AOE Rings

well in the Letter From the Producer VII there is also another AOE ring look closely at around 1:20:17 Bam!!! green ring when using what looks like a item?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drewbie

rings or...... that one can easily distinguish what is the difference if its easy?
let me guess rings are too easy i bet!!

---

No, you missunderstand. Imagine this scenario, a giant Ogre is preparing a Quake like attack, he lifts his hammer up high and slams it into the ground, causing the ground to shatter. Now imagine the same scenario but instead all the animations are replaced with a charge, a cast bar and a red ring underneath. SE's team is going with the second approach here because it's easier to design. My arguement has nothing to do with difficulty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkoon

No, you missunderstand. Imagine this scenario, a giant Ogre is preparing a Quake like attack, he lifts his hammer up high and slams it into the ground, causing the ground to shatter. Now imagine the same scenario but instead all the animations are replaced with a charge, a cast bar and a red ring underneath. SE's team is going with the second approach here because it's easier to design. My arguement has nothing to do with difficulty.

---

Who said the first idea couldn't be implented along with the second? While the first is nice and sounds amazing, you don't know the area of effect or how big. Is it all in front of him? How long? Or is it just a cone? Is it just a line?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kairukun

Who said the first idea couldn't be implented along with the second? While the first is nice and sounds amazing, you don't know the area of effect or how big. Is it all in front of him? How long? Or is it just a cone? Is it just a line?

---

That is when experience comes into play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drewbie

well in the Letter From the Producer VII there is also another AOE ring look closely at around 1:20:17 Bam!!! green ring when using what looks like a item?

---

Pretty sure that was just an ability. (Label said "Sprint".) Not AOE, just a whoosh-like effect that sort of radiates outward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkoon

No, you missunderstand. Imagine this scenario, a giant Ogre is preparing a Quake like attack, he lifts his hammer up high and slams it into the ground, causing the ground to shatter. Now imagine the same scenario but instead all the animations are replaced with a charge, a cast bar and a red ring underneath. SE's team is going with the second approach here because it's easier to design. My arguement has nothing to do with difficulty.

---

I think that in this case, you are the one who is misunderstanding. The animation was there as well. The purpose for the ring is so that you can react to the enemy based on the enemy, rather than based on the battle log.

Your complaint equates to asking for them to permanently filter the Enemy's spells and aoe abilities from the battle log, because it gives us too much information.

i can't believe people are talking about AoE radius guides as if they're a stain of evil. It's a wonderful feature to have and doesn't in any way "scream low quality.' as long as it's done properly. Why should I have to guess at or feel around to figure out the actual radius of a spell or effect?

It's not like this plays the game for you- you still have to get out of the way if it's an enemy attack and you still have to move into the right position if it's a spell you're casting. It simply allows you to make a more informed decision- it doesn't reward laziness or poor play. With the sphere effects and enemy auras in FFXI, without third party tools you had to completely guess or feel around for the edge of the radius. You aren't even given the slightest clue. having to intentionally subject yourself to something in order to learn its radius is silly, as is blindly casting a spell to find out that yes, the AoE radius is that huge and caused you to hit 5 mobs you didn't intend to hit.

Just as it could be argued that you don't need this feature once you learn this stuff makes it useless to have, it can also be argued that since only one trial/error session is necessary, why not just eliminate that by having the range indicators? it's not like you're not going to learn it anyway. Let the people that like it turn it on and let the people who think it's ugly/ruins immersion/takes away "skill" turn it off. I guarantee you, you won't be able to tell the difference as to who's using it and who isn't.

Quote:

---

I think that in this case, you are the one who is misunderstanding. The animation was there as well. The purpose for the ring is so that you can react to the enemy based on the enemy, rather than based on the battle log.

Your complaint equates to asking for them to permanently filter the Enemy's spells and aoe abilities from the battle log, because it gives us too much information.

---

Also, this. It's essentially a visual substitute for the battle log. Some people don't like spending most of the game looking at the bottom left of the screen reading all the text rather than looking at what their character is doing.

I personally like them. I made a topic ages ago during 1.0 about the same thing. Some form of indicator when you're planning to either use an AoE yourself, or when a mob is about to use one, to gauge who is and isnt within the range. That way you can switch between different targets to make sure that you utilize the aoe distance fully.

Um...>.>...I did notice that the mob also made a gesture before it performs it's aoe attack...so the circles and the animations will go hand in hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

I think that in this case, you are the one who is misunderstanding. The animation was there as well. The purpose for the ring is so that you can react to the enemy based on the enemy, rather than based on the battle log.

Your complaint equates to asking for them to permanently filter the Enemy's spells and aoe abilities from the battle log, because it gives us too much information.

---

Nonsense.

Learning enemies by "reading" their animations and learning their "tells" is a very long-standing means of learning and defeating enemies in games - MMOs and otherwise. You only have to read the chat log, or look for circles on the ground, if you never bothered to learn the encounters.

I've been playing TERA for the past month or so. In TERA, you have mobs known as "BAMs", they're basically miniature raid bosses which can take several minutes to kill (up to 10 if you're soloing them).

They each have some seriously powerful moves that can mess you up in a number of ways (slow, DoT, massive spike-damage, knock-down, etc) and make a good fight go bad very quickly. There are no rings, cones, lines, or anything indicating what its move is going to be. The only warning it gives is that, for certain attacks, its eyes will flash red before attacking.

At that point, you have to pay attention to its animation/behavior to determine what its attack is going to be, and then react appropriately to avoid or prepare for the attack.

However the red flash doesn't happen before all moves. Some are telegraphed only by an animation it does prior to doing the attack.

There's nothing else. No other indications of what its damage radius is or of how far away you have to get. Yet, people learn the individual BAMs, learn their behaviors, their attacks, their attack ranges, and their "tells", and become capable of taking them down - even solo.

Check out this video. This person is soloing a world boss, likely intended for 5 people. You can see how they react based on the enemy's animations, and know to get out of the way, and how far. They know how to tell when it's setting up for its AOE electric field. They know how to tell when it's going to leap. They know how to tell when it's going to slam its tail down, etc. One bad mistake, and that fight could have gone down the tubes for them.

While I'm not nearly on level of this player, I've managed to take down a number of BAMs solo myself. It can be extremely difficult when you're not as familiar with them. But it's also actually a hell of a lot of fun and very rewarding. Especially when you get to the point of knowing how to read a BAM - which used to smack you around like a rag doll - well enough to get through an entire fight almost unscathed.

And please, nobody say "well, TERA's an action game, FFXIV Isn't... so it's not the same" because that makes absolutely no difference here. Whether the combat is point and click, Tab Targeting or Action-Based, it would apply exactly the same way. Also nobody say, "well stop trying to turn this game into TERA", because that's not what I'm saying either. The concept of depending on 'tells' and animations to know what an enemy is going to do and follow appropriately is not limited to TERA. It applies to all styles of combat. In fact, it's been in previous FF games as well.

The problem is these days - the impatient, "gimme now" generation we're in - people have become spoiled by and dependent on Wiki Guides and Helper Add-ons to complete anything. The Helper Addons in particular have become an absolute crutch. It's most apparent when you see people (as several have in this thread, and on other forums) arguing that it would somehow be not possible, or overly difficult, to defeat enemies by learning their patterns and figuring out how to fight them effectively. It seems, in some cases, like these people don't realize people have done just that for years now, and continue to in some games to this day (see my TERA example above).

It's not some crazy, untenable concept. It's a tried-and-true, road tested and proven mechanic in games, particularly against boss type creatures.

So, it's clearly not an issue of "it can't be done". It's an issue of "they don't want to do it". Two very, very different things.

It is what it is. Yohi-P has been clear in his intentions to make this game extremely casual friendly, with "strong guidance" (his words) in the gameplay and such. So, hey, for the people who "need" (read: want) things spelled out for them... rejoice. You're getting your way. Those who prefer to be a bit more involved in the equation and figure things out for themselves will learn to deal with it, or move on I suppose.

Just another example of how players are pushing to have their games more and more simplified, and more and more dumbed down. All the while, complaints of "why are games getting so boring?" are increasing. Coincidence? I don't think so. I'd say it's Cause and Effect in action.

Toggle please? ^_^;;

From an immersion stand point I really hate rings on the ground and if I can turn them off I do so. The only time that's an exception is maybe during hard dungeons or something. I don't actually have anything against the feature itself, but I would appreciate a way to not see it. Same goes with other visual cues like that and floating names, and other UI features.

Well this will help alleviate people thinking 'I was far enough away when the explosion went off.' There are plenty of animations that simply don't show the full range of an aoe effect in many games. I personally like the aoe rings and feel it brings much more to the game than it takes away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkoon

I dislike this addition. It's a cheap way of telegraphing enemy attacks and screams low quality. I fear that if we are allowed to turn it off in the options then people that chose to do so will be at an extreme disadvantage due to developers not giving enemies proper animations or attack patterns that one can easily distinguish.

By allowing the "AoE Rings" you are as a community allowing bad quality in future updates.

---

I cant speak to it being bad quality or design.

It beats having to use a third-party program for these "advantages", as some have done in XI. I'd rather SE just create it themselves.

To the person talking about Tera that is a lie, there are moves with AOE circles. Don't be fooling yourself. Source? I been playing the game since Korean Beta, stopped after the shit fall of Westernization of the game (right before the relaunch).

Edit: There are moves and skills that go un-circled, but these skill usually involve some non form of charging. (in fact that has been brought up here, that aoe circles are only for charging aoe skills.) But the reason why that they could even get away without AoE circle in Tera is the fact it is a action based MMO. You are supposed to be moving at all times. While FFXIV is partly hybrid, it is still the standard MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kairukun

To the person talking about Tera that is a lie, there are moves with AOE circles. Don't be fooling yourself. Source? I been playing the game since Korean Beta, stopped after the shit fall of Westernization of the game (right before the relaunch).

Edit: There are moves and skills that go un-circled, but these skill usually involve some non form of charging. (in fact that has been brought up here, that aoe circles are only for charging aoe skills.) But the reason why that they could even get away without AoE circle in Tera is the fact it is a action based MMO. You are supposed to be moving at all times. While FFXIV is partly hybrid, it is still the standard MMO.

---

I'll concede this much: It was an oversight. It was not a lie, nor am I fooling myself. Frankly, attacks with a visible marker are so greatly outnumbered by those without that I actually forgot they even existed when typing that post.

You're right, some of the attacks have a ring, and those tend to be targeted ranged attacks of some sort. However, compared to those without a visible ring, the amount with one is negligible. At level 57, I've fought almost every BAM in the game (not including bosses, etc) at least once. Each had, at most, 2 attacks with a visible ring. Meanwhile, they had at about 6-8 without. And the attacks without one vary enough that knowing how to read them is critical. There are point-blank AOEs, lunging attacks, leaping attacks, charging/trampling attacks, conal AOEs with no indicator, circular AOEs with no indicator and so forth.

So, even including your correction, my point still stands. Having indicators showing where 1 to 2 attacks will hit only helps you against those specific attacks, and is certainly not enough to walk away victorious. All the rest still require you to learn and recognize the enemy's "tells", then swiftly and accurately respond to them.

You still have to learn them. You still have to effectively avoid them. And it can still be done without rings, markers or other visual aids to make the fight manageable. You just need to pay attention and be responsive... which is the core point of my post.

As for your second paragraph, abou thow "TERA's an action game and you're always moving"... See, this is why I pre-emptively address remarks such as I do. Because sure enough, given enough time, someone is going to make those statements. You hang around a forum long enough, you begin to recognize the popular/typical canned responses, and you soon become able to predict exactly what arguments you're going to see before they're even made.

It's funny, then, when someone - such as yourself in this case, Kairukun - proceeds to make one of the very arguments I already addressed anyway.

Allow me to quote myself in response to your argument:

Quote:

---

And please, nobody say "well, TERA's an action game, FFXIV Isn't... so it's not the same" because that makes absolutely no difference here. Whether the combat is point and click, Tab Targeting or Action-Based, it would apply exactly the same way.

---

To expand on that point, there are myriad MMOs, and other games, with boss encounters where animations/tells and specific patterns are the only indication a player has to go by to predict and prepare for what it's going to do next. That includes action MMOs, "point and click MMOs", Tab Targeting MMOs, and everything in-between.

The idea of bosses and major encounters telegraphing their attacks is completely irrelevant to the specific combat mechanics. It can exist just as comfortably in any scenario.

My point stands.

This seems to be a case of "why is this game accepting more casual players. I want it to be stubbornly hard."
They're going to continue to add features that will make things more comfortable to those of us who do not enjoy beating our heads against a wall. The sooner you accept this the better.
Accept it and either embrace it or move on to a game that more suits your tastes.

The rings add another cosmetic option for players to see as cues, rather than resorting to the only alternative: waiting for the text to pop up:

Ifrit is readying Vulcan Burst.

Its a good thing. 'Nuff said.

While I'm not a fan of this really, we have had text since the first MMO's giving us the same warning and often times it was faster/more efficient than the animation anyways. I'm sure you can still look for the casting animation and it might be faster that way, however since there was almost always a text prompt in the log you can't say it is the end of the world.

I just hope it doesn't look too tacky in practice and is not overused.

Quote:

---

Learning enemies by "reading" their animations and learning their "tells" is a very long-standing means of learning and defeating enemies in games - MMOs and otherwise. You only have to read the chat log, or look for circles on the ground, if you never bothered to learn the encounters.

---

This doesn't have anything to do with learning abilities and tells. Even that doesn't tell you EXACTLY the range of the abilities. A smart player shouldn't even need the feature, as they should be anticipating the attack to begin with. However, the existence of the feature doesn't harm the smart player, and it helps the newer / novice player learn.

Seriously. It doesn't hurt you, if you don't like it, turn it off- I'm sure there will be an option as there are options for almost anything else you can think of. Let it be there for the people that will benefit from it.

It's not like this is a new thing, anyway. The damaging areas during the garuda fight were clearly marked with visual effects, the areas ifrit attacked had clearly visible visual effects prior to the actual damage. Are we all noobs because we saw the cracks and said "oh shit, I gotta run or I'll die"?

And after a month of playing, no one will be bothered or bicker about AoE rings. . . .

See under Gobbue, grass, jump. . . .

Personally, I'd take visual effects of any kind (be it a special animation, an AoE circle or whatever), even sound, instead of having to rely on text.

And since that topic has been touched; for me, soloing TERA BAMs was boring as f**k, much like the rest of the game :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Preypacer

Nonsense.

Learning enemies by "reading" their animations and learning their "tells" is a very long-standing means of learning and defeating enemies in games - MMOs and otherwise. You only have to read the chat log, or look for circles on the ground, if you never bothered to learn the encounters.

I've been playing TERA for the past month or so. In TERA, you have mobs known as "BAMs", they're basically miniature raid bosses which can take several minutes to kill (up to 10 if you're soloing them).

They each have some seriously powerful moves that can mess you up in a number of ways (slow, DoT, massive spike-damage, knock-down, etc) and make a good fight go bad very quickly. There are no rings, cones, lines, or anything indicating what its move is going to be. The only warning it gives is that, for certain attacks, its eyes will flash red before attacking.

At that point, you have to pay attention to its animation/behavior to determine what its attack is going to be, and then react appropriately to avoid or prepare for the attack.

However the red flash doesn't happen before all moves. Some are telegraphed only by an animation it does prior to doing the attack.

There's nothing else. No other indications of what its damage radius is or of how far away you have to get. Yet, people learn the individual BAMs, learn their behaviors, their attacks, their attack ranges, and their "tells", and become capable of taking them down - even solo.

Check out this video. This person is soloing a world boss, likely intended for 5 people. You can see how they react based on the enemy's animations, and know to get out of the way, and how far. They know how to tell when it's setting up for its AOE electric field. They know how to tell when it's going to leap. They know how to tell when it's going to slam its tail down, etc. One bad mistake, and that fight could have gone down the tubes for them.

While I'm not nearly on level of this player, I've managed to take down a number of BAMs solo myself. It can be extremely difficult when you're not as familiar with them. But it's also actually a hell of a lot of fun and very rewarding. Especially when you get to the point of knowing how to read a BAM - which used to smack you around like a rag doll - well enough to get through an entire fight almost unscathed.

And please, nobody say "well, TERA's an action game, FFXIV Isn't... so it's not the same" because that makes absolutely no difference here. Whether the combat is point and click, Tab Targeting or Action-Based, it would apply exactly the same way. Also nobody say, "well stop trying to turn this game into TERA", because that's not what I'm saying either. The concept of depending on 'tells' and animations to know what an enemy is going to do and follow appropriately is not limited to TERA. It applies to all styles of combat. In fact, it's been in previous FF games as well.

The problem is these days - the impatient, "gimme now" generation we're in - people have become spoiled by and dependent on Wiki Guides and Helper Add-ons to complete anything. The Helper Addons in particular have become an absolute crutch. It's most apparent when you see people (as several have in this thread, and on other forums) arguing that it would somehow be not possible, or overly difficult, to defeat enemies by learning their patterns and figuring out how to fight them effectively. It seems, in some cases, like these people don't realize people have done just that for years now, and continue to in some games to this day (see my TERA example above).

It's not some crazy, untenable concept. It's a tried-and-true, road tested and proven mechanic in games, particularly against boss type creatures.

So, it's clearly not an issue of "it can't be done". It's an issue of "they don't want to do it". Two very, very different things.

It is what it is. Yohi-P has been clear in his intentions to make this game extremely casual friendly, with "strong guidance" (his words) in the gameplay and such. So, hey, for the people who "need" (read: want) things spelled out for them... rejoice. You're getting your way. Those who prefer to be a bit more involved in the equation and figure things out for themselves will learn to deal with it, or move on I suppose.

Just another example of how players are pushing to have their games more and more simplified, and more and more dumbed down. All the while, complaints of "why are games getting so boring?" are increasing. Coincidence? I don't think so. I'd say it's Cause and Effect in action.

---

Every system has it's flaws and advantages, using Tera again as an example, sure it's action based and some BAMs can be soloed, but in the end every BAM works within the same general mechanics and then 1-3 of their own unique traits.

The example you showed, the most obvious similarity between other BAMS that are 4-legged, they use that same exact charge move that goes into one direction.

Things to an extent are telegraphed, made ina way where it isn't to hard to dodge and to an extent repetitive. I never really saw myself using different strategies when fighting BAMs unless I managed to find a better ability to replace an old one but for the most part, every BAM is pretty much, save the dodge move for when they charge after you and attack accordingly lol.

------------

Now as far as XIV goes and the AOE rings, XI had it to, in essence. Some people did use plugins to help them tell how far a mob was from them in order to dodge weaponskills and the likes, so honestly this ring thing is nothing more than an official/legit version being put into XIV.

To give you a bit of insight on the AoE ring in the screenshot; the red ring surrounding the peiste indicates that the monster's AoE attack is coming and where it will hit. (So you better move!)

All players will be able to see these AoE rings, but please note that these rings aren't displayed for every single AoE attack, only for special actions. Lastly, these rings will not be displayed for player enhancements such as protect and there are currently no plans to be able to toggle these on/off.

Okie dokie! Oki puit-y!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airget

Every system has it's flaws and advantages, using Tera again as an example, sure it's action based and some BAMs can be soloed, but in the end every BAM works within the same general mechanics and then 1-3 of their own unique traits.

The example you showed, the most obvious similarity between other BAMS that are 4-legged, they use that same exact charge move that goes into one direction.

Things to an extent are telegraphed, made ina way where it isn't to hard to dodge and to an extent repetitive. I never really saw myself using different strategies when fighting BAMs unless I managed to find a better ability to replace an old one but for the most part, every BAM is pretty much, save the dodge move for when they charge after you and attack accordingly lol.

------------

Now as far as XIV goes and the AOE rings, XI had it to, in essence. Some people did use plugins to help them tell how far a mob was from them in order to dodge weaponskills and the likes, so honestly this ring thing is nothing more than an official/legit version being put into XIV.

---

Whoop de doo, now how does one make it challenging in the face of glowing UI floors?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Whoop de doo, now how does one make it challenging in the face of glowing UI floors?

---

The same way you would in the face of said abilities being listed in your chat log. :p

At least with this option, you can analyze the monster (i.e. actually play the game), rather than scan a box full of letters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

The same way you would in the face of said abilities being listed in your chat log. :p

At least with this option, you can analyze the monster (i.e. actually play the game), rather than scan a box full of letters.

---

I'd rather analyze the monster(i.e. actually play the game), without having the UI light up like a christmas tree. If this was a fighting game there'd be the "WARNING" icons from GGX2 when the player or cpu uses its new attacks.

To those that haven't played, I mean these, from the boss I-No fight:

http://leadexample.net/wp-content/up...1/InoMove1.jpg

My point is that it looks ridiculous when dumbed down to this level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

I'd rather analyze the monster(i.e. actually play the game), without having the UI light up like a christmas tree. If this was a fighting game there'd be the "WARNING" icons from GGX2 when the player or cpu uses its new attacks.

To those that haven't played, I mean these, from the boss I-No fight:

http://leadexample.net/wp-content/up...1/InoMove1.jpg

My point is that it looks ridiculous when dumbed down to this level.

---

You're hyping. No way it's that bad.

As someone who'd scan the chat-log and then watch animations for how they sync up and what to do in response, this will pretty much be the same thing with a little less eye darting. I welcome it, but making these things toggle-able in future patches would be nice. Once you've learned to bowl, you can lower the bumpers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

You're hyping. No way it's that bad.

---

Throw in multiple mob attack patterns and it can get pretty bad.

Phew, thank goodness for mindless aoe rings. For a while I thought I was actually going to have to put thought into the game and learn the battles I wanted to win. I guess I'd be ok with another layer of dumbing it down if this were the first game I ever played or I wore a padded helmet....... but I don't so I'm not too happy about it personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jig

Phew, thank goodness for mindless aoe rings. For a while I thought I was actually going to have to put thought into the game and learn the battles I wanted to win. I guess I'd be ok with another layer of dumbing it down if this were the first game I ever played or I wore a padded helmet....... but I don't so I'm not too happy about it personally.

---

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. It is graphical input by looking at the monster, rather than looking at a text box. nothing more.

Hell, its even only for special attacks, mid tier stuff (including aoe) will remain blind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Throw in multiple mob attack patterns and it can get pretty bad.

---

Big deal. They're probably just going to be trash mob symbols anyway.

All this complaining is probably just XI snobbery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. It is graphical input by looking at the monster, rather than looking at a text box. nothing more.

Hell, its even only for special attacks, mid tier stuff (including aoe) will remain blind.

---

Wrong, you are not looking at the monster, you are looking at the ground. You seem to think that we want FFXI text based combat log reaction back and that is not true. I want to see the monster perform an animation so I can react accordingly WITHOUT having to red the combat log.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkoon

Wrong, you are not looking at the monster, you are looking at the ground. You seem to think that we want FFXI text based combat log reaction back and that is not true. I want to see the monster perform an animation so I can react accordingly WITHOUT having to red the combat log.

---

...And you still don't seem to get that the animations are still there.

Standard charge animations is all I saw.

http://youtu.be/FCCKYfouAxE?t=1h32m39s

Standard charge animation + cast bar + AoE ring

Sounds like a decent balance of AoE rings and monster visual cues. I can live with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

Sounds like a decent balance of AoE rings and monster visual cues. I can live with that.

---

indeed. /10char

People truly will find a way to complain about the most minuscule things

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okipuit

To give you a bit of insight on the AoE ring in the screenshot; the red ring surrounding the peiste indicates that the monster's AoE attack is coming and where it will hit. (So you better move!)

All players will be able to see these AoE rings, but please note that these rings aren't displayed for every single AoE attack, only for special actions. Lastly, these rings will not be displayed for player enhancements such as protect and there are currently no plans to be able to toggle these on/off.

---

Aww...no protect rings? Kinda sad...but oh well. Thank you for clearing that up! ^^