Idea to fix the lack of tanks in the duty finder

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Originally Posted by Briegg

Once I hit max level, on my DRGN i'll reclass to a healuh. never really tried being a healer in other games, so it'll be interesting

I'll probably get a lot of people killed.

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Your not a true healer until you get your party wiped lol...

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Originally Posted by fallacy55

Maybe it has to do with the fact that SE decided to make the least played MMO roles, also the most BORING and UN-FULFILLING. Give the tanks and healers more to do in combat and make them less boring.

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Tanking is actually really pretty complex and fulfilling even from the early levels. As MRD, maintaining enmity while keeping up the Maim buff and managing TP is demanding enough, and it only gets more complex as you go on.

The issue isn't with it being boring. The issue is with tanking being 1) more responsibility, and 2) being more challenging. Anyone can play a bad dps, and a Good tank or a good healer can each make up (either too eager or too weak DPS). But a good DPS can't make up for a bad tank or bad healer. DPS ultimately has the least responsibility like in all MMO's.

The bigger issue is the lack of healers since Arc isn't classified as one despite being perfectly capable of doing so early on.

I do find that while queuing up in the DF as a tank I get a party within seconds for low, high and story roulettes. But when I ever want to run as DPS it can go for hours and hours and hours before a tank comes along. There must be a gigantic shortage of them :P.

I have also found, a lot, that the L50 players that are going through the dungeons to unlock the next one, or doing the story (because they've been FATE-racing) have absolutely no idea how to play their jobs at all. Most of these wear ilvl90 items too. This mostly goes for derp DPS, but also other tanks (When I do encounter them! x)). And they always get offended when you bring it to their attention.

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Originally Posted by fallacy55

No one is playing tanks or healers?

Hmmmm...

Maybe it has to do with the fact that SE decided to make the least played MMO roles, also the most BORING and UN-FULFILLING. Give the tanks and healers more to do in combat and make them less boring.

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You want to make my role as healer even more busy than it already is?
Come back with your opinion when you've actually participated as healer in a number of dungeons or guildhests...

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Originally Posted by fallacy55

No one is playing tanks or healers?

Hmmmm...

Maybe it has to do with the fact that SE decided to make the least played MMO roles, also the most BORING and UN-FULFILLING. Give the tanks and healers more to do in combat and make them less boring.

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Warrior isn't boring in the SLIGHTEST.

...now Paladins on the other hand, I agree with.

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Originally Posted by Rymia

Pets die in seconds if you try this on the later game stuff.

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This is actually not true. The biggest problem with summoner or arcanist tanking is that there are very few aoe enmity gaining abilities for the pets, and if the pet goes in first everything goes straight to the summoner.

I've done AK with Summoner Summoner Summoner Scholar before, and it's quite fun, Titan's hp is based off of yours when you summon him, so with crafted or tank accessories you can see him around 8-9k hp on a well geared summoner or 6-7k on a decently geared one.

This idea actually has a lot of merit, but it would require a re-working of how pet aggro works and it would also require a lot of coordination from the party as a whole. So maybe not best for random Duty Roulette.

Though really the problem is that there are twice as many dps classes as there are tanks or healers and the party size of 4 means that you have to have 2 dps per tank/healer.

Even if Tanks and Healers were played by everyone, sooner or later no one would need exp on them. And the 100philo/10mytho from Low level duty roulette isn't going to convince me to play my level 50 tanks in lower dungeons any time soon.

I think the shortage is not a result of people not wanting to play war or pld, but due to the stress and expectations associated with tanking. In the event an arcanist is made a viable tank, it will face similar issue of people not playing it because they just dont want to be the guy that accidentally messes up hate and wipe the whole party.

this is a class design problem. not just in FF XIV.

a class design problem that is present in NEARLY EVERY "Trinity-based" MMO.

it is a very specific problem. and the problem is this:

In nearly every Trinity Based MMO, there are 1, or 2 primary "tank" classes, that go along the same styles. 1 is a sword/board, the other is a 2H-based "berserker" type.

there are 1, or 2 primary "heal" classes that go along the same style. 1 is a Priest type with "holy magic" of some sort. the other is a "nature" based druid or shaman type.

there are 4567289387646829336 "DPS" classes that can neither tank or heal, but do great damage in a vast multitude of different, fun, and awesome ways, and contain various interesting mechanics that make them fun to play.

this is basic MMO class design, and nearly every Trinity MMO follows it, especially during the game's launch window.

and as long as this is the case, until this basic class design is altered, challenged, and changed there will ALWAYS be a shortage of tanks and healers. I look to RIFT for an example of challenging this basic design, where each of the basic classic MMO class "Archetypes" (Warrior, Mage, Rogue, Priest) had classes that could do one of the three trinity functions. (Yes, Rogue tank, and boy was it fun. Yes, Warrior Healer)

Note that I am not talking about players here, I am talking about Classes.

TLDR = plainly and simply, DPS always outnumbers tanks/healers 5 to 1, because there are always far too many DPS classes and far too few tank/heal classes included in a MMO's basic class design.

As a Tank I would say the problem is that it's too easy to complete anything serious in DF as a Tank. On the other hand as a Player with multiple Battle Class jobs leveled I don't want to be relegated to a Tank ALL the time. Normally when I log on the first thing I do is use my Tank to take care of any serious instance needs like capping Philo or Myth. When I try to attempt to use Party Finder as a DoW most of the slots get taken so quick I don't even have a chance to decide and if I do I sit around waiting for a tank. There is also the fact that if you tank for your FC/LS and friends and all they do is want you to tank it gets boring.

It's funny but whenever they ask who wants to do an instance run everyone plays hot potato with the Tanking role. AND After being a tank you get spoiled to having fast ques, so if we don't need something most of us will do something else or get our own groups before we wait 10+ mins (in reality 25+) for a Duty finder Pop.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

I would assume the reason is alot of healer/tanks don't want to play with all those Jerks in the Duty Finder and run with their own groups ^^

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totally agree

I think it's likely two main problems:

1. Tanks jobs are intentionally made more difficult. Having to tab target to check enmity doesn't exactly make it easy on tanks. An Omen (WoW addon) type of interface that has the AoE mode would be the best.

2. Damage dealers more often than not don't really care if they're making it harder for tanks. For example, out of every 5 DD who attack the wrong target, only 1 will notice. The other 4 just keep on attacking the wrong target. Also DRGs and BRDs who attack the moment I run in, MNKs who are on-target faster than I am, etc.

So tanking already has a higher barrier to entry than other roles, add to that the unforgiving environment that tanks have to live through, is what's making people shy away from tanking.

I believe there are a lot of people wanting to try out tanking, but they don't have the opportunity to practice. They don't want to "waste other people's time" by practicing in DF or so. So in the end they stay away.

If the community is in general very forgiving of newbie tanks, willing to offer tips, then there are probably many more tanks now.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpartan

The reason we're not seeing duty finder doing well is that few people are bothering to use it

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A big reason is because there's little incentive to queue up after hitting mythology cap for the week. The loot is obsolete for most people, gil bonus is meager and the items bought with philosophy tomes aren't very valuable these days.

As much as I hated it, something like the grab bag system from WoW would bring in more queues at least until everyone gets what they want out of it.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I think it's likely two main problems:

So tanking already has a higher barrier to entry than other roles, add to that the unforgiving environment that tanks have to live through, is what's making people shy away from tanking.

I believe there are a lot of people wanting to try out tanking, but they don't have the opportunity to practice. They don't want to "waste other people's time" by practicing in DF or so. So in the end they stay away.

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What I don't get is that we have an enemy list that shows all aggressive targets, and whether we have threat on them or not. They use a red icon, a green one and a ! warning symbol. This could have easily also shown threat on target, that or have an icon or bar above the enemy's heads below their hp, but instead we have to play guessing games.

One thing to keep in mind is that while the levels between 15-49 may be lacking tanks/healers in the DF, at top level there is no real shortage of them. FC's have their core tanks and healers and good DPS is needed. I belive part of the intention of roulette was to help see the needed classes inside the dungeon queues more often, and to be honest, it is working as intended. Leveling up a lower level DPS class, I have seen little wait for the queue.

But in the end it really matters little. If you are farming tomes for gear and you have not pigeon holed yourself into one role you can farm as whatever happens to be needed in queue.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

I would assume the reason is alot of healer/tanks don't want to play with all those Jerks in the Duty Finder and run with their own groups ^^

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This right here. Cuz if you play with randoms if for any reason party fails or sumone its always tanks/healers fault.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I think it's likely two main problems:

1. Tanks jobs are intentionally made more difficult. Having to tab target to check enmity doesn't exactly make it easy on tanks. An Omen (WoW addon) type of interface that has the AoE mode would be the best.

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Tanking isn't hard. At all. More gear dependant? Tank has always been that way. Only other role which would be pushing the enmity is a healer, which using defensive CDs reduces that. DDs are easy to keep above, until the BLM gets a double flare crit too early XD. I find MNK needs more awareness during boss fights than tank due to positioning and dodging unmarked AE whilst maintaining GL3.

Not done turn 5 so can't comment on that, But upto turn 4 theres nothing really challenging for a tank. Turn 4 is about your DPS burning each wave before the next one pops. Tanks job is just holding them so DPS can do that.

"Hardest" part is defensive CDs and knowing to optimise usage of them prior to spikes in damage to help mitigate.

Healers have it hardest on movement intensive fights, eg Titan.

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Originally Posted by Xieveral

A big reason is because there's little incentive to queue up after hitting mythology cap for the week. The loot is obsolete for most people, gil bonus is meager and the items bought with philosophy tomes aren't very valuable these days.

As much as I hated it, something like the grab bag system from WoW would bring in more queues at least until everyone gets what they want out of it.

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Yup. And if you're in a company that does Coil, you myth cap very quickly. Before 2.1 I would hit the cap usually by Wednesday evening. Now? I hit the cap Tuesday after Turn 2, because I've already run LotA a few times, did two days of roulette and probably helped a company member with a dungeon of some type at least once or twice.

It basically means I don't queue for endgame 4-player dungeons at all for the rest of the week, and since I always queue as a healer...

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Originally Posted by Mags

One thing to keep in mind is that while the levels between 15-49 may be lacking tanks/healers in the DF, at top level there is no real shortage of them. FC's have their core tanks and healers and good DPS is needed

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this , why level a tank if u arent going to raid with it because tank slots are taken in every other FC static ?

tanking CT sounds fun ,adds (skeletons ,atomos adds, bombs ect...) oh and towers, touching towers is the reason u have leveled a tank :rolleyes: