Threads starting to sound like my Tech Support job.

SE didn't exists during the nes days
That was Squaresoft not SE, the people that make final fantasy these days had very little if not nothing to do with 1 to 9 and games like Chrono Trigger.
The merge of the two companies had to do with the spirits with in being a financial miss step.
I haven't see SE matching the quality of the old Square Soft games, must have something to do with their designers moving to other companies.
One of them being Monolith soft.


Another thing is thatI honestly believe devs like their fans and see them as people, and most of us do the same.
These are people that have a heart for games.
How ever a manager doesn't look like games like that, those times are long gone in the gaming industry.
They are also the ones deciding about the $$$, which translates into customer support/content/quality servers and the list goes on.
If people accept the lowest quality they will just lower the bar until the game stops selling or they get to much flak,usually the developer is going to lose his job though.

If anything most of the times the higher ups don't show any respect to their customers or the devs, so I ask you why should we?


remember in Tera EU we where promised not to have censored, except just for launch they ninja censored the blood and stated they will censor anything because of German laws.
After people giving them a lot of negative press they where more than eager to sort it and remove the censor.


As said being a dev or the guy at the phone blows, since the jokers higher up will make your job a hell.
These guys are also responsible for destroying good IP's.
On the other hand quick cash grabs does earn a lot and well why keep an IP if you can milk it and jump to the next?

By the time stuff is going bad their pockets are filled, welcome to the real world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sixmp

Maybe that is the problem then. People do not see the people behind the logo. People work for companies. People make the games and deal with the problems. Nobody talks to the logo.

---

Its not that we don't see the people... employees literally hide behind the company logo... It's the nature of corporations.

People don't understand that they remade an ENTIRE game in 2 years. Most of the issues people have brought up are noted as being addressed in 2.1. The problem with the community is lack of patience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kantide

People don't understand that they remade an ENTIRE game in 2 years. Most of the issues people have brought up are noted as being addressed in 2.1. The problem with the community is lack of patience.

---

Actually.... Most of these problems have been ongoing since FFXI... Since FFXIV 1.0 Alpha/Beta/launch... since 1.23

It's because we are living in the last days. Many people will fall from the faith and because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. The wicked will grow more wicked, deceiving and being deceived. Because lawlessness is increased (in their hearts), most people's love will grow cold.

Agree with the OP. That said, I concur with a couple other posts that also pointed out the forums really aren't as toxic as they could be. Diablo 3, upon launch, is the one that comes to mind for being the worst in recent memory (and that one deserved the flak, too). The vitriol directed at SE on these forums pales in comparison to what people acted like towards Blizzard.

One more thing, though - it is a little bit beside the point to mention what people are happy with in the past, vs. happy with in the present. Expectations are certainly allowed to change. As advances are made, it's very reasonable to expect companies to learn from those advances, and provide similar levels of quality. I think the paranoia over the PS3 is a little bit premature (not necessarily misplaced, just premature), but there are many valid complaints, too. It's not unreasonable to expect SE to be able to match the standards multiple other companies have set without much issue. They have generally done so, of course, but people are OK to criticize areas where they haven't, is all I'm saying.

Edited to remove the stupid character limit.

Yes, this game has flaws. Getting hit by AoE's when truly out of range of it sucks immensely. Absolutely does. But i enjoy the greater part of the game, that is the story, characters, environments, My friends and yes, i even enjoy the gear acquisition methods for Endgame. It's most assuredly not perfect, but compare it to other games out there.

People complain about lack of 'Endgame' content, But really, What is 'Endgame' anyway? Think about it for a moment, really think about it. We have Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Bahamut, AK and WP, on launch. 6 Dungeons, if you count CM and TP too (For Tomes) thats 8 'Endgame' dungeons. Many games give you 'Endgame' in one or two Raids.

I will never understand the people who play an MMO for the sole purpose of getting the very best gear as fast as possible. I've always enjoyed the experience of the Raid and the sense of accomplishment at finally defeating it, for others its only about the shiny loot at the end.
For me at least, this game was never a "get one class to level cap, game begins farm the raids" kind of thing. The dungeons are fun. Leveling and learning a new class, becoming a crafter, playing with my friends and generally enjoying every aspect of the game is what i play for.

There are problems, absolutely but they are not as game breaking as the Forums would have people believe. Hell i cannot even think of one thing thats happened so far that made me think "Oh god this game will fail because this happened". And yes, I've had every error known to Eorzea, But i do not care, because the game is fun.

I use to work customer service for Uhaul and I agree completely. It takes time to fix stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSWBeef

I use to work customer service for Uhaul and I agree completely. It takes time to fix stuff.

---

It doesn't take any time for them to take our money
Release a stable product and that might be applicable

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

It doesn't take any time for them to take our money
Release a stable product and that might be applicable

---

Im sorry if you think this was gonna be a perfect release. If you are wary about any game release what so ever then wait. You bought the game, they didnt force you. And they made no promise it was gonna be perfect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSWBeef

Im sorry if you think this was gonna be a perfect release. If you are wary about any game release what so ever then wait. You bought the game, they didnt force you. And they made no promise it was gonna be perfect.

---

I guess releasing a game isn't a promise that people will be able to, I don't know.. Actually play it at release.
I'm clearly being irrational. My bad

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

This is a bad analogy because when you bought the first Final Fantasy you could actually play it when you got home.

---

If you were lucky or persistent, this was the original NES we are talking about here, I never into'd the Japanese versions of the hardware from those days, was the Famicom a more stable machine?

Nobody expects people not to complain. Just to remember that the person receiving the complaint is human too. It isn't like the phone numbers we get or forums are direct lines to "the men upstairs".

So try and do it in a polite and constructive manner. Upsetting the people running the forums isn't going to fix the problem any quicker.
Lets try to make this forum a nice place to be where you want to visit all the time, instead of just when there is something to complain or report.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sixmp

Nobody expects people not to complain. Just to remember that the person receiving the complaint is human too. It isn't like the phone numbers we get or forums are direct lines to "the men upstairs".

---

I don't think that's true. Not to excuse rudeness but the devs just get summaries of our posts. You can absolutely believe that they don't get word for word translations.

In short, no devs feelings were hurt in the making of this forum

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...86#post1290186

Just thought i would put this here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

Another "People should stop being mean to the multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation" thread

---

I'm not going to stick up for SE - I've been less than impressed with most of their products since the merger, but do you really think Yoshi and the other devs are just crunching numbers? I don't know about you, but I've poured through countless letters from the producer, and watched that video where Yoshi broke down in tears... And I just don't understand how you fail to see the passion these guys have brought to the dev team for the sake of a game that we love.

Without the "multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation", there would be no FFXIV for you to whine about, so maybe that's a victory in your book, but it's a pretty common thing for someone with no contributions of his own to tell others to stop creating.

TL;DR: Yes, corporations are sociopathic and don't deserve sympahy, but many of the people that work for them do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by minihalcyon

I'm not going to stick up for SE - I've been less than impressed with most of their products since the merger, but do you really think Yoshi and the other devs are just crunching numbers?

---

I'm actually a writer. It's what I do for a living. I wont go into detail, but suffice it to say, this endeavor is MUCH MUCH MORE business than it is art, and to think otherwise would be foolish.
First (and foremost), when one person holds the role of director (the person in charge of the artistic vision) and producer (The person that manages resources) then one of these roles will be compromised.
Secondly, Yoshi makes comments like "I've studied many MMOs in the context of retention rates," or...

Quote:

---

I think it would've been good if they tried seeing what happened if they turned World of Warcraft into Final Fantasy.

---

Or from this interview HERE

Quote:

---

Yoshida turned to the genre leader once more and thinks that the team should have played World of Warcraft for a year for inspiration, and added that, "unless you are a genius, you cannot make something completely from nothing.

---

When there is no artistry... (dare I say) no genius...
Then yea, you're pretty much just left with a business.
Even the story feels like a mash up of what they thought people liked from each of the previous Final Fantasy titles. And yes, most of the time it comes off sounding like poorly written fan fiction.

So yes, to answer your question, I do believe the dev team has just been crunching numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gauntduo

first game i have ever read forums in. I was huge into ToR and WoW, but never did I actualy go on the forums.

---

There is your problem. I played WoW for years, and have browsed their forums for just as long. This is nothing compared to those, especially in General. Just looking at it now, there are more complaints about everything under the sun compared to here. PvP, token changes, "lol pandas" (still), Brewfest complaints, raiders complaining that better gear now drops in new content, "casuals suck", faction rivalry, etc.

Very few players of a game go to the forums, and those that do generally are unhappy with something, so it's barely a large percentage of players.

Too much fluff on the posts, The OP is making an observation, one that's not wrong either, if you go and count all the posts on the first 2 pages, you really do get a factor of 90% whine posts. Personally I am looking forward to FFXIV and its growth. Ever since I was a legacy member I was always impressed with the development and improvements this game has gotten.

I agree with you OP. We need to realize that these whiners are part of our player base too. They just need to learn to have fun. In time I am sure things will improve. that is if we start behaving like a community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

I'm actually a writer.

---

That makes the rest of your reply quite hilarious.

To be fair, Artists are taught to study other artists that are more succusful then them so they themselves can improve and be succusful. As my digital media instructor once said, "There is no reason to reinvent the wheel if the framework already exists"

In this games case, he looked at succusful MMO's and saw what they had to offer for thier subscription fees. If the team did not provide the same services the game would not succeed. Reference is always a key part in art. As a writer I'm sure you have certain authors you feel you like to emulate or get inspired from?

And in reference to rabbitzero, Your probaly right, just not used to the flak that forums bring. I was under the impression they were for advice and tips and tricks for accomplishing things. Oh well, anyway the interview i linked he adresses the issues that people are talking about. I especialy enjoyed the Extermination comment on gold sellers XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yumeji

That makes the rest of your reply quite hilarious.

---

So glad I could entertain you

Generally that is the intention of forums, I think though much of what you are looking for would not be part of general discussion. which would more accurately be titled, Bucket of tears. It is usually just full of whiners. Though now that you mention it a Guide would be fun to make.

Whining about whining, is like vaquebooking. Passive aggressive, accomplishes nothing positive and creates pushback.

But it does show us in an ironic way that whining, although derided by many who hear it, is a human function for expressing dissatisfaction. We cannot be hypocritical and ignore that.

People will whine about this game, a lot. It's going to happen. Sometimes we might not think its justified. In those cases, perhaps we should use our energies to explain why we feel that way, and what the silver lining or alternative perspective on the issue is. In that way, instead of our reciprocal whining pushing onlookers to empathize with the original complaint, we can bring people to a different and more positive way of thinking. Maybe even convince the OP as well.

We're all human. Im in a good mood, going to a potluck. So just throwing this out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tricksy

Whining about whining, is like vaquebooking. Passive aggressive, accomplishes nothing positive and creates pushback.

But it does show us in an ironic way that whining, although derided by many who hear it, is a human function for expressing dissatisfaction. We cannot be hypocritical and ignore that.

People will whine about this game, a lot. It's going to happen. Sometimes we might not think its justified. In those cases, perhaps we should use our energies to explain why we feel that way, and what the silver lining or alternative perspective on the issue is. In that way, instead of our reciprocal whining pushing onlookers to empathize with the original complaint, we can bring people to a different and more positive way of thinking. Maybe even convince the OP as well.

We're all human. Im in a good mood, going to a potluck. So just throwing this out there.

---

Enjoy the potluck

I think the issue was about the Whine to non whine ratio. with them saying the true purpose of the forums is being lost. So it did touch up on whiners but also addressed that its becoming too common. Also if people excepted constructive feedback from their whine posts we wouldn't have posts like these where people vent the frustration of dealing with such behavior. Though that is just my personal take.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tricksy

Whining about whining, is like vaquebooking. Passive aggressive, accomplishes nothing positive and creates pushback.

But it does show us in an ironic way that whining, although derided by many who hear it, is a human function for expressing dissatisfaction. We cannot be hypocritical and ignore that.

People will whine about this game, a lot. It's going to happen. Sometimes we might not think its justified. In those cases, perhaps we should use our energies to explain why we feel that way, and what the silver lining or alternative perspective on the issue is. In that way, instead of our reciprocal whining pushing onlookers to empathize with the original complaint, we can bring people to a different and more positive way of thinking. Maybe even convince the OP as well.

We're all human. Im in a good mood, going to a potluck. So just throwing this out there.

---

that's interesting.
If I go to the grocery store and buy milk... Promptly take it home and start to drink it and notice it's spoiled....
Am I "whining" if I go to the store wanting an exchange or refund?
Am I "Crying" or "Complaining?"

Is this the only industry where a dissatisfied customer is subject to such derogatory names as "Whiner?"

Frankly, the complaints only highlight peoples desire to actually play and enjoy the game.
I would imagine someone who hates a game would just quit without saying anything. A forum post wouldn't even be worth the effort.
But People saying "I'd like to see X in the game" or "I'd like to see SE work on Y." These sound like comments from people who actually want to play the game and see it improve.

Frankly... SE's foreseeable errors with this launch could have been avoided, yet they were not. I think customers have every right to voice displeasure. Anyone who doesn't agree is clearly living in the wrong era.

Furthermore, even within the video game community, SE is one of the few companies afforded the luxury of unwavering fealty from it's subjects. Had EA or Activision Blizzard made SE's mistakes they'd be Jim Caviezel'd (crucified)
Hell, EA was voted worst company in America based on how it handled the SimCity launch. A launch, might I add, that was uncannily similar to this one.

Well they were not foreseeable and they started the plans for upgrading the servers when they saw their numbers in early access, numbers which greatly exceeded the Beta 4, free entry beta test. so really thy didnt know it was an issue.

secondly even if you have a legitimate complaint, its still a complaint because you are complaining. so yes.. going to a grocery store and complaining about the spoiled milk you bought, which likely had the expiration date right on the front of it. is a complaint and whining. will they help you? yes, as long as it seems legitimate. whining by itself is not bad, its the lack of a legitimate reason. If i complain to add something to my car, with no expense to me for the reason of, "it would be cool to have" is a illegitimate reason. to which constructive feedback would tell me no. for x,y,z, and V reasons. the problem is people do not accept the reasons and still complain. example if you went to the store you would have to prove you just bought it. with your receipt, why? because it needs to be proven to be legitimate before you will get support. so until you can give reasons or proof its legitimate it is just whining.

Yes it was voted worst company in AMERICA, I guess oil spills that killed wildlife and poluted a sea for years to come that was caused by cutting corners, and a bank illegaly foreclosing millions of homes so they could sell them faster is nothing compared to a "Bad game Launch" or "Mass Effect 3 crappy ending" that is my definition of whining. I simply would like research done first before exclaiming that someone or something isnt doing somthing. Like the interview I linked. anyway we can go back and forth on this all day. Lets be positive. Moving onto to bigger and brighter things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

Snip

---

It's not why they are doing what they are doing that makes them a whiner, it's how they are doing it, and alot of posts in these threads, i mean alot of them is certainly whining. There is nothing wrong with going to get a refund for spoiled milk but when you instead of going back to the store and saying you bought spoiled milk may I have a refund, that person goes in and demands a refund and ridicules said store for selling said milk, that's whining.

There is a civilized way of voicing your displeasure and then there are whiners, and from reading these forums, the latter is all over these forums.

And you gotta be kidding about someone who hates a game would just quit without saying anything right? I sure hope so!!!! Because that comment is so laughable.

Lastly, luxury of unwavering fealty from it's subjects? FFXIV was crucified for 1.0 in case you havent forgotten.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noata

Well they were not foreseeable

---

Because they don't have control over how many copies they sell?

Furthermore, if you don't like the food in a restaurant, you're not obligated to tell them what parts of it you didn't like or what ingredients could have made it better... I really think you're overstretching the obligations of the CONSUMER

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gauntduo

Yes it was voted worst company in AMERICA, I guess oil spills that killed wildlife and poluted a sea for years to come that was caused by cutting corners, and a bank illegaly foreclosing millions of homes so they could sell them faster is nothing compared to a "Bad game Launch" or "Mass Effect 3 crappy ending" that is my definition of whining. I simply would like research done first before exclaiming that someone or something isnt doing somthing. Like the interview I linked. anyway we can go back and forth on this all day. Lets be positive. Moving onto to bigger and brighter things.

---

The problem is all of those other things had legal repercussions for them. And those companies suffered IMMENSELY for that. EA, on the other hand has not had to reap what they've sown. They do what they do oblivious to whats right and haven't had to own up to anything. In that regard, they ARE the worst company

I have to agree with the OP here. As an onsite support person for a law firm, I was warned when I started that lawyers can be very intense when things go wrong. They are nothing compared to gamers. Everything for gamers is game breaking, even if it's not really. Does having to work through bugs and stuff suck? sure. Is it the end of the world? not so much.

As long as SE makes an effort to fix issues and shows they are making an effort then I'm more then satisfied. The payment issues right now for example, they acjnowledge what is going on, but don't seem to be working with Globalconnect to find a work around. That irks me and for many people is game breaking (since they can't pay to play). Everyone else who's encountering this or that bug in game needs to chill. If it doesn't actually stop you from being able to play it's not game breaking, it's just annoying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corea

As long as SE makes an effort to fix issues and shows they are making an effort then I'm more then satisfied.

---

This is one of the points I can actually agree with!

The customer is always right, so for people complaining about the complainers (complainception) deal with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

The customer is always right, so for people complaining about the complainers (complainception) deal with it.

---

Sorry but the customer is hardly ever right. I have worked in retail and some of the things customers try to do and think they are right would make the mind boggle.
I used to work managing petrol stations you would get customers trying to fill everything from plastic bags to babies bottles, they all give it with "the customer is always right" bit too.
As for complainception i think this thread is more about trying to get the games community together, rather than sitting about whining.

I mean if all you can add is some over used incorrect catch phase and some movie based over used clever remark then maybe should think more before you type.