[suggestion] Bring back skillchains/magic bursts

Again, them being weak or powerful isn't the matter. We all know that they can be powerful. The problem is that they're not *intuitive*
Intuitiveness is an important asset to a MMORPG combat system.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Again, them being weak or powerful isn't the matter. We all know that they can be powerful. The problem is that they're not *intuitive*
Intuitiveness is an important asset to a MMORPG combat system.

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But you have to agree that if it's not intuitive the best solution is to let everyone know how it works rather then scrap it and bringin in its place something older...

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but i think the main issue is about communication, not about the BR

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Originally Posted by Alcide

But you have to agree that if it's not intuitive the best solution is to let everyone know how it works rather then scrap it and bringin in its place something older...

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but i think the main issue is about communication, not about the BR

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Nope. When something isn't intuitive the best solution is to make it intuitive :D

Posting an article in a forum/website explains something doesn't necessarily make it intuitive. The whole definition of intuitive involves people getting a mechanic thanks to intuition, because it's logical and natural, instead of having to go and read the manual :D

I agree, things need to be intuitive. Yes, I can learn how to do it from a manual. I'd prefer a few simple instructions in game, or just something easier to figure out and use.

*agree with original post. Skill Chains and Magic Bursts were much more effective, easier in a sense to execute, and were much less en-cumbersome. Especially without an auto attack feature, everything kind of just stops while people try to get their regimen in order.

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If they could allow us to reserve Stamina/MP(etc) while stacking for that ability YET continue to execute other abilities then it would help a bit.
Then once someone executes the regimen it would take priority over anything you were trying to do.

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This would make Battle Regimen just perfect.

I think people may be missing the inherent problem Skill chains had. It may not be as much of an issue now, as parties will generall be smaller (4-8);however, in parties with multiple players Skill chains REQUIRED other players not participating to hold back their damage while a skill chain was taking place. Effectively forcing other players to do less in order to not screw up the skill chain. Turns out, this was not effective, in fact, it was more effective to constantly throw out a random succession of attacks as quickly as possible. In the end, aside from the accidental occurences, skill chains were largely ignored. *note in some situations skill chains were highly effective such as battlefields BCNM/ENM/Assault/Limbus etc but were still smaller parties*

Battle regimen on the other hand, allows MANY players to participate very quickly. I do not know if theres is a maximum # of participants outside the number of allowable players in a party;however, you could potentially have 15 well coordinated players perform a battle regimen together in the same time frame of two players. So, I'm sorry, but battle regimens are extremely effective and certainly more effective than skill chains.

HOWEVER BR still leaves something to be desired. Lackluster animations/ high learning curve etc...

That said, I would say the battle regimen is an improvement of the Skill chain system, aside from the mentioned shortfalls.

Again. Effectiveness isn't exactly the problem or the issue here.

Something that almost no one uses because it's not intuitive is, anyway, automatically less effective than something everyone uses.

Skillchains were extensively used in FFXI until ways to deal more damage have been added. Balance the damage to make skillchaining desirable, and you can be sure people will use them.
On the other hand Battle Regimen can do (and actually do) as much damage as you like, but due to their lack of intutiveness, a vast minority uses them.

In large groups skillchains were more difficult to execute, but in large groups and raid contents is actually where coordination should be more required.

Whole heartedly agree with OP.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

I think people may be missing the inherent problem Skill chains had. It may not be as much of an issue now, as parties will generall be smaller (4-8);however, in parties with multiple players Skill chains REQUIRED other players not participating to hold back their damage while a skill chain was taking place. Effectively forcing other players to do less in order to not screw up the skill chain. Turns out, this was not effective, in fact, it was more effective to constantly throw out a random succession of attacks as quickly as possible. In the end, aside from the accidental occurences, skill chains were largely ignored. *note in some situations skill chains were highly effective such as battlefields BCNM/ENM/Assault/Limbus etc but were still smaller parties*

Battle regimen on the other hand, allows MANY players to participate very quickly. I do not know if theres is a maximum # of participants outside the number of allowable players in a party;however, you could potentially have 15 well coordinated players perform a battle regimen together in the same time frame of two players. So, I'm sorry, but battle regimens are extremely effective and certainly more effective than skill chains.

HOWEVER BR still leaves something to be desired. Lackluster animations/ high learning curve etc...

That said, I would say the battle regimen is an improvement of the Skill chain system, aside from the mentioned shortfalls.

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Nothing prevents FF11 from doing infinite skill changes, nothing prevents repeating light from non relic weapons, nothing prevents 200 people skill chains.

They are there because the battle planners designed limits to such things.

It's not damage that's the issue here.

It's just that BR is shallow, and convoluted. And that's that. Trying to fix BR is hard right now because the idea behind it is really shallow. It has to be less spammy, more fluid, and more intuitive (and the bugs ugh).

In a single idea, BR is a coordinated, dog pile.

I used to agree with the OP until I learned how to use BRs. As someone said earlier, I think the main reason why many people don't use them is because it's not really required when you're doing leves. A lot of fights while leveling are pretty short and don't require the use of BRs. This sorta changed with the SP patch. Now that there's more SP groups, I find myself using BRs a lot more than before, and they're great. I don't think they should take out BRs. They should just add more challenging fights at lower ranks that require the use of them.

Skillchains and magicbursts won't fit in this current battle system. TP gain is a lot faster so people can use weaponskills more often. People would have to hold back their weaponskills to not interupt skillchains.
SE can also be very creative with BRs. They could add more debuffs/buffs in the future that the party could use through BRs, and they could easily add awesome ideas like the chrono trigger idea that someone posted earlier. It would be awesome to see something like Fire II + Stone II = Meteor or something lol.

There's a lot of potential in the BR system... lets wait and see what they do with it.

Absolutely bring back skillchains and magic bursts.

so we can conclude what lacks from BR are:
1. Urgency to use it in normal leves/grind
2. Lack of animation
3. Socialization to user about BR mechanic

any other?

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Originally Posted by Aion

so we can conclude what lacks from BR are:
1. Urgency to use it in normal leves/grind
2. Lack of animation
3. Socialization to user about BR mechanic

any other?

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That's your take, by devaluating opinions of certain portions of this thread.
my take:
Shallow
spammy
unintuitive
Let's not forget disruptive.

FFXI skillchain would be better except that instead of how they had elemental debuffing, they should have detrimental effect like FFXIV does, like def down, atk down, increase TP, increase mag dmg etc.

Using BR is a must for end game NMs in FFXIV but no one enjoys it, we do it because it helps increase the ws dmg, and we do it thru using ventrillo, i can assume it would be cumbersome to do it using pt chat....

i liked the skillchain and magic burst from FFXI
i think it should be put in FFXIV as it was with better animation moves and the statut effect down thing

but i also think we could at the same time keep the automatic battle regimen but for another purpose.
my dream would be to have a system of combo comparable with the chrono trigger system

2 weapons skills become another one with a new animation between the two characters

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTOmqgXjC2g

it could be set with old battle regimen system
and keep the simple debuff with another system : renkei from FFXI

I don't think replacing a system that is easy to participate in, enables rapid gains in damage, and type oriented instead of individual attribute oriented with a system that is not casual player friendly and simply lacks the punch of the other is a good idea in the end.

I've used regimen since it got fixed in November, all my friends use regimen when they can, all my friends friends use regimen when they can. Every single "endgame" LS on my server uses regimen when engaged with NMs. My (good) EXP parties have used it. The regimen system is far more simple than it initially sounds, and everyone whom I've went through the regimen system with come to love it and can't wait for the next monster to jump in on it. Every single person I know would hate to see Skillchains/magic bursts reintroduced because regimen is too powerful a tool not to have. My mages also don't need to wait for the regimen to fully execute to do full damage, they can hop right in.

Granted, a good argument that regimens are not really a requirement for leve parties until the R40s, probably why it seems like nobody uses them, but regimen are used frequently in any good high level party, and if said party is not using it, consider bringing it up, you kills will proceed much faster (unless it glitches.)

Making the point that regimens require minimal communication is also fairly moot. Many of my EXP parties established a solid plan and a regimen order that was followed pretty strictly without question. It's no different then establishing the WS order for the fight skillchain, and then declaring your TP with a macro. This time around, you perform the neccesary defense down ailments, then call your WS for others to stack above you. You push different buttons.

Besides, a few good points were made - TP has changed significantly since XI. You can execute multiple weaponskills in succession now, and I love the ability to do this, as it facilitates good soloing and enables TP to power moves such as Haymaker/Jarring Strike/Fracture. We couldn't get a skillchain system without some great facets of the battle system being dumbed down to accommodate something that for all intents and purposes was designed for a slower pace of battle.

I'm also not a fan of getting Liquefaction instead of fusion because someone jumped the gun, thus prolonging the fight.

I don't personally enjoy the current system but there are ways to have the best of both worlds. I would prefer a SC/MB type system because we won't have to queue our attacks and have so many people just standing there waiting for others to join. It should just be similar to SC in that we organize who is doing what and do that without having to queue, and allowing MB's to do additional damage on top. However it can be similar to a regimen as far as how it gives debuffs on the mob.

Plus, they could add in the awesome effects like the Light and Dark skill chains I just never got bored of seeing.

I don't like how people seem to feel that just because the current system as it is doesn't work quite the way you want it, you want to scrap the whole thing just to bring back in a system from FFXI. The current battle regimen system does need a little work but I think it's a huge improvement over the FFXI system. The SC/MB system was hard to organize and I don't think will work well with FFXIV. I proposed a change in another thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...men-Suggestion that I think would solve most of the issues people have with BR. As far as having better animations etc. that is just a matter of upgrading the current system not scrapping it for something else.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

While I tried hard to use and enjoy Battle Regimes, I find their implementation rather convoluted and cumbersome. The level of steps required is too high, and in the end lag doesn't help.

I would suggest bringing back skillchains from FFXI.

Mind you, I'm not one of those that advocates turning FFXIV into FFXI-2, but when you make a sequel porting over certain staples of the previous game isn't a bad thing, is it?
I think skillchains are one of those staples.

Their usage and execution was much more intuitive and immediate than Battle Regimes, they didn't require additional cumbersome steps, and they simply were the best balance possible between fun, simplicity and complexity. :D

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I agree wholeheartedly. Especially with the lack of auto attack. It's like the entire party just freezes actions for about 4-6 seconds while everyone tries to get the BR in order, and a lot of times it still doesn't work right.

With skillchain+magicburst, you work together, your regular actions are not hindered, and it requires people to actually know their class and what they are doing in their current Role to excel.

Overall = in favor

If you put in skill chains it will mean forcing all non participants to stop using anything other than auto attack in order to not screw up the skill chain.

FFXIV =/= FFXI: Most of your damage does NOT come from Attacks, and WS's are fire more frequently. Skill chains just are not feasible in this game unless you dramatically change either the skill chain system or the battle system.

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Originally Posted by MagicofGaia

I agree wholeheartedly. Especially with the lack of auto attack. It's like the entire party just freezes actions for about 4-6 seconds while everyone tries to get the BR in order, and a lot of times it still doesn't work right.

With skillchain+magicburst, you work together, your regular actions are not hindered, and it requires people to actually know their class and what they are doing in their current Role to excel.

Overall = in favor

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Okay ill reiterate the suggestion I made http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...men-Suggestion since no one seemed to read it. You don't need to dramatically change anything to make the current BR system work. When you stack an ability you set aside the stamina required for that ability, so your stamina bar would have a greyed out section or however they want to visualize it. You would then be able to use the remainder of your stamina bar just as you normally would to attack with your ability still stacked. Once the BR is activated the set aside stamina is used and the greyed out section is returned to you and battle continues to keep going. This removes the break in combat flow caused by the current system which I think is the only real problem with it other than the stupid bug that causes you not to be able to activate a BR.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

If you put in skill chains it will mean forcing all non participants to stop using anything other than auto attack in order to not screw up the skill chain.

FFXIV =/= FFXI: Most of your damage does NOT come from Attacks, and WS's are fire more frequently. Skill chains just are not feasible in this game unless you dramatically change either the skill chain system or the battle system.

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Correct! FFXIV isn't FFXI and skillchains actually would have no place here, even after implementation of auto-attack. Adding skillchain would be just as bad as battle regimen since the skill spam would keep breaking chain and/or generating different chain than planned.

I know most people would say it's bad and stuff (FFXIII haters everywhere), but i believe a dynamic system like FFXIII stagger system would fit FFXIV like a glove. We don't need the progressive damage increase like stagger system had because we have TP here, but SE could add specific actions that generate a chain effect regardless of order, like there.

I'd suggest something like a trigger action (a weaponskill that have major TP cost and minor damage, used just to trigger the chain effect), after that any weaponskill being allowed, with enhanced accuracy, damage and effect and having specific weaponskills and spells that could be used exclusively during it (would fail if used while the monster isn't in "chain mode") that are the ones that have the role of dealing optimal damage during chain and generating battle regimen based on sequence (it would just keep getting the longest sequence of skills and generating the respective effects at monster) in exchange of heavy TP cost of these skills. Could even made the same effect stacking in x3 just like some weaponskill/skill effects does so if all sequences happen to generate the same effect the repeated effects wouldn't be wasted.

To finish, just like there is a skill to trigger the chain, there should be a skill to finish the chain, dealing extra damage based on the damage dealt during chain and removing the chain effect (you wouldn't need a chain effect to continue if everyone already burned their TP, so a finish skill would bring a bonus for those team that worked properly and finished the chain in time, dealing extra damage to monster).

It might sound complex, but would be very simple to be used...much more than battle regimen or skillchain ever was and would be perfectly usable in every situation, no matter if its a party of 2 players or if we have a dynamis-like horde of 60+ players, no matter if its a blue marked monster or a HNM.

I'm Sorry but how is this not intuitive at all?

use a macro you hit 1 bloody button +ctrl

seriously you want the game to play itself

/p Going into DMG BR MODE
/ac "Still Precision" <me>
/br
/ac "Red Lotus" <t>

and you're done other melee follow and throw some mages in to close it . . .
No offence but seriously how hard is that to co-ordinate?

Now if players are lazy to have prepped macro's then that is their own fault

everything is nicely queued, timing is done, and it goes off and monster goes boom.

try it and play with it a little. Our ls uses them all the time, we use them on leve's at a harder level and on nm's
grinding efts for amazing sp has never been easier.

Hell in a 3 person party we trio efts all day long using ws+ws+nuke

and it works and the effects are devastating 1 br and 60-75% hp of your enemy is gone

in a 4 person pt 2 melee + 2 mage we rotate mages on healing duty and it still works

The problem isn't how intuitive it is. Battle regimen main problem is that its slow for the pace of this game fights. If you stop4~6 seconds to set a br you often will have the monster dying or being almost dead by the time you get it going.

You're using as example minimal sized parties (2~4 members) but its easy to be done with small parties...now try and set it in a group of 8+ players...it will be chaos. You will spend 10~15 seconds setting a battle regimen and often someone will screw it.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

The problem isn't how intuitive it is. Battle regimen main problem is that its slow for the pace of this game fights. If you stop4~6 seconds to set a br you often will have the monster dying or being almost dead by the time you get it going.

You're using as example minimal sized parties (2~4 members) but its easy to be done with small parties...now try and set it in a group of 8+ players...it will be chaos. You will spend 10~15 seconds setting a battle regimen and often someone will screw it.

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Obviousely you have to be smart and do them when they are needed, if the mob has few hp don't waste time :D

Personally I don't have any problem with the time needed to perform it: when ppl start to stack skills those that will close the BR can buff and when the BR is release those that started will have the whole stamina gauge filled wich is not something to understimate.

Honestly I think BR gives to the whole battle system more tactics then most of the players think.

As for the people screwing it up... well you can't help it, there will always be someone doing it with everything, even in XI there were parties were i was spamming "TP ready, Skillchain startin in 5 secs, skill->skill ->SC" and noone was doing anything ^^'

I hate regiment because of the whole queue system

You have to turn it on, then queue your skills, then you're stuck waiting until the next guy does, you cant do anything unless you cancel it or die, and sometimes people are slow, especially if playing with randomers its complete rubbish. The skillchain system was far far better, its all automatic, you just say "do x skill after me" you hit the skill (you dont turn it on...) and hope he goes after in time, if not at least you aint stuck waiting around dying you can just try again.

And the sound it makes is god horrible.

I think Battle Regimen is just awkward to use compared to Skillchains and Magic Bursts. For SCs it was simple, use a weapon skill after someone else's weapon skills. Then MB by casting a black magic spell after it. It was also easy to see when it all worked because you got an awesome skillchain effect (like Light and the swirling white globe). BR's, on the other hand, are more complicated because there are a LOT more skills that come into play and you get no awesome effect after as a confirmation of success. SCs felt more tactical as well, as BRs are semi automated. Also BRs are awkward because you need to stop what you're doing and reach over with the mouse to hit the little button, the flow is ruined.

Just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by snowstriker

I think Battle Regimen is just awkward to use compared to Skillchains and Magic Bursts. For SCs it was simple, use a weapon skill after someone else's weapon skills. Then MB by casting a black magic spell after it. It was also easy to see when it all worked because you got an awesome skillchain effect (like Light and the swirling white globe). BR's, on the other hand, are more complicated because there are a LOT more skills that come into play and you get no awesome effect after as a confirmation of success. SCs felt more tactical as well, as BRs are semi automated. Also BRs are awkward because you need to stop what you're doing and reach over with the mouse to hit the little button, the flow is ruined.

Just my 2 cents

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Based on what your saying the solution would just be to add some cool effect and make sure it doesn't ruin the flow of battle. Why would we need to completely scrap the current system to get that?

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Originally Posted by edgar131

Based on what your saying the solution would just be to add some cool effect and make sure it doesn't ruin the flow of battle. Why would we need to completely scrap the current system to get that?

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Honestly i think if there was a flashy animation noone would have ever complained >.>

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Originally Posted by edgar131

Based on what your saying the solution would just be to add some cool effect and make sure it doesn't ruin the flow of battle. Why would we need to completely scrap the current system to get that?

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The problem with this is: how do you avoid it ruining the flow of battle (and make it more intuitive possibly), without basically turning it into a skillchain-like system that's named battle regimen?

Mind you, I'd be entirely fine with that. I care not what a system is named.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

If you put in skill chains it will mean forcing all non participants to stop using anything other than auto attack in order to not screw up the skill chain.

FFXIV =/= FFXI: Most of your damage does NOT come from Attacks, and WS's are fire more frequently. Skill chains just are not feasible in this game unless you dramatically change either the skill chain system or the battle system.

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Good news! We're changing the battle system. Ya...we didn't like the battle system much either. So... shoo shoo BR.

All the more reason to change BR now isn't there.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The problem with this is: how do you avoid it ruining the flow of battle (and make it more intuitive possibly), without basically turning it into a skillchain-like system that's named battle regimen?

Mind you, I'd be entirely fine with that. I care not what a system is named.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...men-Suggestion

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Originally Posted by edgar131

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...men-Suggestion

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It sounds interesting, but it doesn't make the BR system intuitive.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

It sounds interesting, but it doesn't make the BR system intuitive.

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It's so you can stab the enemy while dog piling.

In general people aren't looking for tweaks. That didn't work for many of the other problems, or people wouldn't be giving the game such low scores.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

It's so you can stab the enemy while dog piling.

In general people aren't looking for tweaks. That didn't work for many of the other problems, or people wouldn't be giving the game such low scores.

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Really? A lot of the 'tweaks' that they have made have fixed a lot of problems. The changes to the market wards have basically completely removed the need for an AH. The recent changes to local leve's and doing the synth's for requested items is a really nice improvement. The SP changes from a month or 2 ago shut everyone up about experience (except the ones who complain that you get too much now). Honestly I think they are doing a good job so far I'm just hoping they don't listen to a lot of the stupid fans and start getting rid of what actually does work instead of just making the few fixes needed to make it great. By the way all the scores were given long before any patches that fixed anything came out.

Battle Regiments are very useful and in some cases absolutly critical, if you dont want to wipe during some nm's..Battle Regiments are very easy tbh.Coordination among everyone can be the hard part, until everyone knows there duty.. To my knowlege there are 3 debuffs that can be done in battle regiment .. 1. Tp Down(attack to Weaponskill)- 2. Att.def down(Attack to attack) and 3. magic/def down.( attack to Spiritdart or phantom dart ect.)....In all fight there is no reason"unless situational" for your group to not have attackdown and magic down on the mob at all times..Tp Down is optional in some cases and very vital in some cases.. For people trying to get a grasp on battle regiments you may find it usefull to know that multiple debuffs can be applied in one regiment"all 3 as a matter of fact". Can be applied in one regiment.And It also does not matter if there was an imroper skills applied before or after the "correctly placed skill to cause a debuff" to get the debuff.For a example Attack to Weaposnkill causes Tp down. Lets say your party was desperate for tp down and you call out tp down and 2 people accidentally!! threw in the wrong skills to start or close ..So your regiment looks like this spirit dart- Brutal Swing-Light Thrust-Concussive Blow-Thunder...Okay so you initiate the regiment.If The LightThrustand Concussive Blow land then you will have tp down because that was attack to Weaposnkill.. If interested here is an example of solid Battle Regiment when tp down is needed the whole fight.. start off with ATT ATT ATT DART DART... this will allow for DEf down And magic Def down in one.There was an extra att and an extra dart applied incase one or 2 people miss.The chances are when doing this- most of the time you will get enough people landing there attacks to get those 2 debuffs in the opening regiment...Then This would be followed Att- WS-WS - WS - WS- Ws - WS- Magic _Magic..This regiment would be you Big time dmg with magic burst at the end, and tp down since you got the ATT-WS part in at the beggining of the regiment..If doing this i would reccomend a pug or some with high acc to start that regiment. This way you will minimize the chance of missing on the regular attack that opens this regiment- causing you to not get tp down .I mentioned puf because they get 2 chances at landing a blow with on basic attack." _ Little Secret _ You can magic burst outside the regiment if timed rite at the end of regiment perfectly. this goes for Weaposnkills as well . Please note when i say magic burst ,I am just referring to a highly modified Dmg Output. there is no visual for this and no message telling you this.But when you spell that hits for an nm for 80 Dmg outside of a regiment normally and now suddenly hits for 600" then you will know you got it" /wink takes a little practice , only because you have to anticipate when the Br is going to be iniated by some one else have your magic hitting at the same time he closes it.

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Originally Posted by edgar131

Really? A lot of the 'tweaks' that they have made have fixed a lot of problems. The changes to the market wards have basically completely removed the need for an AH. The recent changes to local leve's and doing the synth's for requested items is a really nice improvement. The SP changes from a month or 2 ago shut everyone up about experience (except the ones who complain that you get too much now). Honestly I think they are doing a good job so far I'm just hoping they don't listen to a lot of the stupid fans and start getting rid of what actually does work instead of just making the few fixes needed to make it great. By the way all the scores were given long before any patches that fixed anything came out.

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Cue heated discussions on market wards : no it's not fixed.
Cue how we had to wipe out the old SP system and then patch it serveral times(we're still patching it).

So tweaks that fix those problems have cost us (adding beta rant times) 6 months for the results which not everyone is satisfied with.

Ya...those tweaks are really bring back the game from death...

BTW i wrote that last length post and never gave my opinon on the topic.I personally like the freedom of the oldschool way But at the same have enjoyed watching incredible dmg at the hands of a well executed BR. I would vote to kepp Br if they can manage a way to allow you to not be locked in it the whole time and Give us some sweet animations like 11 had. If this could happen i would actually see Br as the superior . If not _ Give me back my skill chains. Speaking of chains ) - what was so wrong with XP chains, give us that back for sure)

They are both basically the same function.

Skillchains just occur automatically when certain conditions are met. Battle Regimens have to stop the flow of battle and specifically line them up.

To be honest, I feel like Skillchains / Magic Bursts are the superior method. It's more free, and requires that the group is more dynamic, as well as allowing for combat to continue at a normal pace. It really is a pain in the arse to stop what we're doing to try and get this clunky thing to work. We've even died a few times because we stood still too long.