Square, Don't let the Community ruin this game

What about the people that want to speed run? At least they drop party. They are paying customers too. But no, let's enforce people to be 100% the way you want them to be.

You guys will seriously complain about ANYTHING.

Servers don't work you complain.
Restricted login's you complain.
Can't make characters you complain.
You finally get into the game and complain about FATES.
You get to level 50 and complain about how others don't want to do the same pointless trash mobs every single time.
I mean seriously all you do is complain, can you not just enjoy the game without making a complaint thread?

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

People really need to stop blaming SE for the PW incident.

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Okay, fine. Absolute Virtue.

PW wasn't the first epically long fight, or even the longest. I believe shells tried AV for more than a solid day, long before PW reared its...whatever PW is.

Thing is, SE didn't care until it was picked up by the news.

FFXI players have joked and joked about the polite message that greets you every time you login to the game. Something like "Please don't forget your friends, family, etc etc.". FFXI is the only major mmo always reminding you of that and simultaneously demanding that if you want the gear, you'll ignore that warning. Or it was, years ago.

I mean c'mon, HNM were all about sitting at the PC doing nothing.

The only part you're right about is that players didn't have to accept the challenge. SE didn't have to make it either.

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Originally Posted by neverendingxsin

You guys will seriously complain about ANYTHING.

Servers don't work you complain.
Restricted login's you complain.
Can't make characters you complain.
You finally get into the game and complain about FATES.
You get to level 50 and complain about how others don't want to do the same pointless trash mobs every single time.
I mean seriously all you do is complain, can you not just enjoy the game without making a complaint thread?

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Kind of ironic.

You complaining about complainers, or about complainer's complaints.

I mean, you obviously want to do speed runs. Fine for you. Wouldn't you prefer it if, rather than getting lumped with a party that doesn't want to speed run and having to re-queue all over again, you could simply indicate you want a speed run party in the first place? ...Because that's exactly what this thread is suggesting.

Now that's REALLY ironic. You complaining about complainer's who are suggesting an improvement that you would actually benefit from.

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Originally Posted by Etherite

Chill out and know not everybody plays exactly the same way you do.

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...which is *exactly* why people shouldn't expect to use DF to get speed run parties.

People really need to chill. Usually whenever people are using the DF, it is to finish whatever quest they got for it. I speak for myself here, when I get a story quest that forces me to do a dungeon, the lassstt thing I want to do is wait... I guess everybody's play-style is different.

But seriously, nobody wants to wait on anybody... like, come on.... Just because you're tank doesn't mean you need pull every single node of mobs in the entire dungeon. Nobody, unless the ask for it wants that.

Chill out and know not everybody plays exactly the same way you do. That's the great thing about DF -- you que up, you get it done however which way you can and that's that. It's over after that you never have to see those people again. Lol.

If you REALLY want like-minded people to play with? Find a LS/FC that suits your needs, playstyle, and available hours. Or, make and/or bring some friends of yours into the game.

**EDIT**
Duty Finder is not the only way to find groups

If you want to do something in a specific way, form your own group with like-minded people (I'd be down to learn with you or help if I already know it) or ask guildmates to do it with you.

You can't use a tool that groups you with three random people then be surprised when they don't all agree with you.

If you still use the DF and the consensus of the group differs from what you want to do, you have an option. Leave the group, eat the lockout, and wait again.

If you're outvoted and you stay and try to insist on your way, you're the asshole, not everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Etherite

Just because you're tank doesn't mean you need pull every single node of mobs in the entire dungeon. Nobody, unless the ask for it wants that.

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There is a mountain of difference between pulling every single node and sac-pulling the whole damn place because people refuse to fight it.

I'm not big on going out of my way to pull needlessly. The Demons before the wall boss are a great example of that. If I could avoid that (I've always had to avoid it anyway), I would. No good reason to fight it.

LOL. Then why should you expect to have slow runs when using DF? It's random, and the group goes with whatever mindset the people you got grouped with have.

The only real issues is poor attitudes of a lot of the newer players, or clearly (caught it and got admitted to) people taking over old accounts. (already?)

Most Legacy are actually long time FFXI players as well. This community attitude, bashing has boiled over. Rather then take a breath or proper meds for their ADHD issues, they cause an uproar. Tanks dropping because of mouths without backup. People thinking it is like another game. People playing on families accounst clearly not understanding the role. Not understanding economy, team work, and management.

I hoep they are not like this in daily life or it will be a long road ahead for them.

On the tanking note. To many people don't think. I just by mistake got ued into sunken, but said well ill run it for them for kicks. Damn summnor starts dotting before a flash can go off, and i'm sorry, im not playing run around like a chicken for someone who can't pay attention to timing. I said "I'm not chasing down due to bad choices, wait before casting" got attitude, end of run as simple as that. I know his role, clearly (due to the fact of a lack of clearing the dungeon" he doesn't understand others, and by then should. When you explain and they get cocky. then tanks done. Just like when I healed a run for them, and they did it to another tank. He was done.

Tanks should pull what they know they can handle and pull as best as possible when it can be controlled.

Archers, I typically love, but some are clueless. grabbing hate and strafing menas dead archer. I you keep doing it. I will let you and sit back and watch. If im the healer, and Im tossing you heals more then the tank chasing , im going to heal that tank first. raise you after.

It's funny. There are people here supporting my topic saying that duty finder isn't the only way to find groups.

There are people against it saying the same thing.

There are a few people, like myself, looking for SE not to enforce either method but to encourage trash kills, with rewards, not because of penalties.

I will say one thing though.

On one hand, if you're looking for a group that's experienced enough and willing to do a speed run, you should form the group from your friends, and not because it differs from my argument, but because you know your friends, their talents, and if they're capable of one shotting the whole place in 20 minutes.

Still, I want is SE to take an active role is enticing players, not forcing or penalizing them.

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Originally Posted by Etherite

LOL. Then why should you expect to have slow runs when using DF? It's random, and the group goes with whatever mindset the people you got grouped with have.

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LOL. Then why should you expect to have speed runs when using DF? It's random, and the group goes with whatever mindset the people you got grouped with have.

There. Corrected that for you.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Still, I want is SE to take an active role is enticing players, not forcing or penalizing them.

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Agreed. This is not about forcing people to do one or the other - but enabling an option *before* you enter the dungeon that makes it clear what the expectations of other group members are.

This can only help. And there is no reason for either preference, speed or not, to be against it.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

It's funny. There are people here supporting my topic saying that duty finder isn't the only way to find groups.

There are people against it saying the same thing.

There are a few people, like myself, looking for SE not to enforce either method but to encourage trash kills, with rewards, not because of penalties.

I will say one thing though.

On one hand, if you're looking for a group that's experienced enough and willing to do a speed run, you should form the group from your friends, and not because it differs from my argument, but because you know your friends, their talents, and if they're capable of one shotting the whole place in 20 minutes.

Still, I want is SE to take an active role is enticing players, not forcing or penalizing them.

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Good opinion. I really hope SE looks into it for ya. :)

I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I didn't read the whole thread.

I don't know why you're surprised people who are running endgame dungeons a week after release are trying to rush through them, they obviously rushed through the rest of the game to get there.

This will become less of an issue as the people who don't play 24/7 get to endgame.

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Originally Posted by Kahri

LOL. Then why should you expect to have speed runs when using DF? It's random, and the group goes with whatever mindset the people you got grouped with have.

There. Corrected that for you.



Agreed. This is not about forcing people to do one or the other - but enabling an option *before* you enter the dungeon that makes it clear what the expectations of other group members are.

This can only help. And there is no reason for either preference, speed or not, to be against it.

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You're really annoying. Lol. I bet you annoy a lot of the people you play with.

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Originally Posted by Etherite

You're really annoying. Lol. I bet you annoy a lot of the people you play with.

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Ditto, Babe. Ditto.

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Edit : I just stooped to your level and insulted your character instead of responding in a civil fashion, and that wasn't a good choice on my part. I should've instead said something along the lines of...

"Just because you get annoyed doesn't mean the person who annoyed you is annoying. Disagreement with your opinion, while being an annoying situation, does not mean the other person are themselves 'annoying'. Perhaps instead ask yourself why it is you allowed yourself to become annoyed?"

I think this is something that will correct itself in the mid-term, simply because more of the more casual players will start to filter towards the top. Unfortunately, in the long run it will probably end up like WoW, where every instance from level 15 is expected to be a speed run. I really don't know if there's a good way around it other than trying to find a FC that can accommodate your needs. I can't think of any reasonable solution SE can do game side.

I'm not sure why you think the only people wanting to do speed runs are legacy players. Legacy players are just as new to the dungeons as everyone else.

The people you're seeing aren't all legacy players; they're "get to the last 1% ASAP" players that jump from MMO to MMO. They did the same thing in GW2, they're doing it here, and they'll do it in EQN. Give it a month and they'll be tired of making threads complaining about NOT ENOUGH CONTENT!!1 in the game's first week of release and leave.

Then you'll be stuck with the actual legacy players, who are an awesome group.

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Originally Posted by Ceol

I'm not sure why you think the only people wanting to do speed runs are legacy players. Legacy players are just as new to the dungeons as everyone else.

The people you're seeing aren't all legacy players; they're "get to the last 1% ASAP" players that jump from MMO to MMO. They did the same thing in GW2, they're doing it here, and they'll do it in EQN. Give it a month and they'll be tired of making threads complaining about NOT ENOUGH CONTENT!!1 in the game's first week of release and leave.

Then you'll be stuck with the actual legacy players, who are an awesome group.

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Hear hear.

Your view of the world through rose-colored glasses conflicts with my own personal view. SE should regulate you people. See how easy that is?

There are 7800 people on a server at once. Not everyone is like you. Learn to deal with that fact. Or you could always join a religious institution, they like conformity.

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Originally Posted by Shael

So you'd punish people doing things efficiently and quickly to get what they want? Unless they gate each section and force you to kill everything speed running is going to be here permanently. If you don't want to speed run get some people from your server together who're like minded and run things normally. That's your solution to what you find to be a problem.

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People like you and these idiot speedrunners ruin games, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

WoW (etc) Players - Like it, Hate it, SE said a long time ago they wanted 2.0 to be more like World of Warcraft and that 1.0's goal was "merely to be different from Final Fantasy 11", and it is in a lot of ways. That game has a very toxic community and tools like the random dungeon finder only made it worse.

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People REALLY need to stop blaming dungeon finder for lack of community. I played WoW from launch, and there was worse back then, with only letting in certain classes, taking all the loot, being tools, etc. The dungeon finder just made more people see it faster. The community was full of groups (guilds mostly who would pick up one or two people, then take all the loot or abuse the person) who were terrible people. Dungeon finder let me as Warlock after they got nerfed see the content, before that i couldn't get a group to save my life, and when i did it was universally terrible. After dungeon finder, i had a blast, with the rare bad group.

The speed runs are stupid in my eyes, especially in DF, as a lot of dungeons are needed for story, i'm not going to skip. You want a speed run, form one yourself with others who want to. Dungeons need to be changed where if one party member dies, all the aggro goes to surviving party members, like if you were in a normal combat, with also no leash, so they will follow to the entrance, to the boss room, etc.

When you decide to use the Duty Finder tool you accept to be grouped with random strangers whom you know nothing about. Nothing about their experience, their gear, skill, where they are from or what their preference and expectations in a game is. You do so on your own merit, fully aware of what you're getting yourself into.

Now let's assume you get into a group and the three others you're with want to do a speed run, you're the only one who disagree. Are people here truly suggesting that the rest of the group should simply comply to your wishes because you think it's the "right way to do it"? As long as they're not breaking any rules to achieve their goals, there is no right or wrong way, only better or worse, depending on what your goals might be. If you find yourself in the minority, either soak it up or leave to make your own custom group.

I'm sure it can be frustrating that you find it hard to find groups accustomed to your liking using a randomized LFG tool, but that doesn't mean the community is bad.

/signed this is a problem that shouldnt happen.

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Originally Posted by Tari-F

I wouldn't be surprised if quite a number of the more relaxed players are just playing with friends or chilling and leveling lower level classes or crafting or doing something other than running high level dungeons through dutyfinder at this point, honestly.

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Well that basically what is going on now. I've seen plenty of the chill players going through crafting, gathering, and stuff after their storyline is done.

I currently trying to get a lvl 50 Bard now since as i played Summoner through the storyline to lvl 50, I find that Bard is more fun for me but currently I'm focusing on getting all necessary cross-skills before I begin leveling my Archer/Bard to lvl 50. Got to get my lancer to level 22 for the Invigorate cross-skill.

(currently only lvl 8 Archer)

I'm taking my time leveling. I hate leveling but intend on leveling everything. It may be 3 or 4 months before I have even 1 50. If I still haven't found an FC I like by then I will use the DF. I prefer tanking or healing so if the "speed runs" are still a problem then it wont bother me. I will either drop group if a healer or pull at my own pace as a tank. They can either leave or stay. Either way no skin off my back. I'm going to be able to go through groups fast enough to find one willing to take their time. I've always had the mentality that instance finders are for casuals or people with no guilds. If you want speed runs do them with your guild or deal with us "scum of the game" as most of these types of people seem to think we are.

Anyone else get the idea that most jerks who bash new players are mouth-breathing basement trolls who hold no power in real life?

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

I have noticed the higher I am getting in levels the worse the community is getting :(. I really enjoyed dungeons back when I was lower and now they are weird. I don't understand what happened to all the cool guys I played with, has it changed since launch?
I prefer to learn in the dungeon myself and I like getting better and being a better WHM but a lot of higher level dungeons have been really unpleasant lately :(.

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Wait until you hit 50 and it's time for Titan Hard Mode. They don't care if it's your first time, if you die to a single thing, and your the healer, these people will crucify you. My advice is to stay as far away from Duty finder as possible, server groups may take longer, but Duty Finder seems to make people feel verbally invincible because the things they say has no draw back on their reputation for the server they come from.

majority rules

if the majority of ppl want to only play with experienced ppl in random groups, that is how it is going to be REGARDLESS if there is an auto-matchmaking feature or not

in FFXI it was the same even though there is NO Duty Finder - you could not PUG any content with RANDOM ppl unless you ALREADY knew what to do

if you were new to the content, you were expected to learn it with friends and organized LS's and not with with random PUGS

Duty Finder doesn't affect people's attitudes; thus, it doesn't make the community or contribute to its toxicity. I don't really have time to sit around looking for a party or trying to find people I know will consistently be on the same times I am. My playtime is really varied. Sometimes I'm on in the afternoon, sometimes the early morning, sometimes very late night. I like being able to hop on and do a dungeon without having to check to see if people that I would normally party with are on or sit around in the chat, shouting for party members. If you don't like duty finder, don't use it to find party members. Have your members ready and then use it to initiate the dungeon.

As far as there not being a community, I think that's true for you since you seem to want to be an outcast of it. I've met loads of nice people via DF or just in my server. Maybe you should stop being so standoffish/doom and gloom?

This reminds me to people attitude during the whole Atomos incident, at the end of 1.0.

It's an oversight on the design on SE's part, as the Atomos encounters were, because even if you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you SHOULD be doing it, because the instance hasn't been designed to be played that way.

They should encourage players to play it the correct way, or even better, design instances well enough where speed running is not even possible, unless that's the idea of the instance of course, and punish everyone who tries to abuse game mechanics and ruining the game experience for others.

It's this attitude that has been destroying MMO's, because after skipping content and rushing everything these guys cry "this game is shit, it has no end game!" no shit sherlock, because it has not been designed to be rushed.

Everyone with their instant gratification sense of entitlement should just go away and stop consuming entertainment in general, because they are making it shit for everyone else.

IMHO, you are wrong about one thing. From my experience, those who reach 50 and unlock AK very fast are new players who are not legacy. They seems too eager to farm best-in-game gear whether to show off their progress or reputation idk.

Most of legacy friends I've known are still in late 30's-40's. They have no reason to rush, hurry, or anything.

And, if you talk about old FFXI players, I believe they are patient enough not to do a speed run because they used to wait something longer in FFXI. For something like AK, if you compare to something similar in FFXI, you can only do twice a week.

One thing I learning from my epxerience with MMO's: if I want things fast and flawless I either make my own group in my server and decide the ruleset (speedrun, achievement run, LF recipe, etc) or I team up with my friends. Those are the only two situation in which the person should have high expectation and demands. Because then you planned it ahead and the others in your group are aware of the goals which the agree with.

When you use tools like DF you are subject of finding any sort of people. And most people that will be doing story, enjoying the game and really don't give a damn if you've done the instance XX times. You're not supposed to expect por and perfect runs from randoms. If you get a group a which the same mindset and ready for speedruns, that's nice. Otherwise you have to suck it up and cope with the fact that the rest of the world isn't there to be subject of your will and needs.

Players really need to grow up and stop behaving like spoiled kids.

You could say this is a case of "clever use of game mechanics," but that doesn't mean it's working as intended. I'm sure the dungeons were created to take a certain amount time and effort - majority if not all trash mobs included - for the rewards they give out. Otherwise every dungeon would just be a longish corridor with three boss rooms and chests between the rooms. Maybe you'd get different walls textures for variety.

I think that if SE wanted to do something about this, they would have, so it's obviously fine with them.

They might not make everything in the group agro the group after the sacrificial-puller died, but they could make it where the giants had party-hate. (I'm not advocating that they do this, not at all.)

Speed pulls are fine, if your group is willing to do them, and there is such high demand that you're either willing to do them or you don't go. Group wipes to a boss though and the sac-puller has to do it all over again. The cost of this builds up over time.

Simply making the trash worth killing is dandy enough that groups will stop demanding it go one way and laughing at someone who has never done it.

I've been enjoying the game a lot so far, but I'm beginning to worry increaingly about reaching level 50 - I'd like to run end-game content, but not with speed-running elitists who quit if anyone is new or dares to watch a cutscene or doesn't already have uber gear. My preferred solution is still to add an additional checkbox to the DF allowing you to choose whether you're happy to group with people who haven't completed the dungeon before. Enabling it would ensure that you end up with some combination of new players and/or people who are more inclined to be patient about others who are new or taking it slow, whereas disabling it ensures everyone you're with has cleared the content before (the cutscenes could be automatically skipped, perhaps) and are more likely to be the sorts who expect a clean, fast run (since they're trying to avoid new players).

Sure, this might mean you have to wait a bit longer for a party with the DF, but it should give you a better chance of finding one you get along with, rather than one where opposing expectations means that the group dynamic quickly turns toxic and people quit.

(Edit: Oh, and I'd love everyone to get a tiny amount of emnity on pulls, actually. Easier to keep track of what enemies are attacking the party when they're in the list, I've learned, since my AoE sleep means everything tends to end up there.)

well u guys should know b4 we started, the whm asked nicely if anyone wants him to explain the instance.
Then this bad-ass Paladin said he's got this.
Then he marked some mobs that we could easily ignore (basic) and makes me think "oh, mayb he's new?" then the whm asked if the 2 tanks are new.
here what happened.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/...ps53b20a1d.png

In stead of "****, just DPS" and the next one he said on picture above, he could have said "Oh, im an Old player back in 1.0 (i guess), havent been here for awhile, that was my bad"

There's alot of ppl like him out there, that's why i chose to run with tactical group. ^ i woke up early, most of my friends wasnt on.

And for Old players (legacy players?) Dont call ppl "Noob" cuz, you can b playing a game for 2-3 years and still being bad. Some ppl (MOST PPL) can just spend 1-2 weeks in the same game and they might b able to/CAN play better than you. Im just saying.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

I think that if SE wanted to do something about this, they would have, so it's obviously fine with them.

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Its not, they adjusted Haukke Manor for the same reason in beta.

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

I completely agree with OP, content is to be enjoyed, and to be farmed over time, not in 2 weeks after launch. I don't want other players to destroy the carefully crafted game content because they are in a hurry to farm.

Speed runs should be a banneable offense unless the instance is designed to be completed in that way, or by adding a time attack mode where no rewards can be gained, and only aesthetic items can be rewarded if groups get the gold medal.

So there should be 4 modes for instances:

• Normal.
• Time attack normal.
• Hard.
• Time attack hard.

This is my opinion on this matter.

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I agree!!
10 char

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Originally Posted by AiXIII

And for Old players (legacy players?) Dont call ppl "Noob" cuz, you can b playing a game for 2-3 years and still being bad. Some ppl (MOST PPL) can just spend 1-2 weeks in the same game and they might b able to/CAN play better than you. Im just saying.

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Sorry for that experience. I tend to ignore any aggression in dungeons because it potentially causes shit for everyone.

However, the superiority complex isn't all legacies, or even most, and it's unfair to say that it is. I'm sure there are people running around in pretty much full AF (I am) who are ****heads to their groups. I met one of those at 35, and he was funny (he wasn't trying to be, it was just hilarious watching him try to talk down to all of us).

Speed runners aren't, by default, being mean, they're being fairly practical: If the group does well, it's faster for everyone. However, if they wipe, it becomes more of a nuisance and it always the most expensive for the sac-puller. Optimumly played, it's only the sac-puller who experiences any expense.

Some, of course, are just being mean but you can find mean people doing anything.

Easiest fix would be to have a base threat upon entering combat. ei. tank begins with 2 threat, dps and healer 1. No impact on the fight, no more skipping all the content and fun.