the top DPS...will SE/Yoshi and his team answer this for us...I know that their damage calcs work good and they know for sure what the highest DPS is or would they never give up that kind of info for fear of killing a class off because it is the lowest DPS? Someone should try asking them and see if they will give us the answer.
Can't some smart person just do the math and figure this out:
Take a level 50 Black Mage/Bard/Monk/Dragoon/Arcanist/Summoner
Put them in all same level gear and get the stats and figure out the DPS
If you know how long DOT run and what the damage is...then????
I'm not saying I can do it but someone is good at stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

Generaly BLM outdamages BRD as long as you can remain stationary.

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You have no evidence of this whatsoever.

Show me a parse that works, show me their gear, show me proof of their skills as players, and then we have an argument. This is a complete lie.

Why do people always feel the need to reduce everything into oversimplified, binary classifications of X is better than Y? Bards and Black Mages are different. Bards do amazing DPS and their ability to DPS on the run is indeed superior to Black Mages. Can a Bard sleep a ton of mobs that are about to swallow you for dessert? Can a Bard throw that oh-so-important l3 LB on Ifrit's Nails? Don't be so obsessed with being the best in every category, but rather with being able to maximize your potential in the specific role your class was designed to play.

BRD also has no offensive Limit Break...so most other DPS should out-damage them during important fights.

blm has far superior dps especially w/ groups of monsters doing 1700+ flare crits on numerous mobs back to back to back is alot more than the measley brd numbers.

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Originally Posted by jcw005

that oh-so-important l3 LB on Ifrit's Nails?

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PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF... "that oh so important LB3 on Ifrit's nails"... you wouldn't be one of those that think that an aoe LB is mandatory for Ifrit, right?

Aaaanyway, that aside, most of the posts in this thread are basically "wahhh, don't nerf BRD because it's my job! Waaaaahhhh"

BRD is one of my favorite jobs and even I admit that it should be toned down a bit. There's no reason for a "half support" DPS to be dealing much more damage than a purely damage oriented mage nor other pure DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF... "that oh so important LB3 on Ifrit's nails"... you wouldn't be one of those that think that an aoe LB is mandatory for Ifrit, right?

Aaaanyway, that aside, most of the posts in this thread are basically "wahhh, don't nerf BRD because it's my job! Waaaaahhhh"

BRD is one of my favorite jobs and even I admit that it should be toned down a bit. There's no reason for a "half support" DPS to be dealing much more damage than a purely damage oriented mage nor other pure DPS jobs.

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No jobs are pure anything. DRG Gets slow/stun etc. BLM has crowd control, physick. Whm gets offensive spells, etc etc.

BRD is not "half a support DPS" its a DPS and gets to throw up ONE...SINGLE....SONG at the sacrifice of 20% of its damage. That is the beginning and end of BRD support. It will not be out dps-ing you with songs up or using its Healing LB (i.e: fulfilling it's "support" role).

FIX FOR BLM:

Remove global cooldown on instant cast proc spells. IE: Swiftcast Fire III will not have a global cooldown, allowing the player to immediately start casting another spell. This imo would be a TRUE instant cast. The current form of instant cast saves only roughly 1 second, instead of a full 2.5 like it should. Right now, an instant cast still has a 2.5 second cooldown, then for BLM another 2.5 second cast for the next spell, that's 5 whole seconds of nothingness, it doesn't feel right. Likewise, Thundercloud proc Thunder III would have no global cooldown, allowing the player to immediately return to casting.

There is a very annoying lag in the FIRE III proc as well.

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

I am just afraid of playing the class I find to be most fun also being a far inferior class. They could also just buff us to bard level. Anything that would equal the playing field.

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Does it make more sense to play a job you don't enjoy just because it has bigger numbers than someone else?

Think about why you're playing. If its to be better than anyone else then you might as well give up now because chances are, someone is going to be better than you whether BRD, BLM or any other class; if its because you enjoy playing the game than carry on doing what ever you enjoy doing and don't worry so much about what other are doing.

every damage dealers actual output is pretty equal, its just bard can keep doing damage while playing dodge the red spots making it go way past everyone that has to stop and reposition over and over

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Originally Posted by Klefth

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF... "that oh so important LB3 on Ifrit's nails"... you wouldn't be one of those that think that an aoe LB is mandatory for Ifrit, right?

Aaaanyway, that aside, most of the posts in this thread are basically "wahhh, don't nerf BRD because it's my job! Waaaaahhhh"

BRD is one of my favorite jobs and even I admit that it should be toned down a bit. There's no reason for a "half support" DPS to be dealing much more damage than a purely damage oriented mage nor other pure DPS jobs.

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Wow what a big man, with all of your end game knowledge.

Also; Provide proof and parses that show that BRD needs to be "toned down" because all I see here is eyeballing and conjecture.

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Originally Posted by jcw005

Why do people always feel the need to reduce everything into oversimplified, binary classifications of X is better than Y? Bards and Black Mages are different. Bards do amazing DPS and their ability to DPS on the run is indeed superior to Black Mages. Can a Bard sleep a ton of mobs that are about to swallow you for dessert? Can a Bard throw that oh-so-important l3 LB on Ifrit's Nails? Don't be so obsessed with being the best in every category.

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When i as a player pick up a blm, and find that I cannot cast spells while moving, it gets quite frustrating when swiftcast is on a huge cooldown. Often In harder boss fights you have to move a lot so the EFFECTIVE dps of a bard is a lot higher since they can move and deal more damage. That dosenst seem like a fair trade off. And no, when I think of BLM, i think of most damage, not a utility mage. The arcanist is what i would think to be a utility mage. Its a black mage for godsake!

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Originally Posted by Klefth

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF... "that oh so important LB3 on Ifrit's nails"... you wouldn't be one of those that think that an aoe LB is mandatory for Ifrit, right?

Aaaanyway, that aside, most of the posts in this thread are basically "wahhh, don't nerf BRD because it's my job! Waaaaahhhh"

BRD is one of my favorite jobs and even I admit that it should be toned down a bit. There's no reason for a "half support" DPS to be dealing much more damage than a purely damage oriented mage nor other pure DPS jobs.

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This times 1 billion

OKAY!~ OK! Ok, so how about this BLMs - Us bards promise to always nerf our dps by putting up Foe Requiem to give you your elemental damage boost when we're in parties together. That way you can wave your top dps e-peen, and us bards don't have to get nerfed because we won't have as much dps as you. See? You win! You get to tell everyone about how big your DPS is!

Now, for Dragoons that want Bards nerfed ~ Hawha, you can go sit in the corner and play with the monks till you realize how good you have it.

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

When i as a player pick up a blm, and find that I cannot cast spells while moving, it gets quite frustrating when swiftcast is on a huge cooldown. Often In harder boss fights you have to move a lot so the EFFECTIVE dps of a bard is a lot higher since they can move and deal more damage. That dosenst seem like a fair trade off. And no, when I think of BLM, i think of most damage, not a utility mage. The arcanist is what i would think to be a utility mage. Its a black mage for godsake!

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There are some BLM spells I've never used more than 1 or 2 times to try them out, like Freeze and Apocatastasis.

Mana wall is very cool and useful, Flare is a decent finisher and convert acts like a nice battery in case you get stuck under Astral Fire with Transpose on cooldown.

But Freeze and Apocatastasis? Pure trash, garbage. Crap.

Give us representative BLM spells instead of those, like Ultima, Meteor, Demi...

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

why is it bad that blm is 2nd place? i mean it sounds to me that mnk and drg need a rebalance not these two if they aren't even considered in the running.

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This lol, when it comes down to numbers but at the end of the day it comes down to the players. I still find myself out damaging bards and BLM time to time. (Especially if they are dead)

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Originally Posted by Nihility

every damage dealers actual output is pretty equal, its just bard can keep doing damage while playing dodge the red spots making it go way past everyone that has to stop and reposition over and over

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It keeps coming back to the same question. How is that fair>? How is that good game design?

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Originally Posted by Dorin

There are some BLM spells I've never used more than 1 or 2 times to try them out, like Freeze and Apocatastasis.

Mana wall is very cool and useful, Flare is a decent finisher and convert acts like a nice battery in case you get stuck under Astral Fire with Transpose on cooldown.

But Freeze and Apocatastasis? Pure trash, garbage. Crap.


Give us representative BLM spells instead of those, like Ultima, Meteor, Demi...

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Yep I feel the same way

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

It keeps coming back to the same question. How is that fair>? How is that good game design?

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It keeps coming back to the same question. How is that NOT fair>? How is not catering solely to you not good game design?

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Originally Posted by arctic

It keeps coming back to the same question. How is that NOT fair>? How is not catering solely to you not good game design?

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Because you move while casting attacks and have short cooldowns.

I (a pure dps oriented class) do less damage while staying it the same spot to cast much longer spells.

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

Because you move while casting attacks and have short cooldowns.

I (a pure dps oriented class) do less damage while staying it the same spot to cast much longer spells.

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Go roll Monk. A class that can move and pump out tons of hits and still have trouble registering on the dps meter. You have no idea what's not fair.

Really? Sweet!

From a Tanks perspective.

Summoner is my favorite DPS job assuming nothing needs to be slept. Sharing DoT's across things does not build up aggro very fast, so it's very easy to tank for you.
Black Mage is my second favorite DPS job. You have Sleep (and some of you even use it). You have very nice spike damage and will not sputter out in a fight.
Bard is my THIRD favorite DPS job. Spike Damage is great (let me have more than 1 action before you blow your load). Limit Break is useless in 4 man content.
Monk / Dragoon are tied at the end. Stun skill, and Single Target LB are really the only things I'm happy with here.

From a DPS perspective.

I love that Bard doesn't have cast times. That's why I leveled it, even if it was low on the totem pole for damage I can be mobile while I DPS.
I like the idea BLM has strong support with being able to sleep targets, and that I never have to worry about running out of MP.
I don't like playing Summoner, trying to keep focused to keep DOTs up when things just die quickly makes me feel useless even if the damage ticks away.

I don't like Monk/Dragoon the attack range is too small so if things fidget I can't hit them and most of my combo's are only average unless I'm running in circles around the enemy.

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Originally Posted by arctic

Go roll Monk. A class that can move and pump out tons of hits and still have trouble registering on the dps meter. You have no idea what's not fair.

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A common thing when someone acknowledges they can provide no further points. Attributing to something outside of the direct argument that is barely relevant to the topic at hand.

I am aware of the monk's problems and they do need a massive buff. But this is the BLM vs Bard thread.

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

Because you move while casting attacks and have short cooldowns.

I (a pure dps oriented class) do less damage while staying it the same spot to cast much longer spells.

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Uhh, what? BLM's Flare Can do up to 2k if not, more. BLM's do ALOT of DMG (Assuming you know how to play it and good rotations), but i'm going to assume you don't. This is just basically another QQ thread of "I want BLM's to be able to move while casting", which will NEVER happen.

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

A common thing when someone acknowledges they can provide no further points. Attributing to something outside of the direct argument that is barely relevant to the topic at hand.

I am aware of the monk's problems and they do need a massive buff. But this is the BLM vs Bard thread.

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I'm sure you think you said something there. But you really didn't. Unless you really did just admit that all this is - is just you not being good enough to out dps bards. It's not about "fair," it's just you and your feelings of inadequacies.

I know plenty of great BLMS can keep up and pass up bards during boss fights. So this truly is just about you.

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

It keeps coming back to the same question. How is that fair>? How is that good game design?

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tell that to monks lancers , but yeah is all about ME and MY JOB. that must be top dps

u want the best of every world

high surv : manaward , manawall , teleport
high dps : AoE and single
No MP problems
Good Limit Break : Meteorite
utility : sleep aoe. slow +heavy , resistance buff for the party (apoca)

and on top of that u guys want to do that on the move? sure, then we all can be BLMS and no1 will need monks lancers or bards (well maybe 1 for requiem so the other blms can enjoy more dmg)

well honestly i wasn't saying it's fair just that's the entire reason behind it

something like changing "increased action damage II" to a different effect and removing the song penalty would probably actually boost party effectiveness and bard would still be comparable damage

really monk has so many downsides it should be the top damage, so much positioning and comboing, and buff maintenance required while also forced to melee for the worst damage of the dd's is way off

Bards already have nerfs: Abilities that reduce DPS, LB that does no damage as a DD, and of course you are all ignoring the fact that all bows are weaker than every other weapon in the game (everyone had equal attack stats except for archers (yes, including healers and tanks), in addition to no unconditionally usable moves with higher potency than their level 1 move. If you are being out damaged by a Bard, it's because the Bard is a better player than you and knows how to work around all of his disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by arctic

I'm sure you think you said something there. But you really didn't. Unless you really did just admit that all this is - is just you not being good enough to out dps bards. It's not about "fair," it's just you and your feelings of inadequacies.

I know plenty of great BLMS can keep up and pass up bards during boss fights. So this truly is just about you.

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I actually know the rotation really well. I can explain it to you in full detail if you want? How about flare juggling? yea none of that matters when compared to the bards dps/dots on the move


The basic outline for the rotation is thunder 2 - fire 3 - spam fire 1 until you get firestarter or thundercloud procs (use fire 3 and thunder 3 respectively)
- at around 400-800 mp use blizzard 3- keep using this rotation. At the end you can add flare instead of blizzard 3 and then use convert to add more damage.

This standard rotation is so far away from the bard dps at equal gearing that its laughable. most end game bosses you have to move a lot... and you cant hold your procs for too long
without them expiring due to boss fight patterns.


The reason you start with thunder 2 is because the thunder 3 cast time (once again the cast times) is not worth the dot damage or duration when you can get thundercloud later.

I can already see Bard being nerfed because people keep bitching about it. Anytime a large portion of people bitch, something gets nerfed.

Summoner does the highest dps and overall damage in the game FYI.