Tanaka or Yoshi?

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Originally Posted by Captaindownsyndrome

you know what I meant smart ass they should be more defined to one role you really are reaching what ever if it stays as it is it will fail. Tanaka F%^ked up, he did a great job on ff11 but he half assed ff14 and there really isnt a better word for it. he new what worked yet he used none of what he knew which baffles the hell out of me why go in such a wild direction.

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They shouldnt be defined (the classes), but I agree that they should allow for more definition and specialisation. If you bothered to read my post I said it was an ongoing process that requires time the original development team obviously didn't have. Being dismissive of the system as a whole just because the system needs tweaking is ridiculous.

Furthermore, that you would rather preserve the status quo, however boring and limiting, is what's really baffling about this situation. Tanaka's team should not be condemned for trying to improve the genre. There is a reason certain games succeed where others fail. And preserving the status quo while all the competition are innovating is a certain path to failure.

pere what really happen was techincal issues with the servers. Lauching the game as is was to help with that. While building the game up from it. they couldn't make or add much if they couldn't keep the servers from going nuts.

After launch ppl pretty much didn't like the game or the direction. ppl expected ffxi 2. And i mean a clone of ffxi. ffxiv was suppose to fixs flaws in ffxi that made it un popular. 1 being too time consuming 2 long waits for grouping due to needing only certain jobs leaving most benched. While adding to the good thing about ffxi fov pages, which are levequests in ffxi. (just stuck on a reset limit due to possible rmt abuse)

ffxiv was meant to be a fun easy going game for those who just want to have fun. Not have elitist players rule the game, like they did in ffxi. Which kinda stop being fun after a while tbh. sorry a big flaw in ffxi was the wait times due to the elitists. And being forced to plat a certain way or solo.

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Originally Posted by Captaindownsyndrome

guess have take word on that but your lead still gets blamed if your team screws up right because he leading you

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He stepped down, we know that much but we do not know what really went wrong.
It could be a budget problem, it could be a unrealistic time table, maybe they made a bad deal with outsourcing, who knows, there are lots of factors. being responsible for the team he sure is the one to get the heat but that still does not explain the issues. He is not the one designing everything. He is the one who might have the final word but its usually others who pitch him the ideas. If the battle mechanics are bull, who is to blame? Tanaka or the lead battle designer? or the programmer who had to code the features? Or the QA? Maybe its Tanakas Boss who is to blame? Who knows, we don't.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

pere what really happen was techincal issues with the servers. Lauching the game as is was to help with that. While building the game up from it. they couldn't make or add much if they couldn't keep the servers from going nuts.

After launch ppl pretty much didn't like the game or the direction. ppl expected ffxi 2. And i mean a clone of ffxi. ffxiv was suppose to fixs flaws in ffxi that made it un popular. 1 being too time consuming 2 long waits for grouping due to needing only certain jobs leaving most benched. While adding to the good thing about ffxi fov pages, which are levequests in ffxi. (just stuck on a reset limit due to possible rmt abuse)

ffxiv was meant to be a fun easy going game for those who just want to have fun. Not have elitist players rule the game, like they did in ffxi. Which kinda stop being fun after a while tbh. sorry a big flaw in ffxi was the wait times due to the elitists. And being forced to plat a certain way or solo.

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Almost all the things you say lately are crazy wrong.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Almost all the things you say lately are crazy wrong.

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no it what ppl forgot. I was following beta pretty closely. And seen alot of the cancled betas due to techninal issues. Even tanaka said there were just too many bugs that prevent alot of stuff. Making a joke that even if they delayed the game more bugs would need to be fixed.

not my fault ppl chose not to remember this and blindly hate a game claiming it was rushed. So some research. for once before assuming i'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

no it what ppl forgot. I was following beta pretty closely. And seen alot of the cancled betas due to techninal issues. Even tanaka said there were just too many bugs that prevent alot of stuff. Making a joke that even if they delayed the game more bugs would need to be fixed.

not my fault ppl chose not to remember this and blindly hate a game claiming it was rushed. So some research. for once before assuming i'm wrong.

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No, but what are you saying? Too many bugs meant the game was released early? That doesn't even begin to make sense.

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Tanaka or Yoshi?

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I want results.

I think its too early to tell regarding Yoshida.

I do think Tanaka was stuck in the past though and thats why we are seeing so many bad choices in FF14, he also came across a bit xenophobic on his twitter and in interviews.

I would have preferred they kept Tanaka at least as a consultant, but i understand it could have caused friction to have the previous lead watch his project being directed by someone else.

That said, i hope that when the game is back in shape Tanaka will be allowed to come back and contribute to the project again.... not! I want him to team up with Masato Kato and Yasunori Mitsuda and finally make me my Chrono Break, dammit!

And to go off-topic a little, i am a fan of Uematsu, but i think a game like FFXIV is better suited for Mitsuda's style, as i believe his music to be better at adding feeling where there is none. Uematsu is a master at exalting existing content, but his music feels empty to me in such an empty game.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

I would have preferred they kept Tanaka at least as a consultant, but i understand it could have caused friction to have the previous lead watch his project being directed by someone else.

That said, i hope that when the game is back in shape Tanaka will be allowed to come back and contribute to the project again.... not! I want him to team up with Masato Kato and Yasunori Mitsuda and finally make me my Chrono Break, dammit!

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He is still consulting, I do believe. He just isn't in a leadership position.

Isn't that what he said in his 'stepping down' letter?

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

He is still consulting, I do believe. He just isn't in a leadership position.

Isn't that what he said in his 'stepping down' letter?

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Ah, you're right! I hope he is really consulting and that wasn't just a way to avoid telling his supporters "I'll be around just to clear things up to the new director in this mess of mine."

Both Tanaka and Yoshida have different personalities and both are complementary. Both Tanaka and Yoshida have strong points and weak points that are complementary. Final Fantasy XIV will be the best MMO out there as long as they work together, hand-in-hand.

At least, from what I read and saw about both of them, which is not the whole picture.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I think its too early to tell regarding Yoshida.

I do think Tanaka was stuck in the past though and thats why we are seeing so many bad choices in FF14, he also came across a bit xenophobic on his twitter and in interviews.

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you have a point he may not thought about how many mmorpg there are really and there lot more to come. the mans little to head strong for own good but with said though being to open to others ideas can doom you as well which hope Yoshida knows this

One of them spent years making a terribly flawed game, the other has had a few months to try to salvage something fun from it. Is this even really a discussing we're having?

Has everyone forgotten that Tanaka is responsible for every bad point about XI as well as XIV?

Didn't everyone notice that XI started getting better the DAY Tanaka left to start XIV (Aht Urhgan, Wings, etc)? It's exactly the same story here, but thank the Twelve they didn't wait 4 years this time.

Things Tanaka did in XI:
-Lied about inventory slots, saying "PS2 can never handle more than 80 slots." Not only has this been confirmed not true in-game now, but it was ALWAYS capable of handling up to 255 slots per inventory type (255 in bag, 255 in house, etc).
-Purposely didn't add home points to Selbina and Mhaura despite player request.
-Purposely left "kings" the way they were despite overwhelming player request for change.
-Closed official XI forums (yes they had forums before NA launch) due to overwhelming negative feedback not unlike what's on this site. General policy of secrecy and miscommunication for years to come.

There's surely more, but this is what I can think of off the top of my head.


Things Tanaka did in XIV:
-Purposely ignored alpha and beta tester feedback on nearly every subject, possibly due to extreme butthurt.
-Purposely built this game around RMT-prevention, due to extreme butthurt.
-Purposely disabled chocobos and airships despite ALL files being on the client, including animations, airship docks (even in cities), rental NPCs, etc. To be fair airships probably need a bit more story to make sense.
-Left this game with so many memory leaks. Just run taskmgr while you are playing and watch the memory usage magically go up and up! It's like a fun game, when it hits 1.5GB, you crash! It's no wonder they aren't going to PS3 yet, there is simply no way a PS3 or any console could handle this many memory leaks.

Things Yoshida did in XIV (so far):
-Reversed Tanaka's policy of secrecy, replacing it with clear communication and concern for players' happiness. In an unprecedented move they released internal information on gathering fatigue yesterday. Tanaka would NEVER release information like that. This on top of Letters from the Producer, polls, etc.
-Actually attempts quick-fixes to help the situation in XIV, while wading through Tanaka's spaghetti code trying to figure out how to make fundamental changes to the game.
-Attempts to include players in the development process.
-Fixes to SP and XP on Disciples of War and Magic.
-Fixes to SP and XP on Disciples of the Hand.
-Numerous buffs to Disciples of the Land (faster animations, Prospect/Triangulate/Dowse buff, etc).
-And more!


It's no contest.

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Didn't everyone notice that XI started getting better the DAY Tanaka left to start XIV (Aht Urhgan, Wings, etc)? It's exactly the same story here, but thank the Twelve they didn't wait 4 years this time.

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Tanaka never left anywhere. He has been the producer of XI for all of the 8 years of service, and is one still. And the future of XI looks pretty bright, when looking at today's information posts.

Your whole theory makes no sense, sorry.

Yoshi-P made a great job so far..
but after JP earthquake, this game is like freezing.
Fewer letter from Yoshi-P, lazy-post for new patch ( just post it in forum )
No teaser for next update at all ( 10 days passed since last update )
I used to play this game before the servers closed due to earthquake,
but after I stop playing, and see they open server and did some.. super minor update I kind of bore to login to FFXIV.

I logged once in a while and see fewer ppl in Ul'dah.. I'm not sure where's everyone.
Maybe boring as i do? lol

Well.. right now I just wait and see what new update will bring. but I don't have any motivation to login to play FFXIV anymore. Yoshi-P and FFXIV team, please go back on track and start let us know what are you doing again. please!!

I am in favor of Hiromichi Tanaka

I am strongly against Naoki Yoshida

(Of course, the real answer to all our problems: Hironobu Sakaguchi)

I don't know which one I like better...

they both don't know how to discuss with players

I like Tanaka he have a bold vision like someone said but yoshi have a good vision if only both would become one person. i still think tanaka should come back as the front line team along side with yoshi.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

(Of course, the real answer to all our problems: Hironobu Sakaguchi)

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LOL I rarely agree with you but I'll give you this.

Why are we even comparing TANAKA! To a mere yoshida ? This is ridiculous, it's like comparing Sakaguchi to the guy that made the menu's in Legend of Legaia.

I hate/love tanaka.I have no feelings for yoshida, he is just a "face" for PR.The team he have is still the same that tanaka had, but they have time now.Then again lately im leaning to think yoshida is worst than tanaka for the easy way out he keeps taking with the current fixes.
Besides tanaka is a legend who screwd up, yoshida is a new guy with everything to prove.And yet people love him, when he have done nothing at all yet, sorry no the small fixes could have been done without him at all.

Yoshi-P all the way.
Even if this game fails(I sincerely hope it doesn't), it will be because of Tanaka's vision, not Yoshi's involvement.

I think Yoshi is in a peculiar predicament though.
If it wasn't for Tanaka's vision failing so badly, I don't think Yoshi would be in the position of having to pay soooooo much attention to the opinions of the players.
With that being said, I do wonder what type of MMO he (Yoshi-P) would have been able to produce from scratch.

Yoshida for me since after doing endgame in XI when Tanaka was in charge I'd rather beat my head against a concrete wall until I black out than do that again.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

I hate/love tanaka.I have no feelings for yoshida, he is just a "face" for PR.The team he have is still the same that tanaka had, but they have time now.Then again lately im leaning to think yoshida is worst than tanaka for the easy way out he keeps taking with the current fixes.
Besides tanaka is a legend who screwd up, yoshida is a new guy with everything to prove.And yet people love him, when he have done nothing at all yet, sorry no the small fixes could have been done without him at all.

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Tanaka never failed We all know that CEO and stockholder hurry them up. They set a bold time of 2010 release and if that not the case then CEO still hurry them up. In gamecoms the game was what only 60% or less done? i knew a 2010 was to hurry to release. This game was better off release 2011 and beta testing it right now for a nov release. Maybe Tanaka dream would come out better. what he said was really nice only if we could have saw it like he did.

Yoshi-p is not a bad guy also but he pretty no one in the company but he doing a ok game. i just hope it don't become a solo type game.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Tanaka never failed We all know that CEO and stockholder hurry them up. They set a bold time of 2010 release and if that not the case then CEO still hurry them up. In gamecoms the game was what only 60% or less done? i knew a 2010 was to hurry to release. This game was better off release 2011 and beta testing it right now for a nov release. Maybe Tanaka dream would come out better. what he said was really nice only if we could have saw it like he did.

Yoshi-p is not a bad guy also but he pretty no one in the company but he doing a ok game. i just hope it don't become a solo type game.

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Game failed big time, tanaka was producer = tanaka failed.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

Game failed big time, tanaka was producer = tanaka failed.

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Your equation (tanaka=fail) is simplistic and a feeble approximation at best. It requires more terms and variables to represent the true case.

I dont need a mathematical equation to know if something its bad something went terrible wrong and the person to blame is the one in charge.

Anything else is an excuse. Leadership requires responsibilities, if you cant put up with that , then maybe he should not have lead anything to start with.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

Game failed big time, tanaka was producer = tanaka failed.

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Seem like your blind like everyone here who hate on Tanaka did not fail he just needed more time if you can't see that then your blind. i had enough with this topic there both good in there own way but i still go with Tanaka because he made FFXI and more then 70% yoshi-p is doing is tanaka stuff he had there for months. lets see how yoshi-p does when there no left over paperwork and he have to do it himself.

and for all we know yoshi-p could be a face and tanaka is really doing everything its not like we in the building seeing.

the one who need to take blame for is CEO but you can't blame the person who own the company so best thing to do is blame tanaka and he did it for the company.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Your equation (tanaka=fail) is simplistic and a feeble approximation at best. It requires more terms and variables to represent the true case.

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Agree to that

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

I dont need a mathematical equation to know if something its bad something went terrible wrong and the person to blame is the one in charge.

Anything else is an excuse. Leadership requires responsibilities, if you cant put up with that , then maybe he should not have lead anything to start with.

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And agree to that too :S

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Seem like your blind like everyone here who hate on Tanaka did not fail he just needed more time if you can't see that then your blind. i had enough with this topic there both good in there own way but i still go with Tanaka because he made FFXI and more then 70% yoshi-p is doing is tanaka stuff he had there for months. lets see how yoshi-p does when there no left over paperwork and he have to do it himself.

and for all we know yoshi-p could be a face and tanaka is really doing everything its not like we in the building seeing.

the one who need to take blame for is CEO but you can't blame the person who own the company so best thing to do is blame tanaka and he did it for the company.

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people should learn to read, read my first post , im not blaming anyone im saying the leader should take responsabilities for their screws up. if your team fail you fail. it is really that simple.
edit, and yes yoshida is a face, is what i said initially.read the whole thin before going into the "you wrong" bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

people should learn to read, read my first post , im not blaming anyone im saying the leader should take responsabilities for their screws up. if your team fail you fail. it is really that simple.
edit, and yes yoshida is a face, is what i said initially.read the whole thin before going into the "you wrong" bandwagon.

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The trouble with blaming one person is that it serves to suggest that the firing of said person will alleviate all the problems. However, if the biggest problems with the previous development team was not the person leading the team, but instead a combination of time restrictions, low staff numbers, underfunding... well then it stands to reason that blaming Tanaka and firing him for the state of the game will not solve anything. In fact it might only perpetuate the issues further.

Some people need the reassurance that everything was someone else's fault, and they like this someone to take responsibility, but from my perspective, the only thing responsible for the game's failing is a series of chain reactions. Cause and effect. Nobody is solely responsible, and the biggest culprit is probably time-constraints rather than an individual person's failings.

If fiscal backing and time constraints were the biggest factors influencing the game's success or failure, then nobody, Tanaka or otherwise, could have made a better game by September 22nd without simply making a graphical upgrade of FFXI and using all the same network code etc. And if that approach was taken, then the game would have had limited market potential and would likely have failed just as badly as FFXIV, and without the room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

The trouble with blaming one person is that it serves to suggest that the firing of said person will then alleviate all the problems. If the biggest fault of the previous development was time restrictions, low staff numbers, underfunding, then it stands to reason that blaming Tanaka and firing him for that will not solve anything.

Some people need the reassurance that everything was someone else's fault, and they like that someone to take responsibility, but from my perspective, the only thing responsible for the game's failing is a series of chain reactions. Cause and effect. Nobody is solely responsible, and the biggest culprit is probably tim- constraints rather than an individual person's failings.

If fiscal backing and time constraints were the biggest factors influencing the game's success or failure, then nobody, Tanaka or otherwise, could have made a better game by September 22nd without simply making a graphical upgrade of FFXI and using all the same network code etc. And if that approach was taken, then the game would have had limited market potential and would likely have failed just as badly as FFXIV, and without the room for improvement.

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Not saying i disagree. But i lead a company and if thins go wrong you can bet your ass my employs certainly wont get fired or be blamed , i would.In the end it was tanaka´s project same as it is now yoshidas project.For small screw ups you can blame someone within .For screw ups such as this. The leader gets it. Is how it works.
edit;If i take on a project and i see i can not handle it as a leader , the wise decision would be to step down.Leting thins get out of hand like they did with this , it is his fault. that alone makes him guilty.Eighter for pride or for being inept as a leader.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

Not saying i disagree. But i lead a company and if thins go wrong you can bet your ass my employs certainly wont get fired or be blamed , i would.In the end it was tanaka´s project same as it is now yoshidas project.For small screw ups you can blame someone within .For screw ups such as this. The leader gets it. Is how it works.

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Regardless of whether that's 'how it works', the point is that's not how it 'should work'.

Understanding the problem and then responding accordingly is the best approach rather than performing PR stunts which further deteriorate the game and impose themselves upon the update schedule.

Act conscientiously, not conventionally.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

people should learn to read, read my first post , im not blaming anyone im saying the leader should take responsabilities for their screws up. if your team fail you fail. it is really that simple.
edit, and yes yoshida is a face, is what i said initially.read the whole thin before going into the "you wrong" bandwagon.

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not saying your wrong just saying but you can't really say your team fail because of the person when the CEO told them to hurry up and told them it's not ready yet. If i was tanaka i would have done the same step down and take blame for my CEO but at the end the person i would blame for ffxiv failing is the CEO i never like that guy to start with when they said 2010 release i knew it have to be CEO or stockholder hurry them up. But w/e remember that SE read the forums so does yoshi-p

Yoshi-p doing a great job but at the end it paperwork that Tanaka had done before let's see how he would do 1-3years from now and where this came be. i hope he does good for the best of the game.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Regardless of whether that's 'how it works', the point is that's not how it 'should work'.

Understanding the problem and then responding accordingly is the best approach rather than performing PR stunts which further deteriorate the game and impose themselves upon the update schedule.

Act conscientiously, not conventionally.

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Agree.But saying tanaka got F***ed over and he did well is a lie. he screwed up.
Again if i had to choose i would go with tanaka , the new guy havent done anything worth my praise yet, on the contrary.But personally i think many people would had done a much better job than both.I think so far to me personally , the game fails so both of them = fail.Whatever that can change is up to be seen , but my hopes arent exactly up.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

Agree.But saying tanaka got F***ed over and he did well is a lie. he screwed up.
Again if i had to choose i would go with tanaka , the new guy havent done anything worth my praise yet, on the contrary.But personally i think many people would had done a much better job than both.I think so far to me personally , the game fails so both of them = fail.Whatever that can change is up to be seen , but my hopes arent exactly up.

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I can agree with that, I guess. Tanaka probably did screw up, but the degree to which Tanaka screwed up is not really obvious considering that he may have faced obstacles.

I don't know if Yoshi has CEOs breathing down his neck either, but the choices made under his leadership do seem even worse than anything Tanaka put out.

Tanaka put out good ideas with bad implementation. Yoshi puts out bad ideas with mediocre implementation.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I can agree with that, I guess. Tanaka probably did screw up, but the degree to which Tanaka screwed up is not really obvious considering that he may have faced obstacles.

I don't know if Yoshi has CEOs breathing down his neck either, but the choices made under his leadership do seem even worse than anything Tanaka put out.

Tanaka put out good ideas with bad implementation. Yoshi puts out bad ideas with mediocre implementation.

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I'm not sure 100% sure who i'm for as of now. I'm disappointed about AA but since I don't know how its going to be implemented I can't be too upset yet. I'm holding my decision for when I see what he does with the armory system with the addition of jobs. If he completes it then I will be on Yoshi side. However, if he chooses to go to a WoW "tree" route then I will always have that 'What If" and think Tanaka should have stayed.

The Armory System is the main reason I have faith in this game. If it is destroyed or becomes a clone then I will move on to the next. Tanaka did a great job with the system as it is now but it feels like it's halfway done(like most other features).