[dev1022] The Battle Regimen HATE thread and a ply for auto-attack

@reika apparently i dunno but on high hp mobs 13 or so ranks above brs done right can one shot them.

Because BR's are the shizit.

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Originally Posted by Radaghast

Stop replying to him/her/it. Nothing meaningful ever comes out of it except garbled ramblings.

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You are the personification of all that is wrong with this community.. please don't post with the singular purpose of inflammatory remarks.

at least Imuplse and Dubont have some what constructive posts, granted i would say they are being way too critical.

I am not sure if this game needs autoattack, but, the BR really needs improvement.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

I am not sure if this game needs autoattack, but, the BR really needs improvement.

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can you explain how so?

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Originally Posted by Dubont

can you explain how so?

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make the attack more action based like DCUO is using combos. I played it for ps3 and that combat is fun.
And to the OP id pay attention more in ffxiv the ffxi least My brain would be active then mindlessly watching the tv till tp was full.

DCUO imo did combat right with attack button rather then have them on the action bar. And in dcuo skill matters... a good skilled player can take down ppl higher level then them. And the use of the action bar is pretty fluid on a controler. And no one camplained the combat was dull.... not that many ppl complained about it ingeneral.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

make the attack more action based like DCUO is using combos. I played it for ps3 and that combat is fun.
And to the OP id pay attention more in ffxiv the ffxi least My brain would be active then mindlessly watching the tv till tp was full.

DCUO imo did combat right with attack button rather then have them on the action bar. And in dcuo skill matters... a good skilled player can take down ppl higher level then them. And the use of the action bar is pretty fluid on a controler. And no one camplained the combat was dull.... not that many ppl complained about it ingeneral.

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I'm an active DCUO player and trust me DCUO has its problems, some due to SOE and some due to another, MMO rushed release.

DCUO is riddled with bugs, and PS3 freeze issues which needles to say is not good for the PS3 lol. Those two things are the biggest issues in my book, people also complain about a lack of content but that is just because a lot of people OMG ZERG the game.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

[*]When setting up a BR each player that enters the chain queue is frozen solid and rendered unable to do anything else. This lowers the DPS, stops players from using strategical abilities (such as provoke, cure, etc) and more importantly ... if you want to cast buffs to be used with your ability, you need to do them before engaging, meaning that if they don't get it off extra quickly all buffs will wear off unused due to being stuck in a limbo!

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While I'm not necessarily a fan of battle regimes (I would prefer a more intuitive implementation that also included graphical effects on the monster), this is absolutely false. or better, it's the description of a Battle Regime as made by an unskilled/uncoordinated party.
The whole point of battle regimes is that it has to be execute in a timely manner and FAST. People need to stack abilities in a matter of a couple seconds, and then release the BR. That increases damage considerably, and completely nulls the "frozen in place" problem.

It's very possible, it just requires coordination, timing and a group on the ball. Which is the exact opposite of the "people watching TV or chatting on MSN" that you described.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

make the attack more action based like DCUO is using combos. I played it for ps3 and that combat is fun.
And to the OP id pay attention more in ffxiv the ffxi least My brain would be active then mindlessly watching the tv till tp was full.

DCUO imo did combat right with attack button rather then have them on the action bar. And in dcuo skill matters... a good skilled player can take down ppl higher level then them. And the use of the action bar is pretty fluid on a controler. And no one camplained the combat was dull.... not that many ppl complained about it ingeneral.

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Please stop comparing JRPG MMOs to Fighter-based MMOs like DCUO. Imo, DCUO is not a RPG....it's just not. It's like Mortal Kombat Shoalin Monks. Regardless, that type of "combat," as you call it, will never make it's way into a semi-traditional RPG. Also, my question was to the above poster as to why BRs need improvement.

If you have a group that KNOWS to use it EFFECTIVELY and FAST, you love BR and like to use it. But if you have a group that don't utilize BR that good well... don't use it? It's not like you have to.

Auto attack would not work with the current battle system. Let's see how they change the battle system first.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

Please stop comparing JRPG MMOs to Fighter-based MMOs like DCUO. Imo, DCUO is not a RPG....it's just not. It's like Mortal Kombat Shoalin Monks. Regardless, that type of "combat," as you call it, will never make it's way into a semi-traditional RPG. Also, my question was to the above poster as to why BRs need improvement.

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I personally LOVE BR's! however i would like to see over the top animations for successfully chaining IMO.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

Please stop comparing JRPG MMOs to Fighter-based MMOs like DCUO. Imo, DCUO is not a RPG....it's just not. It's like Mortal Kombat Shoalin Monks. Regardless, that type of "combat," as you call it, will never make it's way into a semi-traditional RPG. Also, my question was to the above poster as to why BRs need improvement.

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DCUO not the only rpg with action based combat. Elder scrolls has a mild form of it. So does zelda and Zelda is a jrpg.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

DCUO not the only rpg with action based combat. Elder scrolls has a mild form of it. So does zelda and Zelda is a jrpg.

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and none of them are MMOs...Demon's Souls is about the only thing that comes close to what you want and if it has the same combat as DS, then THAT I would play, but anything else? You can forget it.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

DCUO not the only rpg with action based combat. Elder scrolls has a mild form of it. So does zelda and Zelda is a jrpg.

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Those are all sub categories of RPG, labeled as Action RPG, not the same as Final Fantasy XIV which is JRPG.

Awwww how I love these people throwing shit at things they can't use properly <3

EDIT: was refearing only to OP, I didn't want to read all the 6 pages, I've already read too many things about AA and BR with all the threads starting since the forum's launch -.-'

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Originally Posted by Bled

Those are all sub categories of RPG, labeled as Action RPG, not the same as Final Fantasy XIV which is JRPG.

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personally who cares. You guys are over critical anyway.

Dcuo is a action game packaged in an mmo format, ur still spamming a two to three buttons to do your attacks and is meant for speed. That makes its pvp more fun but not as fun for pve encounters. Id rather play a single player game like batman arkham or wolverine if i wanted something loke that.

Brs at times yes they can be cimberson if you have ppl still trying to figure it out. Last night i was in a grind pt doing efts, we timed how much sp we got with and with out br. For thirty minutes we made roughly 7k sp every 30 minutes. With br we almost doubled it woth three melee and two mages one shotting the efts in one br. The only thing that slowed us down was se's anti rmt measure not letting kill them constantly in under two hours we did 35k sp.

Br's used right triples dps from all players, helps the healers, and also makes everyones epeen awesome :P

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

personally who cares. You guys are over critical anyway.

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not over critical just an opinion based on genre's that have been all ready established, if i want to play a first person shooter i play Halo, if i want to play an action RPG i play Zelda, if i want to play a JRPG i play Final Fantasy. I am not a fan of incorporating elements of other genres into another genre, it gets too messy.

The most invalid argument against BRs is button mashing. And honestly, I don't see the need for Auto-attack any more.

Since implementing BRs into my regular play style, I'm never mashing the "1" button. Granted I play Pug, so it's a constant swing between Heavy Strike and Flurry, but after 3-4 attacks, I've got enough TP to jump in on whatever BR is being used.

The same goes for Archer or Thamaturge. After 3-4 shots, I have enough TP to jump into a BR easily.

Original computer RPG and jRPG were created with mechanics tken from PnP RPG, which meant one thing: Turn based combat. With better computers, the classic turn system was tweaked with some changes to become real time, however in most of them are still ghosts of turn based combat. Elder scrolls serries was kind of different, it allowed player to feel combat by alowing them to swing teir weapons by themselves, diablo changed it in other way, introducing the current-FOTM-mmo mchanics. Basic autoattack, and spammable skills( special abilities). Honestly speaking thats whai i hate in moast MMOS. They do concentrate on creating gazillion of special abilities to spamalienating from real combat feeling. in singe player RPGs, one of best combat system i eeverplayed was KOTOR - it was implementation of d20 PnP ruleset in realtime manner, you selected mean of attack ( basic, power, criticalstrike, flurry) and eventual forcepower every now and than, a;ll done with neat queue system. The second option is what Mount and Blade did. Sword fight simulation. also no special abilities, all skills are 'utility' (more amage, more HP, healing, horseback riding, tactics, leadership etc)

But end of diggresion.

Current FFXIV mechanics are very enjoyable, and AA will only turnit for worse. And main point of playing a MMOGame is having fun

Is there a point in replying? Pretty much 5 pages of this thread are a bunch of people arguing with a troll, one guy told others to stop feeding it and he got shot down. I even replied to what was said before and I believe it covers a lot of what said afterwards but it seems no one even read it.

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I take it you haven't looked at the debuffs granted via BR, nor the increased damage output from a stack of 3+.

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This wasn't the point because this would be the same if it was done in a manner similar to skillchains, it would just be more DPS because you're not waiting for everyone to cue up.

How about people waiting for others to perform the right skill so they can preform theirs? it is still waiting dude. And unless they sped it up since the last time I played, it was too slow and put me to sleep.

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Originally Posted by Mack

This wasn't the point because this would be the same if it was done in a manner similar to skillchains, it would just be more DPS because you're not waiting for everyone to cue up.

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It's part of the point s/he was attempting to make. They said BRs lower DPS which is entirely false. I don't see how you could have distorted that into something skillchainish since this is how it is now. The only way you would be losing DPS and sitting in queue via regimen would be if your party sucks and doesn't know how to pull off a BR properly and efficiently. You shouldn't be in queue for more than 2 seconds.

http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/113092734-4.jpg
The BR executed before that screenshot was taken took Downy Dunstan down from near full to dead in less than 3 seconds, where whacking it without BR would've taken at least a minute or two.
How you get "more DPS" without BR is beyond me. Sure, it'll seem that way if your group is slow to stack and execute the regime but the fact of the matter is that it does *not* lower DPS and only increases it, both immediately and over time via the debuffs granted.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

I tbink people just don;t like my opinon and vs letting me have it pull the "you don't play" card as to think im going to think differently if I play.
Just because I'm not of the same opinion as you that I don;t understand something. I could care less about a persons dps. As long as we have fun thats all I care about.

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ya but Kilta the the game isn't 111111111111111111111, you'd have to be useless just pressing 1.
That was before they changed sp. now if you are smart and maximize yourself ur flipping between skill and skill sets to maximize dmg, tp building, buffing, and minding your stamina.

Before you can make an argument about the functions of the game take time to research them so you know what you're talking about. You have zero credibility sorry.

well maximum 5 second . .

profundity II increased cast times for mages, if chainspell is down.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Is there a point in replying? Pretty much 5 pages of this thread are a bunch of people arguing with a troll, one guy told others to stop feeding it and he got shot down. I even replied to what was said before and I believe it covers a lot of what said afterwards but it seems no one even read it.

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I’ll agree with you on that. No offence to said poster, but they don’t play FFXIV and only tend to use mechanics from other games (one in particular) to try and make solid points about this game... and this game is not other games. It may have things in it that feel like other games, but it is its own beast. I’ve just been ignoring it because it’s a senseless battle arguing with someone who has stated in may post that they don’t believe anything they say is wrong (according to their posts), will always say its other people being too critical on them (according to their posts), and who can’t even give a solid argument without using another game as a basis because they don’t play this one. People can have fun banging their heads against a brick wall; I’ll opt out of that fun and keep my opinion to their comments to myself.

BUT GETTING BACK ON TOPIC!

As to what you said:

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Originally Posted by Majidah

The only thing autoattack does is give more time to talk with your teamates and to think and trigger skills without downtime caused by moving through your skills.
Or even better, where did you pay more attention during battles? In XI with its autoattack or in XIV with its consistant mashing?
Answer: XI.
And well, the player involvement required in skillchains being a lot higher than BR isn't even up for argument.
edit // PS:
Also, if it didn't work the way it did, you'd have more time to trigger buffs off or harness more TP for 2k+ tp skills. You also wouldn't be risking having your buffs wear off due to someone else. You'd be a lot more in control.
Do you like the effects of BRs? I said nothing against them. You could easily keep those without giving away all the control you have over whats being done.
The roles are reversed here: BRs basically make the system play for you, while you do what the system should be doing. Mashing one over and over.

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In all honesty I played FFXI for about 6 years and I feel (and of course this is simply my opinion) that auto attack plays the game for you much more than BR’s do, and I feel like BR’s require as much if not MORE involvement that WS’s in FFXI. When I played FFXI, and I am a classic multi-tasker, I could listen to music, talk to people and have the TV on in the background watching whatever while playing. Every once in a while I might have to pay attention just to make sure I got my WS off in time to make a SC and that was the only thing timing was good for.

As I said in my last post, BR is ALL about timing. First you have to time to make sure that you get the Light/Heavy off within a specific amount of time, if you do not you make the group wait in queue. Once you get that off then you have to get off the WS within a specific amount of time, if you’re too late it doesn’t help or you have to let either the BR or the WS go because you won’t get anything out of it.

In all the multi-layers of the BR system that you have to have good timing on vs. FFXI where you pretty much just had to pay attention to make sure WS’s went off in the right order. I do not think that BR’s play the system for you because the whole effectiveness of the BR is totally dependent on the players using it within the allotted time and correct order. Since it is totally based off the payers doing this correctly, then it cannot be based off the system playing it for you. I know for a fact I don’t press ‘1 1 1 1 1’ over and over while doing a BR, I actually have to hit a few different buttons from the beginning of the BR to the end of the BR and I actually use a combination of controller and keyboard to make this work.

All in all I understand your point of view, and as stated before, I am unsure if you’ve had a party that knew how to use BR’s in a fast and effective way. I love them, I feel they bring a lot to the table and that they should stay… while I appreciate your opinion, I don’t agree with it.

To be honest it’s hard to compare the two and say one is better than another because they are different systems. I’m not saying I don’t like auto attack, I just don’t agree that BR’s are useless. Anyway… anything over time, if you do it enough, will become instinct and in that situation become easy for the players to do and they won’t have to pay as much attention.

I know it's been said before but the people who generally do not like BR are the ones who have never used it effectively. It adds a layer of depth and coordination to a fight that doesn't exist otherwise. The people participating in the BR have to know what they're doing and have to be quick about it. You shouldn't be stuck queued up for a BR for longer than 5 seconds, otherwise your group is taking too long. The debuffs it puts on a monster are incredibly useful, especially in regards to magic. Seeing a mage consistently do 1k+ damage with a single spell is great and seeing a hit for 3k+ is amazing. You can't get that kind of damage outside of properly using BR.

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Originally Posted by Impulse

It's part of the point s/he was attempting to make. They said BRs lower DPS which is entirely false. I don't see how you could have distorted that into something skillchainish since this is how it is now. The only way you would be losing DPS and sitting in queue via regimen would be if your party sucks and doesn't know how to pull off a BR properly and efficiently. You shouldn't be in queue for more than 2 seconds.

http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/113092734-4.jpg
The BR executed before that screenshot was taken took Downy Dunstan down from near full to dead in less than 3 seconds, where whacking it without BR would've taken at least a minute or two.
How you get "more DPS" without BR is beyond me. Sure, it'll seem that way if your group is slow to stack and execute the regime but the fact of the matter is that it does *not* lower DPS and only increases it, both immediately and over time via the debuffs granted.

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BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

I find it funny that people complain about auto attack when most single player games do not have it. Such as fable, the elder scrolls, Zelda. And a few mmo, including DCUO.

I like brs for the simple fact its more free'er. And you still need to coordinate which br to use since you need to do them fast to prevent a long player limbo.

What people forget is not every ws in ffxi was a combo. This lead to alot of jobs getting benched due the inablility to do a skill chain with the set up.

Which is even more funny as that time went on people stop caring about skill chains and just set up dd zergfest with a PL.

Br are more free'er since there is really no "wrong" way to do it in a sence. Like having 2 basic attacks, or having 2 magic attacks. You don;t need anything specific so anyone can paricipate.

Whicxh was a flaw in ffxi which they tried to fix, since only a handful of job wetre "needed" for a party, and if you wasn't one of those job you didn't get a party. Unless it was a last resort.

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Plain and simple STFU damn near 2k posts and haven't even touched the game. So tired of seeing your crap posts and you don't know S***

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Originally Posted by Bled

Those are all sub categories of RPG, labeled as Action RPG, not the same as Final Fantasy XIV which is JRPG.

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FF14 is actually an JMMO not a JRPG.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

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You're totally wrong, there's no way you could do the same damage without using BR, even if all the people are spamming, also because the stamina system prevents you from doing it. Actually the fact that you are stuck during BR is great also because it lets you recharge your stamina gauge.
The increased damage for the WS during BR compensates by far the fact that you stop DPS for a short time.

And the automatic menu doesn't take away the challenge, you still have to pay attention, you can't just throw in you skill there has to be an order, if you fail in that order the mob won't take the debuff and all of the skills after your one won't be buffed.
In exemple, in order to get the biggest damage buff there can't be two skills of the same class next to each other, if you happen to do it you have to take the skill away from the BR and put it again in the correct order, wich takes time and cause a loss of DPS. Also, there are different type of battle regimen, people usually think in the WS buff BR you can throw in any WS you've got, wrong, if you put in a WS from a class that is not yours you change the BR type into the "cross-class" one, that will cause a big loss in the increase of damage of the next skills. Last thing, the most important, you can get the damage buff even outside of the BR if you perform a skill at the same time it is released; this means that the tanker and the healers can join too and also that those that starts the BR can throw in 2 WS at once if they are trained to timing and cooperation (and to me this resemble a lot the SC/MB system a lot of people are asking for...) and obviousely if they have enough TP, wich adds more strategy making the classes that generate more TP start the BR.
Add the fact that in order to do massive damage everyone has to be properly buffed, this requires a lot of tactic due to the fact that you're stuck after joining: if everyone starts to buff after the Defense Down BR is performed the debuff will get off before the WS BR is release, so you want only the people that close the second one to join the first one, while those that open the second one starts buffing; this thing wouldn't exist if you were able to buff yourself after joining BR.

To get a perfect and fast BR with both defense and magic defense down debuff, all of the people buffed, the people outside BR joining too (and buffed too) is really hard. Knowing all of this things how can you say it isn't challenging?

SO. I was the last entry in a 6 person BR with Riot blade. 2374 damage!~!!

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

personally who cares. You guys are over critical anyway.

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You're the one who brought other games into it trying to make an argument.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

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So you're telling me you'll have the capability to pull off multiple 2k+ damage skills within the matter of 2~4 seconds it should take to stack and execute a BR? Sure, maybe on a Lv1 mob.
Yes, there is indeed a limbo, though one that is so minuscule that it doesn't detract from DPS whatsoever, especially when there is an effect of 3~10x the normal damage following directly after a "limbo" of less than a few seconds.
I don't see where you get the notion that it takes no skill to plan and execute a BR; it clearly does seeing as you've tried before and failed to execute it properly whereas I picked it up right away.

I invite you to re-examine the following images and continue with your asinine statements:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._3974065_n.jpg
2361 on a higher level mob. (Thanks for the image in the other thread Chard.)
and then:

http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/113092734-4.jpg

Wait, what? A 3k+ attack executed in a matter of seconds? Oh and look at that, a JP player saying BRs are fun? Imagine that.
Again, whatever limbo of a second or two there may be "detracting" from DPS, BR returns that ten-fold granted your group isn't a bit on the slow side and leaves you in queue for more than 3-5 seconds

I think what the op was trying to say is if both of you where fighting an mob with certain amount of hp and, would not die after 1 BR and u both input them in 2 secs the people with AA would do more dmg over time than the people without it cause they are attacking during the cuing session.

Look.... people... as long as people stop actively rebelling against the BR system, and participate with whatever skill they can offer QUICKLY, you will proceed to rape any encounter. It doesnt take much to click the BR button, then click an attack skill. You would be suprised how quickly your whole party can add a skill to the br. MAGES TOO. slackers..

fact of the matter is, if you can't do BRs correctly, you're going to hate them. If you can do them correctly, you will love them. What we see here is a ton of people who can't do them correctly and are extremely butthurt that GOOD players can. I suggest you all go do some 4-5star leves and test out BRs. This "training" will help make you a better player and it will help make my eyes stop beating themselves from having to read your posts.

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Originally Posted by Reika

It doesnt take much to click the BR button, then click an attack skill. You would be suprised how quickly your whole party can add a skill to the br. MAGES TOO. slackers..

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Not to mention it's even quicker on a controller! Highlight the skill, hit the emote menu button. Your skill is now queued up for BR, unfortunately you still have to hit G to initiate.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Not to mention it's even quicker on a controller! Highlight the skill, hit the emote menu button. Your skill is now queued up for BR, unfortunately you still have to hit G to initiate.

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Exactly!
There's also the shift key+skill and middle mouse button options!
Wow, it's so damn complicated huh? Kids these days...

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Originally Posted by Dubont

fact of the matter is, if you can't do BRs correctly, you're going to hate them. If you can do them correctly, you will love them. What we see here is a ton of people who can't do them correctly and are extremely butthurt that GOOD players can. I suggest you all go do some 4-5star leves and test out BRs. This "training" will help make you a better player and it will help make my eyes stop beating themselves from having to read your posts.

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You can input some random ass BR's and still get debuffs. The point is, 8 person BR is more damage then 8 single attacks without it.

Hell. basic attack + WS (Different) gets you defense debuff. Basic attack + basic attack (Same) gets you attack debuff. It is not complicated folks lol.

Oh, you can put basic attacks in BR!