Levelling in ARR

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

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I find grinding same group of mobs over and over again at the same spot half AFK is boring as hell

I think the real problem lies with the players. No matter how many different ways they put in for leveling, how many varied areas to grind, or how much extensive content, eventually the players will find " the best way" of leveling or playing and then if anyone thinks outside that box they become a "n00b" or aren't playing it right. The players will gimp their gaming experience themselves for the sake of the path of least resistance.

Take FFXI, everyone leveled in the Valkrum Dunes... why? I know the Pashaow Marshlands was the exact same level range, had a different variety of monsters, yet no one leveled as a party there and you could not convince people to go there. Ok, there was the subjob quest in Dunes but it was one quest. Same thing happens in WoW. When I really got into it they had just released Wrath of the Litch King and no matter what I tried no one was willing or interested in running me through the "end game" story for the original game or burning crusade. Bad luck on my part? Maybe.

I play League of Legends and there are some chrs that can be played in a variety of ways but if the playstyle or build that works for you isn't the "accepted" norm, its no end of people calling you down. Or you could play your chr really well and then people complain your champ is OP and needs a nerf. I guess its a fault I have that I look at things in many different ways instead of black or white. Its one of the reasons I was really happy with the way the class system was in 1.0

Sad thing is SE could add in all the things everyone wants but the players will put their own restrictions on themselves then complain that "we have to do it a certain way". I think what SE has planned, that they have let us in on so far, sounds great. They have a lot of different ways to play ARR and lots of content, the only problem will be what the players choose to do with it.

EDIT:
And then as i typed this Xtash proved my point...

It has been mentioned before but the dungeon system is the way to level in a party. Its just not stationary you move around kill mobs as you run through the dungeon? How is this not better then a sit in 1 spot and grind party?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

It has been mentioned before but the dungeon system is the way to level in a party. Its just not stationary you move around kill mobs as you run through the dungeon? How is this not better then a sit in 1 spot and grind party?

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It's the wonder of archaic FFXI community.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

IF XP partys is not as efficient as questing then it is NOT an option at all. The if you like that style you can still do it does not fly. Would be like having quest only reward 50-100xp per completion all the way to cap. IF there is enough quest you can still do them to cap.... but who would it is not effective.

Forced solo leveling / dungeon grinding is what is killing this mmo genre. FATE (GW2) style content is ok for a break but it is also not something that can be focused on. It simply gets mind numbingly boring.

SE needs to 1 of 2 things.

1) Make group grinding worthwhile. This is the easiest fix and causes no harm to any solo quest or other content. They have absolutely no reason to screw over the XI fans when it literally has no side effects of keeping this style of leveling. This honestly does not even involve more coding. Honestly this is a big middle finger to anyone who is not a casual or anyone who wants to level from 1 to cap in a party.

2) Make all quest sharable. Meaning same rewards but with a group you obviously can do them quicker so more xp/hr. Example if one player picks up an item from mob needed for the quest all players in the party get it. (just have to prevent pwrlvling with this). Leve sharing alone is not acceptable because there is a limit to them. If all quest can be done in a party then this will also work. (No mmo to date does this effectivly, solo is always more efficient)

Grouping in dungeons/instances as the only group based content is simply not acceptable in a mmo. Fate (Gw2 style content) is not grouping it is 2+ people soloing together.

WoW is a great game, but this forced Solo style mmo needs to die and never be resurrected in the genre again. It is the 1 aspect of WoW that is killing all mmos.

Yoshida thinks he is making the right move removing this. As players and, for most, future testers we need to voice our opinions to convince him to give us a choice to solo or play in partys in the open world. This IS A GAME BREAKING ELEMENT TO MANY PLAYERS, especially to XI ones... the dedicated ones who played another SE game for 5+ yrs who will just write this off as another fail wow clone solo mmo. This is not new content that needs to be added, this is a simple forumula so the time to address this in terms of development is really small, but the effect is really major. There is a reason the community cheered in version 1 when party xp was added to the game outside quest a huge part of the SE fan base wants the option to do it.

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couldn't of said it better my self. /cheers

Okay let's reflect on what content has been made official to gain EXP ( SO FAR ):
(Note that it's all subject to change, tho has been stated through various sources)


- Quests (solo/ fakeduo/faketrio possible with NPC & Chocobo)

- Leves (Leve-Link should be possible as they said "the system won't change much")

- Storyline (solo/Party)

- Grand Company Content (details tba)

- Instanced Dungeons & Battlefields like Tam-Tara & Skirmish (4-man)

- Raid Content (8-man / up to 24-man ally)

- Revamped Behests (details tba)

- Grind Party (said to be "less effective" in one of the Live Letters (iirc), tho groups of mobs will always exist and therefore can be used as camps)

- F.A.T.E. like Hamlet Defense, Chocobo Caravan, NM Battles, "Content where settlements come under attack" (Party/Ally)

- Power Lev... um nvm.

- did I miss something?

With all that in mind, no need to recall that there is a Content Finder Feature!


Also nice to know about additional effects for EXP gaining ( SO FAR ):

- "Chain" -Bonus
- Food
- "Rested" -Status (from INN and around Aetherytes)
- "EXP+" -Effect from additional Housing areas (was being talked about for crafters)


Why say

"I only want this or that" and
"this is better than that" and
"if this is less effective it is useless" ?

I like the variety of ways. In the end, the success of almost EVERY EXP content is more dependent on Party Skills than on the balancing of the game.

You are free to disagree, of course.

I dont see how the current system prevents grinding for those who still want it. They simply said tehre will be other more efficient means. They didnt say they were taking it away. Grinding WAS the most efficient way, now its not. That does not equal Taken away.

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Originally Posted by RoninDarkchild

I dont see how the current system prevents grinding for those who still want it. They simply said tehre will be other more efficient means. They didnt say they were taking it away. Grinding WAS the most efficient way, now its not. That does not equal Taken away.

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You are correct, people are just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

It's the wonder of archaic FFXI community.

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Just because you may not prefer it doesn't mean others don't. I like to be lazy and have mobs pulled to me.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I find grinding same group of mobs over and over again at the same spot half AFK is boring as hell

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That's the problem here. We have all different kinds of people who find different methods "better." I personally find tedious solo questing where i'm treated like a moron, to be both insulting and annoying.

Square needs to make sure that all the leveling methods they have planned can match one another. Some people may want to just focus grind out in an area for a few hours, others quest solo, maybe toss in a FATE or two. They mainly just need to come out and say party grinding will be as good as questing. Either way eventually someone is going to find the optimal leveling method and then most people will do it anyways.

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Originally Posted by SidRheingold

(snip)

- did I miss something?

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Power Leveling?

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Originally Posted by Alzelia

Power Leveling?

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Please... No power leveling.. It creates high level players with no clue as to what they are doing. Most players that are PLd act like they have a lampshade on their head, have no idea whats happening.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I find grinding same group of mobs over and over again at the same spot half AFK is boring as hell

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Instead of asking for group quests and a large variety of group dungeons... people ask for boring grind parties. I'm still not sure why there are so, so many people asking for ancient outdated and boring game design.

Also I still don't know what the complaints are about. Grinding is never going to go away, because it's the fundamental aspect of the MMO.

You can't not fight monsters while leveling up (at least a combat class). Nobody will prevent you from grinding and finding like-minded individuals who want to grind.

What I'm really getting out of this topic is that the grind people are unhappy that there are other, viable methods of leveling.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Instead of asking for group quests and a large variety of group dungeons... people ask for boring grind parties. I'm still not sure why there are so, so many people asking for ancient outdated and boring game design.

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lol QTF! "Do something original SE so we can keep playing the game the same old boring way!"

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Originally Posted by KittenStomper

Please... No power leveling.. It creates high level players with no clue as to what they are doing. Most players that are PLd act like they have a lampshade on their head, have no idea whats happening.

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I agree with you but unfortunately I doubt Yoshi will change his mind and get rid of PLing.

What I hope is that there are tangible fringe benefits to choosing the less than optimal leveling method. For example, let's say I have 3 or 4 battle classes at level 50 and I want to level monk to 50 next. The quickest way would be to quest. However, maybe I also really want some GC seals for a piece of gear or a promotion. Then maybe I should level monk with GC leves plus Chocobo escorts. Maybe I want to level ltw, so I start leveling monk by killing some sheep.

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Originally Posted by KittenStomper

Please... No power leveling.. It creates high level players with no clue as to what they are doing. Most players that are PLd act like they have a lampshade on their head, have no idea whats happening.

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The problem isn't with power leveling in itself, but rather the abilities of most of the players that undergo the process. For brand new players who haven't done much reading up about basic mechanics and class/job roles, being PL'd is a bad thing as it does, like you say, create lampshaded players who, unfortunately, can ruin party dynamics when it comes to the crunch. But some of those players are quick to learn even though they've skipped ahead a little faster. And for those who have the knowledge, PLing offers them a way to get their next class to the level cap so that they can begin to use it in end game scenarios.

It's one of those things that arguable either way, and there's no guarantee that a person who takes the slower route is still going to be good at their jobs when they get to cap.

As an alternative, it would be nice to see some kind of feature that lets experienced players go that little bit faster to the level caps on class they decide to level later in their game career, as an alternative to being able to utilise PL techniques. I think Yoshi-P left that system in so that friends of players who came in later could catch up and join them in the game. In those cases, something like XI's Guide/Sprout Beret's would be an alternative, except invited friends would gain exp at a slightly faster rate (for those early levels) and with Level Sync being put into the game from the get go, friends can play and work together to get them into the end-game scene quicker. I'd assume they would be taught the basics, at least, as they go.

I think I read that claim mechanics are being changed a little bit at least, so we will have to see if PL is still possible. If not, oh well, time to learn how to level efficiently for some people.

I wouldn't worry too much about leveling up, the players will always find the best ways to do things. I especially love it when people find unorthodox ways to do stuff.

so wait killing mobs is boring? sorry but most don't read the quests, so what we got is people running around collecting quests they don't read and running around zones to kill a couple of mobs that even in ffxiv looks like they are no dynamics to the fight at all, let alone other mmo's since ffxi. so how they heck do you say that the vise versa is boring. in grind groups your doing what lots consider fun, killing monsters. lots of people don't need breaks to check on there kids or give there wives a smooch every 5minutes in between playing and lets not kid ourselves its the breaks between each quest that is more reason a reason to like quests then anything. if you need to trick your mind by thinking yaay there is a reason to kill mobs then i don't know what to say. most don't need to, just pretend it's the same reason from every frigin game in creation lol. chose a class that suits you, pick a class to solo with (bst,pup,smn) pick brd to run around pulling mobs, many other classes are dynamic and need to pay lots of attention too, or easy crap like warrior. (i'm taking ffxi as an example) but you get the point, every class doesn't need to be the same right? that is like saying everyone deserves the same boring crap you want in a game cause one has an arrow and one doesn't.

in the end i love grinds simply cause 1. i get to party with a bunch of people, it is almost always different people but hey you can also do it with the same people i know lots that do that. heck i did leve linking with the same group all way to 50 on a good 4classes. (it was boring and why i hate the direction this game is going) ffxi i felt like i knew half or more of the server cause of this and large scale events.

2. no down time ...i don't need breaks every 5minutes. i love that i don't need to run around collecting quests, that is solo stuff from rpg games that i want to do only on rainy days. not be part of the main leveling. it becomes more important that way too, i can take my time and read the story and enjoy it when i don't feel like leveling or doing events. time put in, is time put in. same thing, just preference.

3. for sure helps create a better community, you can't be a dick to much in a mmo where you need 8players to level, or a full linkshell of 30-64 people to do an event. people are nice, they work together, they talk and have fun. if you run out on a group, people take notice, if your an ass people take notice. it's not solo people in same area, it's a party in an area full of parties.

calling this old way obsolete is just dumb, it works and the new way is only to satisfy the solo'ists and casuals to the point where they are fighting teeth and nail to keep it that way. how can they not love not having to depend on people in an online game. and play well with others. there is a place for all types of play styles but we all deserve a mmo that we can enjoy. and we all should have some stuff in mmo's that match our game style. they butchered this mmo from the looks of it. sorry but that is a fact to many. and we will have to just wait and see ...but the majority know it deep in there heads. you people are going to be playing by yourselves within 6months.

I don't think exp parties are ancient, I think that there are way too many ppl with this "I only have 30 mins to play" BS. Dude if you only have 30 min - an hour of play time maybe you should camp an NM or something, go role play with your pals. I and many others love the exp pt grind over the new methods i.e. Boring ass quests that mean nothing to you or the story, and the ever so popular instanced dungeons. This game sounds like so many games out right now its not even funny. I think I would rather have it be like one other game, you know that game that this very same company owns lolol.

Strallaalaa you are right. Its sad to see SE go the popular route. You know all these ppl crying about exp parties will be all for it when its the optimal way of gaining exp. I sure hope it is. As im beta testing ill be bringing this up alot I just hope they listen.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

will yoshi-p made it very clear that grind party would just not work in 2.0 and that what we going by. So if quest,dungeon,leve quest give way more exp a hour then grind party then that what people going to do is simple be in town /sh dumb shit while waiting for dungeon finder to find them a party not if there something else we don't know yet about getting exp that how i see things going quest and dungeon which i don't mind i can care less i stop careing about grind party long time ago it good to get in with the times and stop bitching about stuff you can't control like so many people on here so ya i agree people complain for noting.

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That is the most rediculous run on sentence I have ever read. Unintelligibility has taken on a whole new meaning. Sakes!

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Instead of asking for group quests and a large variety of group dungeons... people ask for boring grind parties. I'm still not sure why there are so, so many people asking for ancient outdated and boring game design.

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This. Anyone who was alive in that era will remember how we leveled in EQ1. Hours upon hours of grind parties. Form group, go to camp, set up camp(buffs etc.), pull mobs to camp, kill mobs, rinse, repeat....ad nauseum. What, you're level capped? Ok, go grind some AA's. Just dinged your 100th or so AA? Have another couple hundred. Really....we don't need to go back to EQ1 style party grinding as the only acceptable method for grinding levels. I'am agreeing with you Wolfie, just in case :).


P.S. This means multiple forms of gathering exp need to be viable.

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

so wait killing mobs is boring? sorry but most don't read the quests, so what we got is people running around collecting quests they don't read and running around zones to kill a couple of mobs that even in ffxiv looks like they are no dynamics to the fight at all, let alone other mmo's since ffxi. so how they heck do you say that the vise versa is boring. in grind groups your doing what lots consider fun, killing monsters. lots of people don't need breaks to check on there kids or give there wives a smooch every 5minutes in between playing and lets not kid ourselves its the breaks between each quest that is more reason a reason to like quests then anything. if you need to trick your mind by thinking yaay there is a reason to kill mobs then i don't know what to say. most don't need to, just pretend it's the same reason from every frigin game in creation lol. chose a class that suits you, pick a class to solo with (bst,pup,smn) pick brd to run around pulling mobs, many other classes are dynamic and need to pay lots of attention too, or easy crap like warrior. (i'm taking ffxi as an example) but you get the point, every class doesn't need to be the same right? that is like saying everyone deserves the same boring crap you want in a game cause one has an arrow and one doesn't.

in the end i love grinds simply cause 1. i get to party with a bunch of people, it is almost always different people but hey you can also do it with the same people i know lots that do that. heck i did leve linking with the same group all way to 50 on a good 4classes. (it was boring and why i hate the direction this game is going) ffxi i felt like i knew half or more of the server cause of this and large scale events.

2. no down time ...i don't need breaks every 5minutes. i love that i don't need to run around collecting quests, that is solo stuff from rpg games that i want to do only on rainy days. not be part of the main leveling. it becomes more important that way too, i can take my time and read the story and enjoy it when i don't feel like leveling or doing events. time put in, is time put in. same thing, just preference.

3. for sure helps create a better community, you can't be a dick to much in a mmo where you need 8players to level, or a full linkshell of 30-64 people to do an event. people are nice, they work together, they talk and have fun. if you run out on a group, people take notice, if your an ass people take notice. it's not solo people in same area, it's a party in an area full of parties.

calling this old way obsolete is just dumb, it works and the new way is only to satisfy the solo'ists and casuals to the point where they are fighting teeth and nail to keep it that way. how can they not love not having to depend on people in an online game. and play well with others. there is a place for all types of play styles but we all deserve a mmo that we can enjoy. and we all should have some stuff in mmo's that match our game style. they butchered this mmo from the looks of it. sorry but that is a fact to many. and we will have to just wait and see ...but the majority know it deep in there heads. you people are going to be playing by yourselves within 6months.

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Another person who supports grind parties seems to totally forget we will have dungeon finder for group leveling needs.

I take questing over grind partys. Remember when that whm had to go and there was no replacement? Yeah party broke and you were back to shouting in town really annoyed because you were just a few thousand exp from leveling.

As long as they have all the options for every playstyle I'm happy, just don't force this party grinding monster on the ones that rather level in other ways.

Can't really say much due to the NDA still being in place, but there are more options. Including 4 options mentioned.

i just hope we don't need a full party just to quest.

I'm pretty sure partying will still be useful. Seeing as ARR will have quicker battles, maybe it will even be faster than leves or quests?
But levelling ONLY using quests... Sure, might work a few times. I'd give it 3 jobs, at least -- One from each starting city. That is, getting a job from 1 to 50 only using the quests in one city/region. I'm fairly sure they won't have enough quests for each player to level all 8 launch battle jobs to 50 (let alone jobs added later)... It's just too many quests. So yeah, after a few L50s we'll probably go back to the good ol' leves and grinds.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Another person who supports grind parties seems to totally forget we will have dungeon finder for group leveling needs.

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You fail to realize that a decent portion of the population does not like dungeon grinding as the only option. It is a nice feature and the game should have it but it alone is not enough. It removes you from the game world. It is like playing Diablo town and warp to dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

It is like playing Diablo town and warp to dungeon.

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you mean like D3? I bought that game, played for like an hour, hated it, never played it again.. All the stupid achievements every 10 seconds.. the porting straight to boss battle... the whole thing was terrible... a horrible view into the MMORPG gaming community of today. Instant gratification for everything.... If this game turns out like that.. I'll probably just stick to ffxi. The new expansion looks pretty sweet :D

What SE is doing is giving us options. Those who like party quest mob grinding can do so, no one is stopping them, those who like questing, can do so. Those who have 20hours a day to play will gain more exp party grinding then the solo'ist who has a life outside of the game. He may actually have a chance to catch up with the "rested" exp and quest rewards. I support both. SE has made it clear that there are going to be many options for leveling. I said before (this thread or another one, cant remember now) that the players will only gimp themselves by declaring "one" way is the only way to play "or u iz n00b!1!"

Speaking for myself (not that any of you 1337's care) I am part of the demographic that grew up playing from FF1 on the NES and on, I supported SE in their ride to present day. I'm glad that with one of their numbered Final Fantasy's that they have not forgotten that most of us now are grown up, have families of our own, real jobs, and other commitments. Thank You SE for not forgetting about the players who still love your games but may not have the time and hours to commit on a daily basis.

Also thank you SE for providing content for the younger generation or those with more time to commit to a game like this. The Bachelor, the student, the freebird, who wants a deep lasting challenge and variety of content. Who wants to have something to occupy their time and be enjoyable for years to come. SE has End Game content planned for you and challenges that you can look forward to and they can expand upon to satiate your desires for time sinks.

There are so many things planned for this game, dont blind yourselves through your narrow focus on a single aspect. I cant even say you have legitimate fears at this point, I havent played ARR yet. I dont know what their finished product will look or feel like. I have high hopes it will be fun for both styles of gamers based on the things they have told us so far. As a whole.

Diablo 3 is not an MMO, dudes.

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Originally Posted by KittenStomper

you mean like D3? I bought that game, played for like an hour, hated it, never played it again.. All the stupid achievements every 10 seconds.. the porting straight to boss battle... the whole thing was terrible... a horrible view into the MMORPG gaming community of today. Instant gratification for everything.... If this game turns out like that.. I'll probably just stick to ffxi. The new expansion looks pretty sweet :D

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Except D3 is not an MMORPG, its an ARPG with a multiplayer feature. I found it fun for my first solo playthrough, havent really played it since. Although i did watch my 7yo son play through and beat D3 with a Barbarian using only the mouse...

The traditional xp party looks like it will still be an option, problem may be that mobs die so fast that with 8 people wailing on everything in sight finding enough mobs to keep it going might be an issue.

I guess I won't be questing until the level cap is raised then.. Being all 50 would mean I get no xp for the effort.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

I think the real problem lies with the players. No matter how many different ways they put in for leveling, how many varied areas to grind, or how much extensive content, eventually the players will find " the best way" of leveling or playing and then if anyone thinks outside that box they become a "n00b" or aren't playing it right. The players will gimp their gaming experience themselves for the sake of the path of least resistance.

Take FFXI, everyone leveled in the Valkrum Dunes... why? I know the Pashaow Marshlands was the exact same level range, had a different variety of monsters, yet no one leveled as a party there and you could not convince people to go there. Ok, there was the subjob quest in Dunes but it was one quest. Same thing happens in WoW. When I really got into it they had just released Wrath of the Litch King and no matter what I tried no one was willing or interested in running me through the "end game" story for the original game or burning crusade. Bad luck on my part? Maybe.

Sad thing is SE could add in all the things everyone wants but the players will put their own restrictions on themselves then complain that "we have to do it a certain way". I think what SE has planned, that they have let us in on so far, sounds great. They have a lot of different ways to play ARR and lots of content, the only problem will be what the players choose to do with it.

EDIT:
And then as i typed this Xtash proved my point...

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This, this, and more of this!

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I find grinding same group of mobs over and over again at the same spot half AFK is boring as hell

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Ditto...I never want to see it again, and wouldn't mind seeing those who want only that method to leave.

Since ppl are so scared of the party grind I kinda hope its the best way to lvl up. There are tons of excuses from ppl its actually kinda funny how just because you had crap luck you dont want certain things in this game. If you really want to make this into casual easy mode you can just say that instead ,quit beating around the bush. Candyland is what you want go buy that. I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one that wants a challenging game.

Never said I didn't want a challenge...never said I couldn't grind...I played XI...I know the drill. I just said there are better ways than the tedious monotony that is mob grind parties. Everyone else I have read here that is saying no to it like me, are saying exactly what I am saying.

I know its hard to make everyone happy. I just hope they don't shy away from a system that worked for many years.

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Originally Posted by Takeshi_Eiketsu

Never said I didn't want a challenge...never said I couldn't grind...I played XI...I know the drill. I just said there are better ways than the tedious monotony that is mob grind parties. Everyone else I have read here that is saying no to it like me, are saying exactly what I am saying.

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Originally Posted by schism

Since ppl are so scared of the party grind I kinda hope its the best way to lvl up. There are tons of excuses from ppl its actually kinda funny how just because you had crap luck you dont want certain things in this game. If you really want to make this into casual easy mode you can just say that instead ,quit beating around the bush. Candyland is what you want go buy that. I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one that wants a challenging game.

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OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD letting a F-ing WAR steel cyclone for your half afk ass to exp for a few hours is as face-to-desk-easy as it gets whats so hardcore about that? the hardest part about it was finding a camp Its YOU who wants it in silver-plate-easy and don't want to do the slightest effort to follow quest instructions ,finding the correct place and learn the story behind it