Remove AOE Toggle

But there are people who want to stand there and just do one thing... ONE.. single thing...

I dont remember how many White Mages in FFXI have fallen asleep on a party.... but i remember I was one of them.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

yeah it is almost unlimited..........

i just love to see the lower ranked players trying to explain to the higher ranked players, which have learned the class, on how to play that class. this game does have roles. sorry some people do not think so because they cannot handle more than one role at a time, but it is a fact. when in party i am the one that buffs and keeps buffs up, keeps dot's up, keeps the members alive, joins battle regimens to keep debuffs on the mobs, along with other things. there is no role for someone that sits and heals only. quite frankly i have just as many responsibilities as the battle class does in the party and have even more responsibilities than that.

there is nothing that the battle class does that i do not do in party, but there are multiple things i do in party that they not. if you can name even one thing that a battle class does in party a mage doesn't do also i will drop the argument. i am not saying it is a difficult class, but i am saying by far is is more engaging than battle classes are.

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Rank has nothing to do with it. What don't you get about that? The only thing difficult for you at your rank is NM.. that's it

Would bring a little more uniqueness to each class so I agree.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Rank has nothing to do with it. What don't you get about that? The only thing difficult for you at your rank is NM.. that's it

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oh nice just because you cannot point out even one thing battle does that mages don't do even though i pointed out many things mages do that they do not you take a personal shot. rank has everything to do with the fact that they have multiple things for a mage to do whether you agree or not at any level. the higher levels just have found this out already.

Sigh, people bringing up the rank argument. Do I really have to level CONJ or THM to 50 to prove that there is 0 thought to MP managing and you have pretty much unlimited MP? Do I have to do it to show that playing a mage in this game takes zero skill compared to any other video game? I really shouldn't have to, it should be obvious. I mean I have never seen a healer go OOM on our NM fights, or in any other fight in the game, ever. If you go oom you, and everyone around you currently must fail.

I've already gone over this, this game is easymode, every class is easymode, and nothing takes skill or scales with skill AT ALL. I'm sorry some of you people are in complete denial and in love with how horrible this game currently is, but most of it want it to be changed for the better, so we can have an actual successful fun game.

There's a reason they're completely redesigning everything about this game.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Sigh, people bringing up the rank argument. Do I really have to level CONJ or THM to 50 to prove that there is 0 thought to MP managing and you have pretty much unlimited MP? Do I have to do it to show that playing a mage in this game takes zero skill compared to any other video game? I really shouldn't have to, it should be obvious. I mean I have never seen a healer go OOM on our NM fights, or in any other fight in the game, ever. If you go oom you, and everyone around you currently must fail.

I've already gone over this, this game is easymode, every class is easymode, and nothing takes skill or scales with skill AT ALL. I'm sorry some of you people are in complete denial and in love with how horrible this game currently is, but most of it want it to be changed for the better, so we can have an actual successful fun game.

There's a reason they're completely redesigning everything about this game.

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do i need to rank up archer to show that it takes even less skill to play? my point was that there is more to being a mage than any of the other classes whether you like to admit it or not. i never said it was perfect, but did say it was more engaging than any of the battle classes.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

do i need to rank up archer to show that it takes even less skill to play? my point was that there is more to being a mage than any of the other classes whether you like to admit it or not. i never said it was perfect, but did say it was more engaging than any of the battle classes.

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We went over this in an earlier thread, lol. Everything takes little skill, I don't care if 1 thing takes a little more skill than the other, because it still sucks. Like I said before, if a roach tastes better than a spider, does that make it any better? No, same deal here, we need everything to be redesigned.

I'm looking out for this games future, and it needs to go somewhere good, because right now it's bad.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

We went over this in an earlier thread, lol. Everything takes little skill, I don't care if 1 thing takes a little more skill than the other, because it still sucks. Like I said before, if a roach tastes better than a spider, does that make it any better? No, same deal here, we need everything to be redesigned.

I'm looking out for this games future, and it needs to go somewhere good, because right now it's bad.

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but as i stated i think it is more of the ease of mobs at this point is the only reason for not having a full time healer. once the redesign is implemented if the mobs get harder to defeat then i would agree with it, but at this point there is no need for that change. all i was stating was at this point they have many changes in store and afterwards they may need single/aoe individualized spells and a dedicated healer but at this point in time there is no need for them so mages fill multiple roles inside of a party.

I don't like playing a specialized class, I've always played hybrids in games. SCH and RDM were the only mages I touched past subjob level in FF11, and SCH was my main. I love the design of having more things to do than just heal. However, I feel the design is flawed and needs to be adjusted. Good concept, bad implementation(this could sum of the entire game).

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

I don't like playing a specialized class, I've always played hybrids in games. SCH and RDM were the only mages I touched past subjob level in FF11, and SCH was my main. I love the design of having more things to do than just heal. However, I feel the design is flawed and needs to be adjusted. Good concept, bad implementation(this could sum of the entire game).

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completely agreed with that observation. it feels as though rushed and only half completed.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

but as i stated i think it is more of the ease of mobs at this point is the only reason for not having a full time healer. once the redesign is implemented if the mobs get harder to defeat then i would agree with it, but at this point there is no need for that change. all i was stating was at this point they have many changes in store and afterwards they may need single/aoe individualized spells and a dedicated healer but at this point in time there is no need for them so mages fill multiple roles inside of a party.

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Just a hint, go through your post to make sure it makes sense. I'm not here to decipher your text

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Just a hint, go through your post to make sure it makes sense. I'm not here to decipher your text

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i'm sorry you don't understand. let me dumb it down

at this point in the game no party needs a designated healer(someone that only heals)

after the changes are made maybe one will be needed then.

since they have no need for a designated healer at this time mages play multiple roles in parties.

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Quote Originally Posted by Wevlum View Post
Kinda seperate but at the same time on the AoE theme...It'd be nice if during leves/behest etc your aoe *only* hits the marked targets, i.e. behest/leve targets.

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That would make AOEing even more thoughtless, you'd never turn it off, lol. We want to encourage paying attention, not discourage it even more.

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Well I'm talking about jobs that don't have the option to turn it off. I don't agree with my archer being unable to use archer skills in a behest simply because all archer skills are aoe (unless you want to spam high stamina ones like shadowbind).

The only alternative is to take skills from pug and other classes. If I'm leveling on archer it's because I want to play archer.

People are thinking too much on extremes. My intention wasn't having AOE ONLY and SINGLE TARGET ONLY classes. What I was trying to suggest is seperating them to clear up some unecessary UI clutter and in the process injecting some much needed class uniqueness and strategy into the game (mainly thinking of casters, I don't even have a DoW at rank 1 so...).

I think a lot of the replies are getting stuck on my comment about opening up possibilities like Scholar, or other classes that are designed specifically as AoE classes. I know I suggested things like Archer and Lancer being AoE but I did not really intent for it to be ONLY AOE. That would be a major inconvenience. I was actually sort of thinking of RIFT (for those that have played it) mixed with FFXI. RIFT had classes that focused specifically on AOE and it worked because you could level 8 of the classes on each character. The system was built like a WoW - FFXIV hybrid, it was like the only good part of the game. I loved the idea of Scholar, and just AOE classes in general, even though they wouldn't be practical while soloing, they're fun to play in groups. But even these "AOE classes" would have single target abilities as well.

I would agree with all of the people saying that AOE only and Single target only would be terrible. But I think we should try and get away from thinking on the extremes. The current classes should have it mixed up, and down the line when they make advanced jobs or whatever, they can play with ideas like FFXI Scholar or RIFT Stormcaller. They can't really do this with the current system.

dont have time to read through all of these posts. dunno if this has been said yet, but adding -aga type spells would just farther clutter our action bar and limit the amount of spells we could use due to action points. the current toggle system is fine....how hard is it to toggle an AE on or Off, unless your one of those guys who keeps messing up and AE's everything >.>

I do not agree with OP, I have the xbox 360 controller [wired USB] for the PC. It works great! my X button does AOE Toggle, Emote list and battle regimen it does not take up a whole button by its self. Please leave AOE widget how it is. The controller and button assignments is perfect imo.

To me it's less about the button on the control or ease of the widget and more about being able to AoE everything with zero penalty right from the start.

I have actually had this discussion many times with my friends, and I have thought since day 1 the aoe system doesnt work. It makes things way too easy, especially for healers as I would rather have many different healing spells, some unique and some have aoe (higher mp cost, higher enmity).

The idea that turning on aoe does nothing to the spell always seemed idiotic to me. If your going to have an aoe feature and not specific aoe spells than at least make it like in 9 and 6 where turning aoe on halved the potency.

Healing with specific single/aoe spells would make things so much more fun instead of just aoe cure III over and over.

Let me ask a question to ppl who play CON/THM would you ever turn off AOE cure? It makes it VERY hard to balance spells when the same spell can cure 1 person for 600hp or cure 8ppl for 600hp. Nuke 1 mob for 300dmg or nuke 20 mobs for 300dmg, its significantly simpler to have different version of the spells and remove the aoe button. Also this plays into the job uniqiness factor where rather then having certain jobs with access to the aoe versions and even a future battle class mage access to specific aoe versions but not the current blanket style of either the job can AOE everything or nothing. right now its not as apparent of the problems but with a few more mage classes or worse a mixed battle/mage you are going to see the limitations are worse then it would appear now.

Agree. buff spells should have no single target version they should all be AoE.

It's so annoying to cast Protect and only cast it on yourself then being locked out from recasting it for a minute.

Replace protect with protectra, shell with shellra etc etc..

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Originally Posted by Choc

I have actually had this discussion many times with my friends, and I have thought since day 1 the aoe system doesnt work. It makes things way too easy, especially for healers as I would rather have many different healing spells, some unique and some have aoe (higher mp cost, higher enmity).

The idea that turning on aoe does nothing to the spell always seemed idiotic to me. If your going to have an aoe feature and not specific aoe spells than at least make it like in 9 and 6 where turning aoe on halved the potency.

Healing with specific single/aoe spells would make things so much more fun instead of just aoe cure III over and over.

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of course it makes it too easy if you only heal. if you want a challenge turn it off and let half your party die then see how fast you get kicked out of a party. a mage does not have healing only as a role in party unless you are main healing an off tank by themselves.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

of course it makes it too easy if you only heal. if you want a challenge turn it off and let half your party die then see how fast you get kicked out of a party. a mage does not have healing only as a role in party unless you are main healing an off tank by themselves.

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No offense but this mentality only applies to solo games. In MMORPGs every member of a successful raid has a specific role they need to perform. Generally it's "healer", "dps", or "tank". Sure, healers might have to toss debuffs or buffs up, dps might have to do the same, or possibly offtank in emergencies, and sure tanks might have to do a little dps if they don't have to tank anything at that moment, but everyone has a specific role that the raid leader can rely on.

Without specific designated roles, you have a situation where nobody is unique and there's little strategy in group content. Healers need to heal first and foremost. DPS should generally be the ones to first apply debuffs, if they fail then the healer can try, but the healer should ideally be just healing.

Seperating the spells would fix the issue of healers never having to turn AOE off because there is literally no reason to. The feature is utterly useless if you're a healer and if you're a DPS it's just annoying.

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Originally Posted by Ava

No offense but this mentality only applies to solo games. In MMORPGs every member of a successful raid has a specific role they need to perform. Generally it's "healer", "dps", or "tank". Sure, healers might have to toss debuffs or buffs up, dps might have to do the same, or possibly offtank in emergencies, and sure tanks might have to do a little dps if they don't have to tank anything at that moment, but everyone has a specific role that the raid leader can rely on.

Without specific designated roles, you have a situation where nobody is unique and there's little strategy in group content. Healers need to heal first and foremost. DPS should generally be the ones to first apply debuffs, if they fail then the healer can try, but the healer should ideally be just healing.

Seperating the spells would fix the issue of healers never having to turn AOE off because there is literally no reason to. The feature is utterly useless if you're a healer and if you're a DPS it's just annoying.

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no try getting your mage up and get in a high level party or nm battle. this applies to the roles mages play in THIS game.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

no try getting your mage up and get in a high level party or nm battle. this applies to the roles mages play in THIS game.

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And THIS game also has a known broken class system. :)

I don't need to be level 50 when the only content in the game right now is bandage solutions for the severe lack of things to do.

no people complain things are broken without learning how to properly play with a new system. i am not saying the system is perfect by any means, but it only needs tweaks, but people complain because they can only think enough to do one thing at a time have caused easy game 101 aspects to be implemented. as stated many times in this thread and many others with how easy the mobs are there is no need for a designated healer. that is not the battle system, but the lack of challenging in game content to have this role.

i can go to most nm's as the only healer. cast debuffs, cast dot's, keep buffs on party, keep the party healed, and assist in battle regimens. this is against the high level nm's. if the high level content doesn't need a pure designated healer in most situations why would the low end stuff need one? you get into a party and go into battle after finding out what your role is in the battle.

it is alot easier in party asking the mages who has tier 2 buffs and setting them as original buffer than it is waiting for hours trying to find a certain party member. that is the good thing about being able to fill multiple roles with one member. if they have enough mages or have different battle tactics you define the roles for the members then. you do not go in without deciding which role a member will play. you have a defined role in the party, but you can fill additional roles as needed with the people already in instead of having to wait to find the one class with what you need.

I am opposed to the AoE toggle function. I use the Keyboard at this point. I think that AoE toggle should be exchanged for -ga spells. As conj. I want to be able to AoE heal one second and then cast fire without aggroing every enemy in the area. Then, I could macro in my single target spells and AoE target spells; I would be content. This system of single target and -ga spells did work well in FFXI after all.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

no people complain things are broken without learning how to properly play with a new system. i am not saying the system is perfect by any means, but it only needs tweaks, but people complain because they can only think enough to do one thing at a time have caused easy game 101 aspects to be implemented. as stated many times in this thread and many others with how easy the mobs are there is no need for a designated healer. that is not the battle system, but the lack of challenging in game content to have this role.

i can go to most nm's as the only healer. cast debuffs, cast dot's, keep buffs on party, keep the party healed, and assist in battle regimens. this is against the high level nm's. if the high level content doesn't need a pure designated healer in most situations why would the low end stuff need one? you get into a party and go into battle after finding out what your role is in the battle.

it is alot easier in party asking the mages who has tier 2 buffs and setting them as original buffer than it is waiting for hours trying to find a certain party member. that is the good thing about being able to fill multiple roles with one member. if they have enough mages or have different battle tactics you define the roles for the members then. you do not go in without deciding which role a member will play. you have a defined role in the party, but you can fill additional roles as needed with the people already in instead of having to wait to find the one class with what you need.

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My point is the content in the game right now is crap. It was designed to bandage fix the current severe lack in content. The battle system will be changing drastically and class changes may come with it as well. It was confirmed via player poll that the majority of FFXIV player (high and low level) do not like the current system and feel there is a severe lack of class uniqueness. You don't need strategy to kill NMs (great buffalo, dodore, etc) with a full party when there are players that can solo them. So your argument is moot.

Yeah, you can overcomplicate the currently simple jokes of NMs and go in like superman filling 3 roles on one character and say combat is complex and you need to be able to do everything at once, but the reality of it is, this is why the system doesn't work. No MMORPG on the planet has a system like this because it simply doesn't work. Players need strictly defined roles or there is no point in strategy, removing AOE toggle would just be one step closer to that goal, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Ava

My point is the content in the game right now is crap. It was designed to bandage fix the current severe lack in content. The battle system will be changing drastically and class changes may come with it as well. It was confirmed via player poll that the majority of FFXIV player (high and low level) do not like the current system and feel there is a severe lack of class uniqueness. You don't need strategy to kill NMs (great buffalo, dodore, etc) with a full party when there are players that can solo them. So your argument is moot.

Yeah, you can overcomplicate the currently simple jokes of NMs and go in like superman filling 3 roles on one character and say combat is complex and you need to be able to do everything at once, but the reality of it is, this is why the system doesn't work. No MMORPG on the planet has a system like this because it simply doesn't work. Players need strictly defined roles or there is no point in strategy, removing AOE toggle would just be one step closer to that goal, in my opinion.

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a player has a defined role whether you like to admit it or not. it may not be defined that because i am a con i am a healer only, but it is defined. just because you are supposed to do multiple things and can only handle one just means you cannot handle your role.

I agree with this notion. Remove the AOE toggle and make certain spells AOE and others single target. You had it right with FFXI... why would you change that?

I want to get rid of the toggle, but I don't want separate spells. Even if they were 1/2 the action cost it would flood your action bar. Instead, you should be able to toggle aoe at the most once per fight. Like a /command or something. The prompt is the real problem.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

of course it makes it too easy if you only heal. if you want a challenge turn it off and let half your party die then see how fast you get kicked out of a party. a mage does not have healing only as a role in party unless you are main healing an off tank by themselves.

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Of course my party would die if I turn it off...Why are you trying to comment on your superior skills and acting like nobody else knows how to play? Im not complaining that cure needs to be single target, im saying healing needs to be a little more hands on and actually require some level of thought. Obviously doing only single target cures would be innefficient with the battle system NOW. But why are you even arguing about this? The battle system is crap and is getting changed, thats a fact, people are expressing what they want changed and not how they want people to use the current system.

I never said that I only heal in a party, I throw up plenty of debuffs and tp attacks as well. I was talking about HEALING not that I cant debuff. If anything I would preferr a set role in a party. Make me a healer only but make it difficult and I would be happy, I know this isnt what people want, but some of us love healing in mmos. Its wayyyyy to easy in this game. Wheres my various healing spells with different costs/cast times/cooldowns etc?

Honestly why are you claiming everyone doesnt know how to play the class when the common complaint is its too easy.....how does that make any sense?

I'd prefer if offensive and defensive magic were toggled separately.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I'd prefer if offensive and defensive magic were toggled separately.

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I agree, again. I pretty much always want AoE Protect, Shell, Stoneskin, Cure, etc. There is no "curse" in the game yet so there's no reason not to have Cure AoE'd full time. There is a reason not to have nukes AoE'd all the time and with the action slot costs as they are it would be ridiculous to add separate spells just for AoE. If you're talking about removing action slot costs then that's a whole different topic, but I'm not for that either as it would probably turn into a generic linear RPG leveling system anyways.

I prefer the flexibility of the game. Anything that hinders that is a mistake in my opinion. Adding a widget for keyboard/mouse users or just keeping AoE toggles separate for offensive and defensive magic is a much more elegant solution than getting rid of action slot costs and adding separate AoE spells.

With AP costs? No way.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

With AP costs? No way.

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For all we know, they could do away with AP costs with the battle system changes. Or alter how they function entirely. The entire system is up in the air until the announcements next week.

As a mage, I like the fact FFXIV allows us to AoE everything.

What I dont like? The fact the widget is not always shown. So, example, if I wanna make a Sleep macro (instead than selecting it from Action Bar), right now I have to do 2 of them: one with AoE ON and one with AoE off.

Solution? Make widget visible even for macros or, even better, make it visible fulltime.

Umm teh same button you use to toggle aoe is the button you use to initialize Battle Regimens...what are you talking about? O.o

I support this idea. Different set of spells for the -ga AOE effect will be effective. I don't understand why we have a Toggle in the first place, since the idea worked so well in past Final Fantasy titles, including XI.

I agree with the OP. Give us -ga spells. The AoE toggle has to go. I HATE having to confirm every time I cast a freaking spell whether or not I want to AoE. It's another example of badly designed extra button pushing.

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Originally Posted by MewMewMeow

I do not agree with OP, I have the xbox 360 controller [wired USB] for the PC. It works great! my X button does AOE Toggle, Emote list and battle regimen it does not take up a whole button by its self. Please leave AOE widget how it is. The controller and button assignments is perfect imo.

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Originally Posted by Irana

Umm teh same button you use to toggle aoe is the button you use to initialize Battle Regimens...what are you talking about? O.o

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Just re-posting these posts since some posters in this thread seem to be completely ignoring the blatantly erroneous concern of the OP in their "moar FFXI in XIV" campaign. In addition, I will also add to the voice of reason and confirm I also have no trouble with the AOE toggle button taking up space as the button functions perfectly fine in its other uses when not selecting a spell on your hot bar.

Situation as described by OP is false and a non-issue. This thread should be renamed to: Mages are OP so please remove AOE toggle. Or if you prefer: I liked FFXI, so please make spells just like that game. Call a spade a spade.