Loose use of the term "eliteist"

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

Skipped Wanderer's Palace. snip

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I always forget about WP - your right you can use that to gear up for AK and primal HM's. Just CM is more efficient right now. I would at the very least recommend having an Ifrit weapon before entering AK. If you go into AK with nothing but your SM gear you are horribly gimping your group and making the run much harder than it has to be.

The only point to my post was to show some gear progression and not to just rush to hard content without at least getting some of the gear required and ruining others fun. If you are going to use the DF at least make an effort to gear up for what you are going to be doing. There is nothing about my post that is even remotely unattainable lol. Are you kidding me. You can get 2 pieces of DL jewelry for like 8 runs. even for the most casual that is a week of work for a few pieces of gear. The other option is to pay horribly inflated prices for jewelry on the market.

I don't have problems with Hardcore people but only with Rushers.

Rusher tend to...
1) Scream at you for watching cutscenes and being new to the dungeon.
2) Scream at you for making a mistake
3) Scream at you and blame you for their own mistakes.
4) harass the entire party because they do not get their way
5) Brag about being Hardcore when they only leeched off of Better geared and skill players to get themselves where they are now. (I've seen some already shouting to have people in their party to be better gear than they are or overly geared for certain dungeon runs)
6) Always want to be the first to get everything new so they scream at others when they have their first chance held back by a few hours because of any event that may hamper their time to be first.

Hardcore I don't have a issue with because they.....
1) Take their time with the game to be the best not to be the first
2) Keep fighting until they actually win not Rage quit when there is a lot of time still remaining.
3) take any weakness and turn it into a strength. (If they lack a gear they will work to get it covered before jumping into higher tier endgame or if they need experience they actually do trial and error through the runs and see where they go wrong and how to fix it)
4) doesn't constantly brag about having the best gear.
5) doesn't blame others for their own mistakes.

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Originally Posted by JyoonB

Obv the player isn't doing their job...
1) Joins football team
2) dribbles the ball
LOL. Your first post is aimed at gear, not being an idiot.

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In his defense, the two are often interchangable...

The definition of elitist is clearly that you have done the legwork to gear up for the content and want to succeed/clear it. Calling out people that are undergeared makes you an even bigger elitist because you're implying your gear is better than theirs (incidentally it is). I really don't understand why people are getting so worked up about being told they're not ready for some of the last pieces of content when they just hit level 50. Yes you can do HM Ifrit pretty fresh (easier for some roles), but getting your HM Ifrit weapon doesn't instantly make you a super star. Hit up CM/WP/AK and get your tombstones and some green gear like everyone else.

It is always great seeing a full team that made the effort to get their Darklight gear, and then you spot that one DRG that is in AF wielding his Ifrit spear... Hell, why don't we get a team together with nothing but Ifrit weapons and our AF1 and see how far we can take it? Probably not very. It is hardly elitist if you have invested the time to gear up, and don't want to carry people who feel/believe they are entitled to seeing all the content in the first few weeks.

To be told and to be screwed are two different things. To leave asap without saying anything is also bad too. Some ppl are just too impatient and bad mannered.

* I like the ppl talking during this timing though. More calm and well mannered.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

We are not elitists, we are gamers.

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An elitist (afaik) is a useless tool that causes drama over b/s that isnt necessary. In other words foaming at the mouth at other players who likely arent as well geared as they are or play as well. Those other players are usually doing fine for the content, both gear and performance-wise, but the "elitist" prick still whines and or talks down their nose. He/she doesnt actually care wether other players are doing fine ... he/she ego is so boosted by their digital armor and skills (they THINK they have) at following another persons rotation that they feel some god-like ranking among ants. Thats an elitist, in short, an egomaniacal tool that talks down to others because he believes (right or wrong) everyone should be performing as well as they believe they are.

Telling someone, politely, that they arent ready for a certain fight because of what you mentioned is perfectly fine. That is assuming you somehow have a dev confirmation on what is actually required... most dont. I should also add that thinking one needs to have gear as good as yours or better to defeat content when you, in fact, have no objective proof on the minimum req. does make you an elitist and an idiot.

Making fun, yelling, and/or picking on someone for the same reason doesnt make you elitist either ... it just makes you a prepubescent ahole that types like he has down syndrome and lacks the ability to form coherent sentences. (example: "lawl wtfbbqsauce u newb! y u sux so bad? l2p git sum better gear, herp, derp," etc)

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

When you hit lv50, if you've done all main-story and sidequests as well, your whole gear is white (except the AF), and you have some iLv47 items (a ring and bracelets if I remember correctly.

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i'm not defending the OP, as i also see some fails in his logic
however, you would be surprised to know that there are actually people who get to 50 by fate grinding and start doing AK with only AF gear, level 40 weapon, and 20-30 accessories
why bother with mediocre gear (crafted gears which you can buy, GC gears, and wanderer palace gears) if you can skip them and go for darklight instead?
you know, just like a carrier in a MOBA games

if you're asking for certain gear for lv 50 story dungeons, now that's an elitist

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Originally Posted by Kayo

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I believe the term you're looking for is 'douchebag'. It really seems like there are two major issues here (with the player base?). People will throw the term elitist on ANYONE who calls them out for being under geared. They don't have to even be a jerk about it. This was illustrated in another thread where an AF DRG found his way into HM Titan, and was asked to leave as he was severely under geared, and people came to the thread to accuse the person of being an elitist. Then you have those douchebags that have invested copious amounts of time in the game already and act like they are superior to everyone else because their gear is better, and give people a hard time because they aren't as 'leet' as them.

I've got a near full set of Darklight gear (woopdie-doo), and do I get annoyed when someone in AF1 and an Ifrit weapon stumbles into a Garuda run? Yeah a little. Do I get even more annoyed when this clearly under geared player also fails the mechanics, essentially making it one DPS less in a DPS heavy fight? Yeah, a little. Do I act like a jerk and rage at them for it, showing how superior I am? No, because I'm not a douchebag, and in reality, my gear is better. I don't know them any more than I know the next set of pixelated dots; how could I be 'better'(or worse) than them?.

Does this criteria make me an elitist because I expect people to put in the time to get geared for the content they are attempting, instead of stumbling into it because "I got my HM Ifrit weapon and now it is time to upgrade to the HM Garuda weapon!". Incidentally, we did almost clear that fight, but the other 3 DPS were in full Darklight sets...

When they add gear checking on dungeons/raids, these issues won't exist as much, because the circumstances won't occur any more, because if you aren't geared enough for it, you aren't getting in no matter how much you kick and scream and claim you are entitled to experience all the content because you bought the game and are paying monthly! (will be interesting to see who is actually around after the first month...)

The problem is far worse than this which you state in the OP.

The problem is like this... let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that you have a dungeon, which is tuned for a lvl 50 character with a gear level of around 60.
Now, people are not asking for lvl 60. they are asking for gear level 70, or even 80, because they don't wanna RUN the dungeon, they want to RUSH the dungeon roflstomping every enemy on their way in a mad speedrun to farm tokens as fast as it's humanly possible exploiting the content as much as they can.

And this is not a problem with SE, it's a problem with that kind of jerkish playstyle. Granted, SE could implement measures to prevent overgearing of content...

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

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AF1 gear and an Ifrit weapon is not under geared for Garuda. lol They should probably have a few DL jewelry pieces to replace their lvl 28 jewelry but that fight is super easy. Although you should probably be over geared if you are going to be pugging this as you will most likely be carrying at least one player.

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

AF1 gear and an Ifrit weapon is not under geared for Garuda. lol They should probably have a few DL jewelry pieces to replace their lvl 28 jewelry but that fight is super easy.

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Hey if the adds die before popping up in the middle to gib people, I don't really care, lol. Despite my, what some may call an elitist view, I am incredibly lax and don't get anywhere near as worked up as some people. If we wipe a few times, it is okay as long as we are making progress and learning. If we wipe a dozen times, and the same person is dying to the same mechanic every time, then my face starts to twitch a bit (Sheldon style).

As I said, it was one person with 3 other people in full Darklight gear, so the fight was getting done, but I'm not sure the DPS requirement would be reached if all 4 dps were in AF1 and Ifrit weapons, although I haven't tried it myself, so I could be wrong. :P

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

Hey if the adds die before popping up in the middle to gib people, I don't really care, lol. Despite my, what some may call an elitist view, I am incredibly lax and don't get anywhere near as worked up as some people. If we wipe a few times, it is okay as long as we are making progress and learning. If we wipe a dozen times, and the same person is dying to the same mechanic every time, then my face starts to twitch a bit (Sheldon style).

As I said, it was one person with 3 other people in full Darklight gear, so the fight was getting done, but I'm not sure the DPS requirement would be reached if all 4 dps were in AF1 and Ifrit weapons, although I haven't tried it myself, so I could be wrong. :P

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In our run last night in my FC we are slightly better geared than just AF1 but we did it without a problem. I was even using a lvl 45 vendor book for the fist run through, and my book dropped first run lol. But like i edited above running in a PuG you probably want to be a little overgeared if anything.

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

In our run last night in my FC we are slightly better geared than just AF1 but we did it without a problem. I was even using a lvl 45 vendor book for the fist run through, and my book dropped first run lol. But like i edited above running in a PuG you probably want to be a little overgeared if anything.

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Ah yes the joy of having an organised, coordinated group. :)

I remember doing some crazy stuff back in my WoW days with friends/guildies that you simply wouldn't be able to pull off with a PuG, even an over geared one...

Grats on getting your book; I got mine too after 4 DRG spears in a row ><

Personally, I don't see how being called an elitist is an insult. If anything it's a compliment. I strive to be the best I possibly can be, regardless of what I am doing. It's such actions that lead to success in life or a game. Success of having a college degree, a career, my own house, cars I own, relationships I've been in, etc etc etc. Just as it will be the success shown of acquiring my relic, darklight gear, level 50 crafts, and w/e else I set my sights on.

However I consider myself to be a tolerant elitist. While I have zero tolerance for players who are to casual to put an effort in on content past 1 wipe, I will help people who utterly fail at something succeed if they will let me help them. As such I except criticism when I am indeed wrong and teaching the wrong thing and I learn from that. I pugged Garuda with DF, watched the dps wipe for 90 minutes and I did it again and again until I got a group I could teach and we cleared it. I am not the rage out kind of elitist, I won't yell at people, curse at them, or say mean things. I try to provide positive feedback at all times.

How is wanting to play this game and not fail at it a bad thing? That's all eltism really is. I want to progress and clear content and acquire things, that's why I play and that's what's fun to me. As such I don't really appreciate people wasting my time, like failing on Odin because theres 200+ level 30's there and we can't see Odin to hit him...

The root problem to me is that most elitists give elitists bad names. Not all of us are bad plagues to the game. Some of us contribute to try to help.

Sad reality is, some of us elitists, sign your checks in RL. I'm not saying that to be 100% true, but eltists make the world go round. It's a click of society that exists just as much in RL as they do in games. But in a video game you can stand your ground, in real life they run you over (government, doctors, dentists, etc anyone on a high pedestal with a super ego). Some people are eltist pricks in games because they can be, and maybe they can't be in RL and maybe in RL an eltist prick rules them (a bad boss at work, the government, etc). People play video games for all kinds of different reasons. For some the psychological effects of a video game are healing, even if it causes them to be toxic to the game. For others the video game itself is toxic and driving them into addiction.

Nice flamebait there but I won't even give you the satisfaction to get worked up about it.
The question is, why are you so obsessed about how other people play the game?
Surely you must have a dedicated group of like-minded fellows with whom you are hard at work at clearing the Coil of Bahamut.
But no, instead you're here on the forums, spending your valuable time on verbal PvP.
If you're posing as an elitist, at least make sure that you belong to the elite.

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Originally Posted by Ryios

How is wanting to play this game and not fail at it a bad thing?

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Some players get upset about this though. You want to succeed, so you are a bad person IF you are unable to succeed with them riding your coat tails.

This is what I couldn't quite get. The fact that it didn't seem to be whether the player was under geared, or how the 'elitist' spoke to them, but the simple fact that the 'elitists' wanted to succeed and were unable to do so with them along in their 'less prepared' state, which in turn lead to the 'elitist' mentioning it to them. This person didn't even have to be an elitist, but just wanted to clear the content (and put in the time to adequately prepare in order to do so), and instantly becomes labelled as one and then demonized for it.

Doesn't it make sense for people to want to succeed? I think the problem is people want to succeed without 'earning' it, and hell, the current generation of MMOs essentially let this happen, so it is a bit of a shock to the system when it doesn't necessarily pan out that way for a change.

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Originally Posted by AxeIvy

The question is, why are you so obsessed about how other people play the game?

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I like this. There was a similar discussion a few days back when people were talking about min/max'ing and getting all their appropriate cross-class skills. Essentially you had the actual min/max'ers that formed groups of like minded people, and then you had the 'wannabe' min/max'ers who expected people to have all the cross class abilities, but didn't have them themselves and were outraged/upset when they were outted/passed over.

Maybe there is a dissonance between where people 'think' they should be, and where they actually should be 'in reality'. This also occurs a lot when people think they are 'more skilled' than they actually are, and then blame things like not having 40ms or other players when they mess up.

Actually, I'm at work writing code occasionally skimming the forums like I do everyday I'm at work. I have a life too, I can't play 24/7. If I was at home yeah I wouldn't be on here right now. Just another example of someone labeling/sterotyping/assuming/excusing etc. Just because I'm on the forums doesn't mean I don't play. And no I'm not on the coil of bahamut I haven't gotten to that point yet. Wanting to succeed doesn't mean I have all the content clear, it just means I have cleared the content I've attempted or tried to. Will go fight Chimera tonight when I get home. Am I the best, hell no, but I try to be as good as I can be and eventually I will get to all the content, but I'm not trying to clear everything in one week like some people... I'm taking my time. As long as I'm ready to raid in Novemeber it's irrelevant.

First of all, I don't take orders on what words I should use from someone who thinks the words 'loose' and 'lose' are interchangeable.

That aside, it's not the requirement of basic skills that makes people call someone an elitist. It's the attitude with which it's presented. If I'm messing up and someone makes a friendly suggestion on how I should handle things I say "Thank you!" and then I try it.

When I'm having trouble and someone instead insults me and goes on a long tirade about it, I'm less inclined to take that advice graciously.

Don't try explaining things like strategy and common sense to Timmy, their brains aren't built in a way that they can understand. All Timmy knows is that he wants that cool looking armor and weapon too, even if he has to get every encounter nerfed in order to reach his goal.

I like the people who think people have issue with AF armor on Castrum or w/e. That's not the issue. If you have full AF + Level 48~ish gear on the other slots, you can do everything up to Ifrit and only someone who really has no idea what he's talking about will complain about your gear. I've never seen anyone in these conditions to be scolded for their gear. Never. I'm sure someone out there probably got a lot of abuse under these conditions, but that's not the norm.


The problem here, and that the duty finder item level restriction plans to address, is that there are people that somehow don't even have their AF armor on a level 50 job. It's not elitism to say "Hey, maaaaybe you shouldn't be doing Garuda with that bone ring equipped".

Yes, some people do have za skillz to beat AK naked, but not everyone is willing to believe that the random party member matched via DF is able to beat Titan with his level 40 weapon.

This is not an rpg. Show me how the combat is RPG? This has become more of an action game... Dodge, avoid.

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Originally Posted by moody

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I actually find your post incredibly fascinating, as it actually took me back to a scenario earlier in Garuda that wasn't going so great. I was mismanaging my mana, and had another Scholar go in a tirade about "The Pride of the Scholar", how one should never go oom, and how I was making Scholars look bad. This was also the reason we were wiping, and definitely not because everyone was standing in front of Garuda as she was being repositioned after adds spawned.

Suffice to say I altered my HUD so I could watch it more closely, and am definitely paying more attention to it now, but that could have been achieved by simply mentioning it instead of raving and driving half the raid group away. I think it may have been because one of the other members of the group asked if she was actually healing (oh no, not the elitist ego!) as she was always on full mana. In the end, the group broke up, and then next run we completed it without problems and the SCH book dropped. :P

I agree with OP.

Western Progression has single handed-ly killed mmorpgs.

And the biggest truth of it all is, because of how lazy people have become.

since when did being a good gamer that tries his very best suddenly become the hyperbole term Elitist?

This is no different then saying people that are hard workers at their job, and are good at it are assholes who dont deserve their job, but instead the lazy high schoolers that spit in peoples foods for fun deserve the job.

its simple really, everything up to HM titan is Pug/gear open a lot of these ppl fate grinded to 50 with very little core knowledge of their job or ppl have been carried to HM titan. I do think they should consider grinding a day or two on CM and AK to at least acquire a few choice DL gear and accessories just to be better prepared and even a few HM ifrit and garuda runs for weapon drops will help tremendously but getting on them for not isn't your place, join a FC and work together with ppl that are well geared for the fight.

its a PUG, you get what you get!

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Originally Posted by shadowrell_d-_-b

its simple really, everything up to HM titan is Pug/gear open a lot of these ppl fate grinded to 50 with very little core knowledge of their job or ppl have been carried to HM titan. I do think they should consider grinding a day or two on CM and AK to at least acquire a few choice DL gear and accessories just to be better prepared and even a few HM ifrit and garuda runs for weapon drops will help tremendously but getting on them for not isn't your place, join a FC and work together with ppl that are well geared for the fight.

its a PUG, you get what you get!

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It being a PUG doesn't make the people who go into end game with AF1 and bad accessory's any less of a lazy fool.

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Originally Posted by moody

First of all, I don't take orders on what words I should use from someone who thinks the words 'loose' and 'lose' are interchangeable.

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Just sayin' "Loose use of the term" is correct. People are using the term loosely.

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Originally Posted by shadowrell_d-_-b

its a PUG, you get what you get!

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So because it is a pug, you are allowed to potentially screw over 7 other players? The thing is, depending on the content, when it is one 'lazy/casual' person, and the 7 others are 'elitists', it isn't as big a deal, but what happens when 8 'lazy/casual' people end up in the same pug? "Oh shit guys, this won't work, better luck getting into a geared group next time!"

Some people are uninformed and stumble into the content unprepared because they don't know better. Gear checks will stop this as the game will say "No, you are not ready, go farm more tomestones". Some people intentionally attempt to 'slip in' unnoticed to get carried through cotent, while others feel that there shouldn't be any gear requirements and they should be able to do whatever they want. These latter two categories are the problem, and it is a poor attitude just as much as when 'elitist' act superior and try to talk down these players.

It really does go both ways, they're just on opposite ends of the scale. One group wants to succeed and puts in the time to achieve their goals, while the other wants to clear content because they are entitled to doing so; which group is better? And which group is the one demonized versus the one that is victimized?

These are obviously two very extreme cases on either end of the continuum, with many different types of players in between, but hopefully I managed to make my point.

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Originally Posted by Lelouch001

It being a PUG doesn't make the people who go into end game with AF1 and bad accessory's any less of a lazy fool.

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indeed, "THEY" are a lazy fool, this however has nothing to do with you especially if you choose to PUG a gear check fight like HM Titan. Last i checked you can't tell others how to play a game they are paying for! srry just don't work like that -_-

i happen to be full DL and i understand if enter a PUG i may be with ppl that are undergeared, i however wont bash them about it. SE has to be the ones to make content ilvl required not you with your ideal that someone at said content stage can't play it.

So should they be better prepared? (Yes) Do you have the right to bash them cuz they aren't? (No)

you choose to PUG deal with it or play the fight with your FC!

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

So if you're playing American football (a game) and you stop the quarterback on your team from catching the ball, and then begin drippling it, and go for a slam dunk, while trying to run bases that don't exist for a home-run, and you're kicked off of the team, is the person who kicked you an elitist?

I'm just curious how you turn "just play the game" into "you're not good enough"

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Fixed for you.

Though on topic, all I can say is that if an under geared player joins an instance then just do what any good person would do and simply explain to them what they need before doing it, I joined a garuda HM instance when I was undergeared and I had one of the guys there tell me I'm undergeared and simply left it as that, it would of been nice to tell me what I needed, instead what he did begin to do though was agro the boss just to get everyone killed.

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Originally Posted by DwightParkman

I agree with OP.

Western Progression has single handed-ly killed mmorpgs.

And the biggest truth of it all is, because of how lazy people have become.

since when did being a good gamer that tries his very best suddenly become the hyperbole term Elitist?

<snip>

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I wouldn't call him an elitist, I'd call him an idiot for the fact skill =/= gear, and his posts are all about gear. I've run into plenty of idiots in MMOs with rather high end gear that couldn't do their job in the raid/instance then me because they lacked the skill factor. Gear helps, it is not the almighty factor that prevents something from not happening if people lack any form of skill.

My point is, Skill =/= Gear and Skill > Gear. A top-tiered geared who lacked skill would be outperformed by a mid-tiered played who doesn't lack skill. This is fact from every MMO that came before this one.

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Originally Posted by LordSideKicks

To be told and to be screwed are two different things. To leave asap without saying anything is also bad too. Some ppl are just too impatient and bad mannered.

* I like the ppl talking during this timing though. More calm and well mannered.

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It's more about the lesser of evils. Leaving without saying anything is preferable to losing your shit with people. Neither is perfect. Sure people are impatient and bad mannered, that's life, but even those people can find a half-way point between the perfectly well mannered person they'll never be (I don't think they necessarily need to be, they're free to be who they are) and going on a tirade at someone (which they aren't entitled to do). It's a coping mechanism, taking a step back, walking away, etc... It's not perfect but if someone would rather just drop then say anything further or negative, I can live with that decision.

Since so many of you seem to have trouble understanding the word "elitist", let me make this easy.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitist

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e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
e·litist adj. & n.

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In other words, being a skilled player doesn't make you an elitist. Talking smack on the forums about how bad everyone else is, does make you an elitist. And there's no reason why anyone should feel proud to belong to the latter category.

You may be an elitist troll if...

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Originally Posted by tukuiPat

My point is, Skill =/= Gear and Skill > Gear. A top-tiered geared who lacked skill would be outperformed by a mid-tiered played who doesn't lack skill. This is fact from every MMO that came before this one.

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Unless there are gear checks, whether it be a certain amount of HP, expected DPS or HPS. As someone pointed out earlier, if a boss hits for 2k, and you can only heal 600 before the boss hits for 2k again, you're probably under geared/not ready. It doesn't matter if you're the best healer in the world; if you can't output the numbers, you can't output the numbers.

The problem is encounters like HM Titan do have a pretty hefty HP requirement, even with 3 healers. Getting hit by turmul (sp?) 8 times in a row for 700-800 a piece is incredibly painful, and if you don't have to HP to take a few hits in between getting spam AoE healed by 2 WHM and a SCH, then it doesn't matter how good you are at dodging everything else, because you can't dodge this. Of course if you have the skill and the gear than obviously you'll be far more successful than either of your categories. :)

Yes some games let you roll face and get (high end) gear; hopefully this doesn't turn out to be one of them.

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

So because it is a pug, you are allowed to potentially screw over 7 other players?

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No, not one part of my post stated that -_-. The fact is "YOU" can't tell another what they should have for content (even if you are correct). This isn't a matter of choice, that's what you are missing. When you decide you are going to PUG a fight that lvl you are essentially saying "im going to trust that the others that join are prepared for it".
If they aren't you do your best, if its not possible you reroll and hope for a better grp, this is what will be the case until SE adds the ilvl requirement to DF (something that should have already been added).

again its a PUG no heads up/ very little co-ordination/ little to no communication/ and people you most of the time don't know! and to add to it many of these elitists want to rush the content half the time.

how can you get upset about something when you knew what you were getting into -_-

I'll use AK and Titan as my examples.

Normal:

- Your gear is borderline and you have not done the dungeon before. I will walk you through the strat until you understand.
- If we wipe on an encounter and you have some/all of the blame, we can keep trying as long as you understand what you are doing wrong and are correcting it the next time.
- I will suggest that based on your borderline gear, you do Wanderer's Palace first (in the case of AK), but if you are an able player and can learn the strategy and get through the bosses, then I won't have a problem.

Elitist:

- I will not invite you to my group unless you have ilvl70 gear.
- I expect you to have done the dungeon at least 5-10 times.
- Don't message me if you don't meet my requirements.
- I will always blame people for their mistakes without offering constructive feedback.
- I will rage quit if you make a mistake.

The difference here is primarily the attitude and approach towards others, but also the elitist crosses the line between REQUIREMENTS and WANTS.

I understand that you may want someone with all DL gear, at least one piece of mythology gear, and their relic weapon for AK/Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, but in reality, you can get away with AK greens and skill.

Don't act like a douche when looking for people (/shout LFM only experienced players for titan, must have 10 wins under your belt and full ilvl70 gear. Don't message me if you don't meet these requirements). Did you forget when you were an inexperienced player trying Titan for example for the first time? Did you get treated the same way? No? Then don't do it to others.

I get you want to do a dungeon with experienced players. I get you don't want to spend time teaching others to do this and you want to farm the encounters. There is a way to communicate that without acting like a douche.

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

When they add gear checking on dungeons/raids, these issues won't exist as much, because the circumstances won't occur any more, because if you aren't geared enough for it, you aren't getting in no matter how much you kick and scream and claim you are entitled to experience all the content because you bought the game and are paying monthly! (will be interesting to see who is actually around after the first month...)

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Thats just it, we have no idea what the content was designed for. I suppose eventually we will, once they start gating it, but telling someone "youre not geared enough" now is kind of a shot in the dark. What youd really be doing is identifying them as the "obvious" weakest link and automatically concluding (by gear alone) that theyre not ready. Too many groups fail because they just simply suck at teamwork, aka that soloist "screw you guys, im just here for *insert role*" mentality. And no, a DF pug is no excuse to exclusively DPS, Tank, or Heal.

For all we know, HM Titan can be beaten with full team in AF1 (random example) and has been done to death by internal testers. Obviously there is a problem with it since theyre forcing it soon, but Im willing to bet there will be quite a few players out there who'll still be allowed to queue, that have been boo'd off the party for having the same gear. I really just hope SE really tests these limitations and determines the actual minimum gear quality needed to finish fight at their designed difficulty, and not the easiest one. As in the minimum gear level the internal testers were able to beat "X" content. If they can do it, so can we.

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Originally Posted by Evandis

You may be an elitist troll if...

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. . . you go into duty finder and expect a speed run

. . . you complain to players new to the instance that they aren't perfect

. . . you sound like an ass making a forum post whining about people who are whining about elitism

. . . you whine that people aren't skipping Praetorium cutscenes despite them being new and this being your eight-hundredth time

. . . you forget this is a GAME and a GAME which has MANY PLAYERS and forget that this isn't an RPG this is an MMORPG. Expecting the unexpected with regards to player interaction is expected, inherent, and part of the fabric of the game. If you don't like that, FFXV will be coming out someday just for you.

. . . you get angry at new instance players for sub-standard armor sets, somehow being completely ignorant of the "new" part of this sentence and expecting them to consult the almighty internet before they do ANYTHING

I'm sure I missed some, but those are what came to mind first :P

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Originally Posted by shadowrell_d-_-b

The fact is "YOU" can't tell another what they should have for content (even if you are correct).

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For the sake of argument, I'm pretty sure you can 'tell' people whatever you like. There are ways of doing things, and if you are going to straight out say "Hey X, you're under geared for this, leave now and get more Darklight gear" then you're going to get a bad reaction. But you can just as easily say "Hey X, you might be a little under geared for this, but we'll give it a shot anyway. I would recommend trying to get a couple of Darklight pieces before queuing again though". (For those interested, this is called hedging :P) You are still letting the player know that they aren't really geared for the encounter, but giving them a chance to acknowledge it themselves without ramming it down their throat.

Anyhow, I don't necessarily have the same luxury as some other players, as playing on the JP servers limits the actual pool of English players to roughly 3 servers, so there is a good chance I'll get pugs that are actually on my server. If I acted like a dick, it takes someone two seconds to post a comment to their FC and suddenly I'm ousted from any server based content. Not that this stops me from saying what I think anyway, it is just lucky that I'm not a complete arse hole :P But anonymity definitely breeds them; why be nice to someone if you won't see them again unless you randomly bump into them in the next run?

Also not sure if it was this thread, but I did mention how I'm far more lax about these things than some players (I guess I fit into Randalthor's 'normal' category), and I don't mind giving things a few attempts before it becomes painfully obvious that is isn't getting better/won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Kayo

Thats just it, we have no idea what the content was designed for... Too many groups fail because they just simply suck at teamwork, aka that soloist "screw you guys, im just here for *insert role*" mentality. And no, a DF pug is no excuse to exclusively DPS, Tank, or Heal.

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Oh I don't disagree, and there are no doubt people that want nothing but over geared players so the runs go by easily (half the time these are probably less geared players), however I do think a certain standard can be applied. As was mentioned earlier, a pug has less communication and coordination, so over gearing is never a bad thing, which kind of comes to your second point where people pigeon hole themselves into specific roles or 'attitudes' from the get go. There was a big forum thread on here awhile ago where a DPS player was raging about healers not having swiftcast. The healer had to have swiftcast, but he didn't have to move/avoid the AoEs; makes sense right?

I've always been a firm believe of skill trumping gear (exlcuding gear checks), but so many people have been conditioned to being rewarded for poor play that so few players feel inclined to improve if they do poorly, and blame things like latency. Latency is often a factor (and can be devastating for some mechanics), but then you look at their positioning, reaction speed and ability to adapt to changing environments, and it is simply horrible, yet they'll scream until they're blue in the face that it wasn't their fault, and it is server's fault for lagging, or SE's fault for making impossible to beat encounters if you are above 100ms!

Again, this is an attitude thing. The cognitive dissonance between 'thinking' you're a highly skilled player, and the 'reality' of how skilled you actually are conflicts so results in rage and shifting of the blame so you don't feel bad about yourself. These players are easy to spot and continue on being mediocre. It isn't until you accept that you can actually improve, that actually start too.

ps. Sorry for the long as essay, lol. ><

The OP's very thread is elitism in action by its very nature: "We aren't eliists, you are just bad."

Listen, you are an elitist POS we get that, but there still is no defending or justifying it.

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Originally Posted by ZyloWolfBane

snip.

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Incorrect since in this case the lack of helmet and pads would hurt the whole team. Just like an undergeared player does, especially in certain "check" scenarios like demon wall. Its like your star player forgetting his mouthpiece and not being able to play. Your whole team loses without you. Yelling about mechanics is one thing, people need to learn, but be considerate of your fellow player and atleast show up in something that gives you a chance at success and allows you to win once you do learn the mechanics.