If you are a [JOB] without [Ability], you are holding back your team at endgame

It seems a lot of people are in the same situation, for me, I am leveling LNC to 34 and MRD to 26 for the abilities to use with MNK.

I however find it quite painful to level two jobs I have no interest in, however, as also said earlier, it does improve performance (when used correctly ). It also can, depending on the job, add more utility and situation dependent skills to use. I have to grin and bear it, like I did in FF11 :).

For MNK though: Rupture, Blood for Blood, Invigorate

I think whether you get cross class skills ultimately depends on what you want your focus to be in game. You can probably get away with not having some of the more essential cross class skills (Blood for Blood, Invigorate, Swiftcast, etc.) if you don't plan on doing much past Garuda.

However, for fights like Titan and beyond, having these skills helps bolster your group a lot. I can also see people being left in the cold because if you compare someone who has their cross class skills vs. someone who doesn't, there is quite a good chance that the person with those extra skills will tank better/do more damage/heal better.

Nature of the game is to level more than one class/job anyways :)

Edit: I should be clear, as a leader of a Free Company that does Coil (currently on Turn 4), which you may not want to level a class to get a skill that may seem essential, it is not my duty to take you to a raid when you are potentially hurting us all on fights that can be rather demanding. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

***Edited the post to reflect what others have mentioned throughout the thread. Mantra is definitely a 'long haul' skill, but it has been mentioned that it would definitely help with efficiency during some of the more healing intensive, or rather, damage intensive moments. And of course, I don't have experience with all classes, so I may have some things wrong. Alternatively you can head over to ffxivinfo.com and look up the job ini question, and it will tell you which cross-skills are available.

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Actually I think your list is way wrong. You're ignoring the fact that we're limited in off skill slots, and a lot of the skills you list are just absolutely not worth slotting over other useful things.

A SCH doesn't need stoneskin. The only time it's really remotely useful is when speed running AK for that extra buffer of health on the tank. It's basically pointless in a 8 man because you will, or should, have a WHM.


No one needs to get MRD to mercy stroke. Mercy stroke is such a meager addition to your appreciable dps that it's a joke. A 200 potentcy attack on a 90 second cooldown is so meager it's hardly worth mentioning. Not only that it can only be used when the target is below 20% health. Most bosses don't spend over 2 minutes below 20% health, which means you end up getting 1 hit of 200 potency out of it during a fight - completely pointless. Trying to time a kill with it is also basically impossible in any sort of group setting - it's hard enough solo.

Mantra is debatable. 10% additional healing received on a 120 second cooldown for nearby party members. This isn't something a DPS should be that worried about taking. For a WAR, it is more debatable. But you're usually better off with other skills, which makes the utility of leveling up to Mantra marginal at best.

A SCH will need to get THM to 26 to get Swift Cast.
A WHM will need to get THM to 26 for Swiftcast and ACN to 34 for Eye for an Eye,
A MNK will need to get DRG to 34 Blood for Blood and Invigorate.
A DRG will need to get MRD to PGL to 12 for Internal Release.
A BRD will need to get DRG to 34 for Blood for Blood and PGL to 12 for Internal Release.
A WAR will need to get GLD to 22 for Provoke and PGL to 12 for Internal Release.
A SMN will need to get THM to 26 for Swift Cast.
A GLD will need to get CNJ to 34 for Stone Skin and MRD to 8 for Blood Bath.

I think this list is more sensible and reasonable. You might argue that a MRD should get GLD to 34 for awareness. But at that point you're really splitting hairs over what you are taking into any encounter.

I don't quite agree on Mercy Stroke. Usually on a boss that is near death on my Monk I can get it to hit for ~500-600 as a crit, which is quite a significant bit. It even beats out Snap Punch, which is probably the hardest hitting Monk skill. And it isn't always a "use once" mechanic, I've found time to use it twice on quite a few fights, most notably Cadeuceus in Turn 1 of Coil.

Mantra is an amazing skill when it's from a Monk. When it isn't, it's kind of just a nice skill to have.
Also: You left BLM off your list :)

I play SCH and BLM, for sch you'll need swiftcast, NEED! For whm it helps also, swiftcast raise, swiftcast ressurection, swiftcast summon pet. ALL mages can equip eye for an eye, its a debuff on the mob that makes them do less dmg, you pop it on the tank, its acn level 34, I really think anyone who can cross class it should have it, which is SMN, SCH, BLM, WHM, all mages. I already had cnj to 38 pre 2.0, so I had stoneskin and protect already, I only see it useful if you're doing four man and you're the only healer. 8 man I prefer one sch one whm, instead of two whm or two sch. It saves both of our mp if we just do little adloquidium and cures together.

PLD its less important what you get from MRD, but WAR needs GLA abilities a little bit more, since they have a lack of dmg negation. Either way if you're career tanking its smart to just get both to 50 that way whatever people need, you can tank it. (My boyfriend is a career tank so I'm taking a lot of his advice on this, but I don't know all the specifics). On pld you'll cure yourself for pathetic numbers, but cure is level 2, so no excuse not to have it, I can't really see how efficient stoneskin is since you might need mp for a flash and your mp pool is pathetic.

In all honesty, it's no problem if some players don't want to maximize the effectiveness of their class/job by unlocking cross-class abilities. That's your prerogative and is absolutely acceptable. Where the conflict comes in is if you are of that attitude, but still want to participate in the most challenging content a game offers. Just remember, that if someone is putting together a group for challenging content and have the option to bring someone that does have a more optimized character it is also their right to do so. It would be the logical choice for them to make (assuming all other factors are equal) .

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Originally Posted by MelianDoriath

I don't quite agree on Mercy Stroke. Usually on a boss that is near death on my Monk I can get it to hit for ~500-600 as a crit, which is quite a significant bit. It even beats out Snap Punch, which is probably the hardest hitting Monk skill. And it isn't always a "use once" mechanic, I've found time to use it twice on quite a few fights, most notably Cadeuceus in Turn 1 of Coil.

Mantra is an amazing skill when it's from a Monk. When it isn't, it's kind of just a nice skill to have.
Also: You left BLM off your list :)

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It's justifiable as a monk because there isn't a 5th skill to really cross class. Same with Dragoon. But it's definitely not great. Even if you crit twice, you're still talking ~1000 additional damage over what is around a 7 minute fight.

It works out to ~2 additional DPS. Yes, it's more than nothing, but it really isn't something that is really necessary to go out of your way for. Yes reducing it to dps is a little 1 dimensional because of where the DPS comes, but the point is it's hardly a necessary skill. Comparing it to say, Blood for Blood or Internal Release and it isn't even in the same ballpark.

Maybe I went overboard with saying it is completely pointless, but my point is that it's definitely not a necessary cross class skill. Not like Swiftcast, or Blood for Blood, or Provoke, etc.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

A BRD will need to get DRG to 34 for Blood for Blood and PGL to 12 for Internal Release.

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You're already gonna be level 15 on PGL to be a BRD in the first place, so posting about PGLs level 12 ability is pointless.

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Originally Posted by MelianDoriath

I think whether you get cross class skills ultimately depends on what you want your focus to be in game.

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This was kind of the point I was going for. Not everyone has to min/max, but they also have to be aware that min/max'ers will likely want to play with other min/max'ers to optimize their play. There is definitely a place where having the cross-skills will have a far greater impact, if not be a necessity (ie Bahumut's Coil), but not everyone is aiming for that content, and if they are with no intention of min/max'ing, then they are in for a shock and need to rethink their position.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

-snip-

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Haha yeah I can't say I've played every class, and I apologize if I gave the impression that I had, or that I knew everything. I definitely agree that your list is far more reasonable, and the Mantra thing was mentioned else where in the thread as a 'not overly necessary but can potentially help' thing for most (all?) classes that could get it.
I am maining SCH at the moment, and to be honest there are few skills I'd consider crucial to have. In a raid scenario (ie WHM present) your protect is undervalued as will stoneskin, and that leaves you with Sure Cast and Swift Cast. Stone Skin was ideally for 4mans, which you pointed out isn't overly necessary, but what other cross-skill would you put on your bar? Even with 5 slots, these 4 seem like the only viable ones, although I guess you can add Cleric Stance if you want to add DPS during fights, but it seems like a waste of mana.

Some classes/jobs definitely have more cross-class skills available to them, but at glance, only 3-4 out of the 5 seem to 'really' be necessary/worth having. This isn't to say that Mercy Stroke, which many people have pointed out is essentially worthless, should be tracked down to fill that last slot, but I'm unsure where the limited cross-skill slot part comes into the argument when people only seem to be taking 2 or 3 anyway as 'must haves'.

Either way I'll put your list over the one I put together. The thread/list basically started due to the other thread calling out WHMs that didn't have Swift Cast (yet) and how they were 'holding up endgame' (which I highly doubt was any beyond titan) when the OP didn't have his cross-skills either, and got up them because he derped and died to mechanics he shouldn't have.

As a fresh level 50 BLM, my highest priority is getting Archer and Arcanist to 34 to maximize my ability potential.

I believe the people who complain about this the most ARE the people that are aiming for BCOB. Leave them be, dey needz to b proz. If they're raggin on you for not having every possible class skill in the game, SOL and keep pressing on. They can easily ragequit on their own behalf.

Is there a list that goes over what each subclasses offer? Also, what subclass options are available for each job?

Thank you in advance!

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Originally Posted by Skarith

Every job can't use cure

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In fact, the only non-mage job that can use Cure is Paladin. The others can't use Cure or Physick (which is essentially the same spell).

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Originally Posted by Khalette

Is there a list that goes over what each subclasses offer? Also, what subclass options are available for each job?

Thank you in advance!

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The following link will send you to the BRD page on FFXIVinfo.com, however if you scroll down the page there are links that will take you to any of the jobs/classes. If you scroll further down there is a section labelled "Cross Class Abilities" which incidentally, tells you which cross class abilities are available to your job. I swear it used to say in the description what classes you were limited to pull abilities from, but you can put that together solely by looking at where the abilities are coming from (ie BRD can use ARC (base class) and LNC/PGL (cross class) skills)

Linky: http://www.ffxivinfo.com/job/bard.php

Hope that helps :)

As a very successful Warrior, I see no need at all to get the Paladin's lvl 22 Provoke. Why on earth would we need another enmity grab? Our whole thing is that we're better at getting hate and worse at mitigating it. We have Axe Throw, Overpower, and Flash (from the Paladin tree). As well, our 'stance' itself raises enmity AND our primary combo generates enmity. Unless Provoke is somehow proven to be the be-all-end-all of enmity skills, any other enmity generating skill will do.

Also, our Warrior skills unleashed by having full wrath ALSO get enmity. So yeah...

Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by dinantes

As a very successful Warrior, I see no need at all to get the Paladin's lvl 22 Provoke. Why on earth would we need another enmity grab? Our whole thing is that we're better at getting hate and worse at mitigating it. We have Axe Throw, Overpower, and Flash (from the Paladin tree). As well, our 'stance' itself raises enmity AND our primary combo generates enmity. Unless Provoke is somehow proven to be the be-all-end-all of enmity skills, any other enmity generating skill will do.

Am I wrong?

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provoke isnt for grabbing enmity is for grabbing it back. also as a pld as much as i would like stoneskin lvling cnj to 34 just isnt happening right now.

edit:provoke is also useful for pulling solo mobs that patrol halls in dungeons.

Well yeah. EVERY enmity skill is for grabbing it back. Axe throw grabs it back. They all do.

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Originally Posted by Zoeila

provoke isnt for grabbing enmity is for grabbing it back. also as a pld as much as i would like stoneskin lvling cnj to 34 just isnt happening right now.

edit:provoke is also useful for pulling solo mobs that patrol halls in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by dinantes

Well yeah. EVERY enmity skill is for grabbing it back. Axe throw grabs it back. They all do.

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What they were saying is Provoke automatically puts you at the top of the aggro table if you lose threat on a mob. Tomahawk and Shield Lob only generate so much threat so if the disparity is too far, even those are ineffective at immediately taking back threat on that mob.

There's not a lot to say on this. Part of the leveling is cross-class ability and getting to 50 isn't the whole game. I don't really need a melee dps job with a bard, but it doesn't make any sense to hit 50 BRD and not have LNC at 34. My job is DPS and that makes me have more DPS. It also helps counter the DPS loss when playing songs.

I do understand playing the off classes might not be fun. I find MNK more intriguing with my spare time but LNC is the clear priority. I also play around with SMN but I don't find THM that exciting. The only real problem to me is the classes aren't very fleshed out at low levels and you are back to 1-1-1-1-1 combat.

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Originally Posted by dinantes

Am I wrong?

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Yeah, kind of.

Provoke is useful in situations with adds where you don't have an aggro lead, or in situations where you have died and accepted a res.

Without provoke you will be tossing axes and chasing the target around trying to get off a Butcher's Block combo (which takes 7.5 seconds), and you may need 2 or 3 to catch up to a healer or dps if you've been ressed. If you can just Provoke and get it back to you instantly it makes it a bit easier and smoother.

Provoke isn't enmity generation, it's basically Taunt from other games like WoW.

Provoke and Tomahawk aren't even in the same league. If a DPS opens up on a target you need to die quickly as soon as it spawns (i.e. the flies with Demon Wall) you will not be able to get threat on it, and keep the other one off of the healer, without having provoke. With provoke, it's much more manageable to pick it back up and to keep threat on the off target.

It's not absolutely necessary if you play perfectly, but it is very good in many situations.

Provoke is absolutely necessary if you want to do Turn 2 Coil, quite possibly even Turn 1. Before then, you can probably get away without it.

By all means, if they've released something that shows that provoke actually 'puts you on the top of the list' I'd do that in in an instant. But I'll believe it when I see proof. Why on earth would a level 22 Pally skill generate more threat than anything else in the game? Seems odd.

I love people that state that SCH needs Stoneskin, it's so obvious they don't realize that SCH has built in stone skin on one single target and their AOE spell. But again, this just proves that others that demand a person to get something, does not know how to play the classes, so they dictate others to play they want them to, to pick up their own slack.

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Originally Posted by dinantes

By all means, if they've released something that shows that provoke actually 'puts you on the top of the list' I'd do that in in an instant. But I'll believe it when I see proof. Why on earth would a level 22 Pally skill generate more threat than anything else in the game? Seems odd.

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It does put you on top of the list, just like a taunt from World of Warcraft. This is easily confirmed by Turn 2 bosses which put stacking debuffs on tanks and provoke rotations are required to stop the other tank from taking too many stacks. So yes, it instantly catapults you to the top of the threat list, but you need your warrior skills (and possibly some gladiator skills) to stay there.

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Originally Posted by dinantes

By all means, if they've released something that shows that provoke actually 'puts you on the top of the list' I'd do that in in an instant. But I'll believe it when I see proof. Why on earth would a level 22 Pally skill generate more threat than anything else in the game? Seems odd.

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Provoke evens your enmity with the person at the top of the hate list, no matter who they are, which then leaves you to use your other hate-grabs to keep the mob on you. That's all it does, it does not actually generate any enmity.

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Originally Posted by ArashiDaigon

I love people that state that SCH needs Stoneskin, it's so obvious they don't realize that SCH has...

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Different situations dude. And no one is really saying SCH needs stone skin. I mentioned it, because out of the cross class skills, what are you going to use? It was also noted that in an 8man scenario (w/ WHM) it would be completely null and void, and when I went and replaced the list with a more 'no frills' version I did mention this. I've also been 50 on my SCH for awhile and have been doing 'end game' stuff (not Bahamut's admittedly), so I have a pretty decent idea of how the class/job works. That said, I haven't actually got Stone Skin yet, so I can't really comment on how 'useful' it would be (w/o WHM present). However others have mentioned how limited it's use is on a SCH, and as such, should not 'actively' be pursued or perceived as something required.

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Originally Posted by dinantes

Well yeah. EVERY enmity skill is for grabbing it back. Axe throw grabs it back. They all do.

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Yes, but provoke isn't good for anything else. Provoke only increases your enmity if somebody else has more; it increases your enmity enough to put you at the top of the threat table, but no more. So it is isn't any good at increasing your enmity lead (which all the other tools can do as well), but it's the best at grabbing hate back if you've gotten too far behind.

As a Monk, Blood for Blood from Lancer is a pretty important CD. One which I don't have yet, but plan to obtain soon.

I am a firm believer that if you don't want to level up another class you don't have to.

That said, as a SMN/SCH I can't express enough to ALL casters how insane Swiftcast is. The power and utility contained within this ability has come in handy more times than I can count. It was everything I could hope for in a Support skill and then some. I highly recommend anyone able to pick it up give it a try.

I find little reason to have Eye for an Eye as a WHM. Swiftcast is enough.

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Originally Posted by Blindfate

I find little reason to have Eye for an Eye as a WHM. Swiftcast is enough.

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Eye for an eye is garbage. A woefully underpowered ability that (even WITH trait backup) has a horribly long recast timer.

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Originally Posted by Thotor

BRD need to get DRG to 34 for Blood for Blood
SCH, SMN and WHM need to get THM to 26 for Swift cast.
WAR need to get GLD to 22 for Provoke

If you do not have those, then you do NOT have finished leveling your character. While it does not matter for AK, it is mandatory for every 8 man content.

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This ^

As a SMN i find myself Swiftcasting Raise a lot on titan to help the healers since they are busy keeping everyone alive. In the 8man content anything you think that might give you an edge you need to take as plain as simple as that.

It's funny reading this thread and the other thread about making gil. On one hand you have people saying that they should not be forced to do content they don't want to do (i.e crafting) but turn around and demanded people to level other jobs/classes just to pickup some skills. Bottom line if you are picky about these things group with your own kind and don't use DF.

If it can be completed without the extra cross-class ability, then you don't need it. Are they useful? Yeah, but at the same time if the content can be done without it, then it's not needed (as need implies the content can't be done without the ability).

I'll get Swiftcast for my WHM, and other abilities for my other classes/jobs, because I like to try getting all the tools I can. But if I'm DFing a dungeon, then I don't feel like I must have that ability or I'm holding back the group. After all, if the group had these rules, they should've found someone who agreed with them and gone in as a pre-made group with everybody on the same page. If they don't do that, not my problem (if they make it my problem, I'll just heal some different group).

I do agree it's useful, but I don't hold to the idea that these abilities are absolutely necessary to have. But as someone who has plans to level everything on two characters... it doesn't really matter in the end. :I

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Originally Posted by e90guy

It's funny reading this thread and the other thread about making gil. On one hand you have people saying that they should not be forced to do content they don't want to do (i.e crafting) but turn around and demanded people to level other jobs/classes just to pickup some skills. Bottom line if you are picky about these things group with your own kind and don't use DF.

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People are entitled hipocrytes, nothing surprising there.

No gil at 50! -> go use a doh to make tons of money :D -> No i don't want to i shouldn't be forced to do something i don't like!

Go get and level up something you absolutely despise cuz i say so! -> No cuz i wanna play what i find fun not be forced to do stuff -> lol nope you littleshit do it or ur noobinferioruseless.

Seriously disgusting lol.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

With FATE grinding you can get to 26 in a day.

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Fate grinding is an abysmal abomination. I did it to get arc to 15 and was ready to quit by 10.

It's as bad as XI's abyssea worm parties.

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Originally Posted by Skarith

I hear alot of people complaining when I'm playing scholar that I'm not using stoneskin. It's a level 34 conj ability, and we always have a white mage in raid so honestly it's pointless from a raiding perspective. That being said I do want to level swiftcast from THM for my summoner

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Doest the sch cure ability give a stoneskin effect anyway?

I say let people play the way they want. This is a GAME. Not a job. Seeing all these cross class requirement listings, is like looking at a damn resume. I totally understand and agree that certain cross class abilities come in handy for end game content, and as a BRD I will be pursuing my last cross class ability (B for B), but what I do not see the point in doing, is forcing others to play by your standards. Will I blame a WHM or SMN for not having Swiftcast? No, because at the end of the day it's their choice how they play their job not mine.

If you want to only group with people who have all these nifty cross class abilities, then do so. Because like everyone else, you have a choice to do whatever it is you want. Just try to be patient with the rest of the playerbase, and I don't know, show some humility and offer some help with useful information instead of bashing someone for not doing what YOU want them to do, and see if that doesn't change the game environment for you.

as a WHM I found it funny when someone yells "OMG you dont have swiftcast?, swifcast is a must!!!" and minutes before that person was just eating AOE's and such + dying to easy mechanics.

Swifcast is highly recommended to have as it can do things way more easier if someone makes a mistake... but its not a must.

First the job class, then there was the HP, then the weapon, now the gearscore...

It really is starting to become a resume. Next will be "Must have 3-5 Titan wins of experience."