Gil Issues @ 50

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Originally Posted by HealBus

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Originally Posted by WhiteGarden

There is no proof of this.

The fact is there are thousands of people doing fates and leves which generate gil into the economy. This is happening every minute of every day.

The small percentage of people who have a high repair cost have blinders on and think they should be able to do fates and leves to cover their repair costs (or worse, have dungeon runs give them gil for doing them). They don't realize that its the economy as a WHOLE which determines how much gil is being created. The gil sink from their repairs is actually very small compared to the gil created by those thousands doing fates/leves all day long.

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The problem is that the small percentage of people who have high repair costs are growing each day. After a certain stage the thousands of people who are running fates and leves are also going to be part of the thousands of people with sky high repair costs.

Doesn't help that by then the huge influx of Gil from quests will be long gone.

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You're correct, this COULD happen. But it is not happening now and it is just speculation that all players will end up grinding endgame and there will be no new players left. It could take months/years for this to happen. SE will slowly adjust. There just isn't any evidence to support that gil sink > gil creation from total players in the economy.

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

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I'd counter with this:

Your gym says you can't just sit and use one machine the whole time. You can't just take over the bike for 6 hours every day. You have to use some of the other machines (in the case of the gym, this is for the sake of others) or only enjoy a limited amount of time on that bike. Sure, you could look for a different gym that doesn't have that limit just like you could look for a different game. Why sign up to one knowing they have those restrictions if using the other machines is so abhorrent to you?

I know this is not a perfect analogy, but the base one of the gym wasn't perfect to begin with. I hope you can see my point with this: Just because you pay for a service from the company, doesn't mean you get to dictate the terms of the service. The game was designed to be played with a balance between crafting/gathering and questing. If you don't like the service offered, find another service.

Can you folks just stop with the analogies? They're pretty... well... they're making me sad to read them. :(

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Originally Posted by Dranosi

Well sorry to inform you. But cassual players are the majority of their income.

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True. Are casual players likely to have power leveled to 50 in the first week of the game's release, though? Are they likely to be grinding dungeons non-stop for gear?

While the players who are doing that shouldn't be actively punished for playing that way, I'm fairly sure they're not your average casual gamer.

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Originally Posted by WhiteGarden

You're correct, this COULD happen. But it is not happening now and it is just speculation that all players will end up grinding endgame and there will be no new players left. It could take months/years for this to happen. SE will slowly adjust. There just isn't any evidence to support that gil sink > gil creation from total players in the economy.

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When the majority on the forum say it is a problems. You know problems is at hand. You dont need a monthly graph to heard or read complains. Things are going badly fix it now, or get shut down. Appease the masses is how a bussiness
should be. Yes, some of you are good at merching, but most dont care about the merchant life and want to play for the fighting and loots.

Yoshida, Yoshida, Yoshida. This is a stupid arguement from all sides because he's already addressed how he feels about this stuff if you would just read his past blogs.

1- When asked how they would fight gil sellers, he said the primary focus would be on players never feeling like they had a reason to buy gil.
2- When asked about the general game design, he said this was going to be a theme park MMO. This means that everyone will be able to play as they like, as much as they like.

Clearly, these gil issues are just launch pains. Everyone getting into fist fights about HAVING to craft, or NOT HAVING TO completely jumping the shark. Just give it a few weeks. All concerns have been heard.

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Originally Posted by Dranosi

When the majority on the forum say it is a problems. You know problems is at hand. You dont need a monthly graph to heard or read complains. Things are going badly fix it now, or get shut down. Appease the masses is how a bussiness
should be. Yes, some of you are good at merching, but most dont care about the merchant life and want to play for the fighting and loots.

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No. The majority of players don't even visit the forums in the first place.

It's quite common for the most vocal people to be in the overall minority. It's called the "vocal minority" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_minority).


There may be a problem, but the number of people talking about it on the forums is not an indication as to whether the problem actually exists or not.



In any case, repair costs are coming down next week, I believe. That should help out the dungeon runners.

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Originally Posted by Tari-F

Can you folks just stop with the analogies? They're pretty... well... they're making me sad to read them. :(



True. Are casual players likely to have power leveled to 50 in the first week of the game's release, though? Are they likely to be grinding dungeons non-stop for gear?

While the players who are doing that shouldn't be actively punished for playing that way, I'm fairly sure they're not your average casual gamer.

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Wait, you think lving in this game is hard???? i can sit on 1 map and lv all the way to 50 with fate "but realistically would be faster to move to map with higher lv fate as u progress". But who are you to tell people what class they have to lv inorder to continue playing?

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Originally Posted by Dranosi

Wait, you think lving in this game is hard???? i can sit on 1 map and lv all the way to 50 with fate "but realistically would be faster to move to map with higher lv fate as u progress". But who are you to tell people what class they have to lv inorder to continue playing?

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I never said people had to level anything else, though. I'm merely saying that not all players will spend time leveling to 50 in the first week. It may not be hard, but it does still take time, and not everyone will spend more than an hour or two in the game each day.


There are many players who are not at level 50 yet. If they aren't casual gamers, what are they?



Edit:

In response to below (I'm out of posts).

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Originally Posted by Dranosi

i dont know about your server, but low lv zone in mine is a ghost town.

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You have a fair point.

I've seen enough people in the level 1-25 areas without chocobos or mounts around my server (well, either they don't have mounts or they just really enjoy sprinting long distances) to convince me that the lower level community still exists. Admittedly, the higher level areas like Coerthas are always full of people yelling and running around, but I have doubts as to whether there are more than a few hundred players who are actually high level and running around in that zone--especially since I always see the same people shouting there.


Anyway, I'm not against SE making life a bit easier for the high level players, I'm just pointing out that the entire community isn't actually at that point in the game.

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Originally Posted by Selyndria

Thanks for this. I've been leveling my crafts and the money is coming easy. All those bitching about the auction house taking a cut please stop. Every MMO I've played has a house cut. Guess people don't notice because the game publishers have made those games so easy just to try to get all the casuals on the subscription.

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Those of us pointing out that the AH takes out a cut is not because we are complaining about it, but because people are not recognizing that is pulling gil out of the whole economy while saying they are making gil by playing the market. Yes, one can increase their own gil supplies by the AH, but the economy as a whole looses gil every time an AH transaction happens.

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Originally Posted by Tari-F

I never said people had to level anything else, though. I'm merely saying that not all players will spend time leveling to 50 in the first week. It may not be hard, but it does still take time, and not everyone will spend more than an hour or two in the game each day.


There are many players who are not at level 50 yet. If they aren't casual gamers, what are they?

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i dont know about your server, but low lv zone in mine is a ghost town.

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Originally Posted by Demetirus

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You make some solid points, and indeed the gym analogy isn't really a good one (if anyone has a better one, feel free to share), however unless explicitly told, you are given the impression that you can (to use your example) sit on the bike for 6 hours a day. You were never told otherwise, and are now in a contract paying for a service you were mislead to believe would cover what you were after, but simply does not. I am quite aware that crafting/gathering is a part of the game, and I am far less frazzled about the whole ordeal than some players, but (to my knowledge) it was never stated that you had to partake in gathering/crafting in order to maintain one section of the game. People are still in their free month, and arguably haven't been milked out of any money, but again, they also aren't tied to a contract.

You pretty much summed up my point perfectly; people will leave if the service isn't what they are after (want to spam dungeons, forced to do other parts they have no interest in). Again, this is arguably better for the community, but not so much for Square's bottom line.

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Originally Posted by Nayto

That's not the problem, the problem is that the game was promised to hand out to you everything and it stops handing you money at end-game. There's no gil generation from an exploitable source to inflate the economy.

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Everyone forgets fates and levequest. They are repeatable and so are the earnings. The amount of money from quest is not limited since MANY quest are repeatable. The allowance on quest per day is no doubt in place to stop spamming and farming. Now quit looking for easy money and just enjoy the damn game ppl

If you think the gil seller problem is bad imagine if they could bot cleverest without restriction. I see no problem with the current manner of earning gil aside from player laziness

I'm a handsome Elezen! Who cannot get into the game. I therefore wish to impart some poop on your thread.

*poops in your thread*

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Originally Posted by BabyChooChoo

ah, I thought I was missing something. My mistake, send me the "How to Correctly Play FFXIV" guide that Square Enix wrote because I can't seem to find it.

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I can't blame you, since it is currently only available in Japan. :rolleyes:

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...20130807_1.jpg

I thought this game is 16+, or the current teen generation is so bad at economy? No wonder the current world economy.

Personal Wealth =/= Economy.

As a non-50 I have a couple quick questions.

How long does it take for your gear to go from 100-0 durability doing dungeons?

Whats the repair cost at 0 durability for a vender repair?

Whats the average gil and seals generated from on high level fate?

i don't craft/gather, i don't like to do it in ANY MMO i play. Difference between this and other MMOs - is that in other MMOs devs have thought about people like me and implemented ways to make money without crafting. Not all people like to craft just as not all people like to play support classes.

I think we are all doing it wrong, somewhere. No way to prove of economy deflation or lack thereof. One thing to note, the prices for most things were dropped from 1.0 to 2.0. If you have bought anything from the market you may have overpaid and is why you are feeling like there isn't enough money out there. No one should be paying 10k for a body piece worth 2k.

I'm getting so tired of seeing so many people who fail at basic economics, it makes me sad. OP's sig is very ironic.

The problem with the 50 economy is that I shouldn't have to choose. If I choose to run dungeons in a group and we don't wipe I shouldn't have to pay more in repair then what I earned in the dungeon. Yoshi has stressed that you should be able to play the game in anyway and not be forced into doing something that you find boring. Significant repair costs should only come from dying and not from doing the day to day to stuff.

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Originally Posted by Aicha

Although I fear I'm trolled here. Playing the AH actually pulls even more Gil out of the economy.

Also currently tons of people bring new Gil into the economy due to quest rewards. Once a majority is 50 more Gil will leave the game than enter it. And even crafting damages the equipment so that adds to the Gil drain too not just fighting.

*sigh* And fates give very little Gil while damaging your gear, so there is no real net gain of Gil.

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And when that happens, SE can add a new gil source. For now, that source is NOT needed and would only be exploited. OPs point stands until deflation actually happens.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/f...#threads/86954

Don't see that anyone posted this, but with tomorrow's update the cost of repairs and dark matter are supposed to come down (and substantially at least in the case of DM5).

^ Guess that means they decided there was a gil problem. IMAGINE THAT.

I keep seeing multiple threads about gil problems at level 50. For one, many of those players seem to lack crafting or gathering professions. I for one can generate more gil in a day's worth of crafting leves than I could ever spend dungeon crawling at my level. Do crafting leves offer less gil at level 50? I can attest the level 30 crafting leves give more gold than level 15. I can only assume the level 45 leves would pay out even more.

At the very least, the rushers will need to wait on us that are generating gil through our leves to buy HQ mats, drops, etc from them if they don't turn to crafting/gathering leves for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Iskander

You are not 50 sir. Apparently you havent read that gil problems start at endgame high 50s.

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And I've yet to read many, if any, level 50s that have problems generating gil through high level crafting leves. Those that don't want to put any effort or time in any aspect of the game outside of dungeon crawling WILL have to depend on those of us that do take the time to generate gil through leves to buy what ever said people throw on the market.

Oh, and unless I'm mistaken with the dark matter, don't people need to have a relevant crafting profession at specific levels to utilize it?

You are not 50 sir. Apparently you havent read that gil problems start at endgame high 50s.

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Originally Posted by Iskander

^ Guess that means they decided there was a gil problem. IMAGINE THAT.

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That or they just caved to the people whining.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

And once again, someone confuses macroeconomics with microeconomics.

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I don't think anyone who plays an MMO all day is in any position to speak as though they understand economics. Most economists barely understand economics.

The stupidity of people is really starting to baffle me!

Youre gathering? GREAT!!! Guess whos buying your stuff? Crafters!!!

You know how crafters make their money? They sell their crafted gear, using your mats, to the battle classes!

Know how the battle classes afford their gear? They use their nest egg that they built up by leveling to 50! Once that's gone, nothing! They'll be forced to level a gathering class in order to make money!

What happens once they are gathering? You lose your market because they are selling to crafters!

What happens then? They level crafts! Uh oh there goes the crafting market!

Yay everyone is self sustainable now and no one makes money! Oh wait, we cant afford repairs because we're broke!

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

http://media1.giphy.com/media/R5kxSV...G/original.gif

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I'll try to help with that. The complaints about gil revolve around gil being generated primarily via leveling quests which are finite. This introduces a problem since gilsinks continue exponentially into lvl50+ gameplay and questing stops. Playing the market as you suggest doesn't generate gil, it merely redistributes it while acting as a gil sink for the overall community through its taxation.

Everyone leveling and doing quests means the economy is flooded with gil. That will change when we all stop questing.

Only people complaining really are the level 50 peeps who are constantly rerunning dungeons. They are really not contributing anything to this game all they want is the greatest dungeon gear so they can keep rerunning the dungeons. The games only been out for a few weeks are these people just constantly going to rerun the same dungeons til new high level ones come out so they can constantly do them.

Heres an idea instead of doing these dungeons over and over again go out there try something new and make some gil. Take 3-4 days off of dungeons and go out there and make that money. Guess what the dungeons will still be there in a week, nobody is going to out gear you cause you are all gonna have the same high end gear since there is no new content for a few months.

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Originally Posted by tyniwins

The problem with the 50 economy is that I shouldn't have to choose. If I choose to run dungeons in a group and we don't wipe I shouldn't have to pay more in repair then what I earned in the dungeon. Yoshi has stressed that you should be able to play the game in anyway and not be forced into doing something that you find boring. Significant repair costs should only come from dying and not from doing the day to day to stuff.

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I think you've well summarized the real issue.

Its fine if you don't like repair costs! Complain all day. Just don't say that your repair sink is greater than the gil fountain of all the combined players in the game. Its not true.

The 1000's of people doing leves/FATES daily far outweigh the small amount doing endgame. Yet those who run dungeons want the gil handed to them directly. If its not then they blame the economy.

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Originally Posted by Decoyninja

I'll try to help with that. The complaints about gil revolve around gil being generated primarily via leveling quests which are finite. This introduces a problem since gilsinks continue exponentially into lvl50+ gameplay and questing stops. Playing the market as you suggest doesn't generate gil, it merely redistributes it while acting as a gil sink for the overall community through its taxation.

Everyone leveling and doing quests means the economy is flooded with gil. That will change when we all stop questing.

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You're right that there COULD be a problem everyone runs endgame and questing stops. But right now that is not the case and there is no proof or indication that it will happen anytime soon. Gil can infinitely be created by leves/FATES and there will continue to be new players for some time to come. Not only new players but people leveling new classes and doing leves/FATES/quests for each one.

What you describe is a far future problem.

What about people who hate crafting? I find crafting to be mind numbingly boring, and always have. I'm practically forced to make a crafter/gatherer if I ever want money, which is silly.

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Originally Posted by Svennyblaze

Heres an idea instead of doing these dungeons over and over again go out there try something new and make some gil. Take 3-4 days off of dungeons and go out there and make that money. Guess what the dungeons will still be there in a week, nobody is going to out gear you cause you are all gonna have the same high end gear since there is no new content for a few months.

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blahshfgsdhs THATS WHAT PART OF MMO POPULATIONS ARE!!! You need these people to buy your crap! Jesus no one understands.

'I make money gathering! You should stop dungeoning and do that!'

'Okay!' *all players gather*

'omg the market is so bad now! Why is no one buying my stuff?'

'We all did what you said and leveled a gathering class for money! We don't need to buy that stuff anymore.'

Going and crafting or going and gathering IS NOT a fix! These all day dungeon runners are how you make your money. If they go broke, so do you eventually >.<

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Originally Posted by Svennyblaze

Only people complaining really are the level 50 peeps who are constantly rerunning dungeons...

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I'm complaining, and I do gather / craft to make money. Thing is, any idiot can see that the ways to CREATE gil bring in less or barely break even than what it costs to cover repairs doing said activities.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

I have never, ever, EVER, seen a community unanimously agree that an auction house only pulls money out of the economy.

If you aren't willing to do anything other than walk around and grind dungeons like a zombie, you really aren't playing the game right.

Sorry. It's true.

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http://www.investopedia.com/exam-gui...ax-effects.asp

For the record, I am not agreeing there is a problem and I am not 50. But facts are facts.

Most of the time, in a video game, where a real economy suffers there is "generation" from random sources. People claim here it isn't happening. You can dispute that claim.

Even if gil has net creation on a server (ignoring quests) if item generation outpaces gil creation prices will fall.

This pathetic WoW generation is working so hard to ruin gaming forever.

Get over yourselves already. This self entitlement has to stop. Stop crying and demanding the game to be dumbed down to your level of laziness and ineptitude. MMORPG's are supposed to take work and effort. no legit MMO was ever designed for you to jump in, do mindless speed grinding to 50 in one week, and be rich at the same time. Get your lazy butts out there and earn some gil.

It's because of you guys games these days are getting too easy. I fear gaming is never going to be the same with this A.D.D generation of useless kids.

There are ways to create gil without crafting. But they don't involve doing the top dungeons 40 times a day... The game is fine, the problem is you guys.

I have a question. How many of you, in the process of going through 1-50 on a DoW/M without taking any detours, have found a use for the market board? From personal experience leveling 1-50 on ACN in the first week I don't even recall standing near it because all my potions/food/armor/weapons came from the quests. So when exactly are we fueling the market by making purchases? Need better equipment? Do more dungeons! If you are in need of making purchases as a DoW/M you unfortunately probably skipped all the quests. The way I see it once repairs are ironed out the point in leveling a crafting or gathering job is relatively moot unless it's alchemist or culinarian so let's be honest here, as DoW/M we already don't contribute to the economy so attempting to make any justification of "stimulating the economy" by lowering repair fees is only a partially informed way of getting at the problem. I agree something needs to be done about repairs but not because of economy sake but rather allowing player choice in their activities. Crafting needs to create items that will actually have demand rather than subpar versions of dungeon equipment that take much more effort to make and have even less of a demand when nobody will go out of their way to make gil on a dps to buy it when they can just run more dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Trife

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Gil was ridiculously overabundant in FF XI and there were dozens of ways for battle classes to make money. You sold old gear. You had no repair costs. if you wanted to get rich, you crafted. If you wanted to break even, you did repeatable quests or farmed NM drops ON YOUR BATTLE CLASS. FF XI did so well for a reason. Not being able to make money without crafting is a joke.

Forcing everyone to craft for cash will saturate the market with crafting gear and no one will be able to make anything outside of high level crafting leves, which will make you less than 10k/day due to being limited in quantity. This will cover one full repair+the repair of crafting gear+teleports. This may be okay to always break even, but you wont be able to make money crafting anymore because everyone still playing when the battle classes economy totally crashes will be a crafter themselves

But its okay, youll just ignore me because I have a point

I suggest we all hold our collective breath and see how things look after tomorrow's update.

I for one plan to start figuring out what I need to do crafting-wise to be able to do self repairs. I've been lazy with developing crafting, which I generally enjoy, but feared the expense of it all.

I loved the way the FFXI economy worked. But guess what. The cries of the new WoW kids demanded that MMO's be horribly simple. Hence, FFXIV...

This game could be so much better with FFXI's economy, skill system, and group based leveling. I play every MMO hoping it will be as rewarding as FFXI was. But nope, these kids can't have that, gotta be 50 in a week. Sad really.

For the record, group based leveling with skill chains was 10x funner than freaking dungeon/FATE grinding. Thanks WoW kids! What else are you going to ruin?