Game Economy and the gil redenomination

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Originally Posted by Ferth

In no way, shape, or form is this a counter RMT measure. Getting angry about it because it doesn't fix the issue with RMT is like getting angry at your car because it doesn't fly.

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I didnt say it WAS meant to be a counter RMT measure.. read my post. I simply said that it would have the effect of driving up RMT profits, and that the end result is the purchasing power of the gil you have now WILL be diminished by continued inflation, since the real economy in this game has NOTHING to do with NPC prices.

The prices people decide to list items for isn't going to be proportionate to 1/10th of what people list the same items for now lol, you guys are oblivious for believing that. Maybe some items will be listed for less than 1/10th of what they sell for now, but probably more of them will be listed for more, and no matter what if someone needs something that they can't farm themselves they will buy it.

This game isn't like the real world economy. People can, and do buy gil in this game, and it has a huge effect on the driving prices up in this game. With all the gil being bought more people can buy stuff, and as such undercutting doesn't have time to have as much of an effect on average sales prices. You guy think because they are cutting your savings by 1/10th it's all going to magically balance out the economy, but it isn't going to work out that way. You're just being naive. Prices are obviously going to be reduced but it's impossible to predict what the total average drop will be, and that chances are small its going to actually be 1/10th. It could turn out to be 2/10ths or even 9/10ths, but either way we're the ones who lose.

Even if this was like the real world economy your income doesn't effect the price of sales as much as you would think... The average income of households have increased over time, but the amount they've increase isn't proportionate to the cost of things. That's to say, even though people make more money today than they did in 1950 for example, the cost of a car today vs the car cost/income ratio in 1950 is way more.

These statistics are for the united states:
The average income in 1950 was $3,210.00, and the average cost of a new car was $1,510.00
The average income in 2011 was $31,111.00, and the average cost of a new car was $30,303.00
You do the math...

How much money you have isn't as big of a factor in the price of sales, that's true for real life, and it's especially true for a game where you can make money appear out of nowhere just by calling your friends over in China.

P.s.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Unless you are saying that angry as you are you're still willing to stupidly over pay for items after 2.0 and you assume everyone else is as dumb as you are your argument is a lot of huff and bluster.

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You should stop calling people dumb, coming from you it sounds ludicrous. Not a good strategy... lol

they're dropping all gil influx by a 1/10 multiplier, not just NPC prices. quest rewards, enemy drops, npc sale prices, everything. it's the same thing as trading in $1's for $10's across the board. you're now holding 1,000 $10's instead of 10,000 $1's, and you earn 50 $10's a day instead of 500 $1's. this is why they say your earnings and your purchasing power in the greater economy will not change relative to the way it is now.

Right, but you are blaming the inflation on the RMT and complaining that they will still continue to effect the economy from the stand point that redenomination isn't going to fix it. When it's not supposed to. It's not a counter measure for future inflation it's a reactionary measure to current inflation.

And really profit margin for RMT is not going to shift much either. They have to deal with the same loss as everyone else and if they don't adjust accordingly their sales will suffer. They won't suddenly have tons more gil than they used to that is suddenly worth more.

My guess is RMT hasn't been a huge priority for the dev team yet because, really, who cares about buying money in ffxiv right now?

When they decide to take actual measures against RMT then you can critique and make suggestions on what their plan is. But saying this is a useless endeavor because it doesn't fix something it's not intended to fix is a silly argument to make.

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Originally Posted by Promethevs

they're dropping all gil influx by a 1/10 multiplier, not just NPC prices. quest rewards, enemy drops, npc sale prices, everything. it's the same thing as trading in $1's for $10's across the board. you're now holding 1,000 $10's instead of 10,000 $1's, and you earn 50 $10's a day instead of 500 $1's. this is why they say your earnings and your purchasing power in the greater economy will not change relative to the way it is now.

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People don't farm quests or kill mobs for gil, and no one really buys items from npcs... This games main form of income generation is the market wards, so none of that really matters.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

-snipped- (saving space)

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The prices WILL be lowered (but be the same in perspective to gil buying power). The speed that they lower is unkown human factor.

But because ALL inflow gil is at 1/10 its original FFXIV 1.0 value, NO ONE will pay the 1.0 value when examining the situation over a long period of time in 2.0. Paying 1.0 price in 2.0 is paying 10 TIMES the price you would normally.

Its safe to assume that some prices will slowly drop over time, as well as different items will drop significantly or not at all because SE said that some items will not be as good or be better / harder to get.

Summarized:

Yes, with certainty (with variation if there is change in the item itself from 1.0 to 2.0). For 1.0 servers transferring to 2.0 it will likely happen over a curve. There will be 2.0 servers only for new characters - their economy will likely settle on a more accurate number faster (though having a new economy will cause some of its own shorter lasting variations).

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Right, but you are blaming the inflation on the RMT and complaining that they will still continue to effect the economy from the stand point that redenomination isn't going to fix it. When it's not supposed to. It's not a counter measure for future inflation it's a reactionary measure to current inflation.

And really profit margin for RMT is not going to shift much either. They have to deal with the same loss as everyone else and if they don't adjust accordingly their sales will suffer. They won't suddenly have tons more gil than they used to that is suddenly worth more.

My guess is RMT hasn't been a huge priority for the dev team yet because, really, who cares about buying money in ffxiv right now?

When they decide to take actual measures against RMT then you can critique and make suggestions on what their plan is. But saying this is a useless endeavor because it doesn't fix something it's not intended to fix is a silly argument to make.

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Well then we simply have a disagreement. You are basing your assumption of RMTs profits not going up based on the math (they loose 90% too). I am basing mine off of human nature. You log in, see 1/10th the gil you had, you then think "I better earn more." but if you are a gil-buyer you will call. you are right that there will be relatively the same SUPPLY after 2,0 as before. But you are forgetting the second law of economics. With a sudden reduction in the amount of gil in gil-buyers loot-pool, demand will skyrocket.

either way i have to get back to work. Cant stay on forums forever. You have your opinion and i have mine. We will both eventually see who is right, and if you are the beer is on me (though I might not be in game long enough to see)

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Originally Posted by Mijin

People don't farm quests or kill mobs for gil, and no one really buys items from npcs... This games main form of income generation is the market wards, so none of that really matters.

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But how do you think gil came to be in the first place? The game had 0 gil in its economy upon release, Guildleves and vendoring items is how the gil came to be. Player selling a player an item doesnt create gil in the system, all that other stuff you say doesnt matter does.

No one is arguing that people will or will not buy items in 2.0 for 1.0 prices, I highly doubt the majority will try to sell for 1.0 prices anyway. The issue here is that they told us buying power would not change. That is a flat out lie.

Obviously prices will go down for the most part, however the market wards are what determine everything and SE has 0 control over that.

People aren't upset that their 1 mil is going to be 100k, at least that's not why I'm upset. I'm annoyed because they said buying power would remain the same and it clearly won't.

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Originally Posted by wolfsraine

No one is arguing that people will or will not buy items in 2.0 for 1.0 prices, I highly doubt the majority will try to sell for 1.0 prices anyway. The issue here is that they told us buying power would not change. That is a flat out lie.

Obviously prices will go down for the most part, however the market wards are what determine everything and SE has 0 control over that.

People aren't upset that their 1 mil is going to be 100k, at least that's not why I'm upset. I'm annoyed because they said buying power would remain the same and it clearly won't.

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Buying power is the same in relation to npcs, quests, and the other things that only matter. Players have the ability to ignore SE concrete but they will lose over time. I encourage all those rich people to waste their money on 10x the prices, then I will be the rich one without farming.

So yes, Buying power is the same (at least in a long run perspective). If you are taking an instantaneous snap shot of the first day of FFXIV ARR then maybe not. But your gil's buying power changes everyday in FFXIV 1.0 as well.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

The prices people decide to list items for isn't going to be proportionate to 1/10th of what people list the same items for now lol, you guys are oblivious for believing that. Maybe some items will be listed for less than 1/10th of what they sell for now, but probably more of them will be listed for more, and no matter what if someone needs something that they can't farm themselves they will buy it.

This game isn't like the real world economy. People can, and do buy gil in this game, and it has a huge effect on the driving prices up in this game. With all the gil being bought more people can buy stuff, and as such undercutting doesn't have time to have as much of an effect on average sales prices. You guy think because they are cutting your savings by 1/10th it's all going to magically balance out the economy, but it isn't going to work out that way. You're just being naive. Prices are obviously going to be reduced but it's impossible to predict what the total average drop will be, and that chances are small its going to actually be 1/10th. It could turn out to be 2/10ths or even 9/10ths, but either way we're the ones who lose.

Even if this was like the real world economy your income doesn't effect the price of sales as much as you would think... The average income of households have increased over time, but the amount they've increase isn't proportionate to the cost of things. That's to say, even though people make more money today than they did in 1950 for example, the cost of a car today vs the car cost/income ratio in 1950 is way more.

These statistics are for the united states:
The average income in 1950 was $3,210.00, and the average cost of a new car was $1,510.00
The average income in 2011 was $31,111.00, and the average cost of a new car was $30,303.00
You do the math...

How much money you have isn't as big of a factor in the price of sales, that's true for real life, and it's especially true for a game where you can make money appear out of nowhere just by calling your friends over in China.

P.s.

You should stop calling people dumb, coming from you it sounds ludicrous. Not a good strategy... lol

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First, I didn't call you stupid. I said you would have to be stupid to pay 1.0 prices for 2.0 items. It's up to you whether you want to do that when 2.0 rolls around.

You seem to think that we are moving into the same exact economy we are leaving when 2.0 arrives, and you are making arguments from that standpoint.

The economy in 2.0 will be brand new. Redenomination is not going to effect that. It will still be a brand new economy even if they don't change the amount of gil in the game.

The window for abuse purely because of redenomination is significantly smaller than the window for abuse just from the economical reset that 2.0 will represent, so trying to blame all of your perceived fears on the redenomination is a silly endeavor.

No one is saying that the player driven economy is going to drop to exactly 1/10th of what it is now, largely because it's not even going to be the same economy.

But in actuality everyone will be moving in to the new economy with the same relative wealth they will have leaving this economy. That is fact, regardless of how the economy will change, everyone will have the same relative wealth. And those changes are far more dependent on everything else that will change in 2.0 than they are on how much money everyone has.

Here is my "prediction":

How much does an Iron Chaser Hammer go on your server for right now? How much does a raw rubellite go for? How much does yew lumber go for? How much does diremite web go for?

Now the way I figure out my answers to these questions is by looking at the pricing history and how many are currently for sale on my server. If there's a lot up for sale and the history shows only two selling in the last week, I'm going to probably try to undercut the lowest. If none of the item are up for sale I'm probably going to list higher than the average sale price. Etc...

Now let's assume you knew the answers to all the questions above. Take a three month break, come back, look at your gil and try to remember what you answered for each of those questions. Most likely, you will not be able to. You're going to look at what people are listing the items for and determining if with the gil you have (and the pricing history if people are paying those prices) and how hard it would be for you to farm the item yourself, if it's worth your money.

So my "prediction", once 2.0 eventually hits, probably around March, most people will not even be able to remember the pricing that we know now and the market will automatically adjust to what people are reasonably willing to pay for items, and quickly. I expect for about 2ish weeks that there will be things sold for extremely inflated prices due to ignorance, and other items which have since become extremely valuable that sold for much less. I expect that there will be new players that will join our servers even when given the option to start on fresh ones creating more of a market for low level items.

What I don't expect: The redenomination of gil to have any meanigful impact on the in game economy. The only thing that's going to drastically effect the new economy is going to be how they rebalance the battle system and which items become increasingly rare to gatehrers/important to crafters. That's it.

And to all the people who are whining about high prices, dont forget that you can to farm up some of those "super expensive" items and then be the seller that charges "2x the price"

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Originally Posted by Reika

But how do you think gil came to be in the first place? The game had 0 gil in its economy upon release, Guildleves and vendoring items is how the gil came to be. Player selling a player an item doesnt create gil in the system, all that other stuff you say doesnt matter does.

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It mattered in the first week of the game, but not now because players have money already. Even new players will make the majority of their profits by selling items on the market wards. Those things only matter when everyone on the server is at 0 gil.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

First, I didn't call you stupid.

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Sorry for them misunderstanding then.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

But in actuality everyone will be moving in to the new economy with the same relative wealth they will have leaving this economy. That is fact, regardless of how the economy will change, everyone will have the same relative wealth. And those changes are far more dependent on everything else that will change in 2.0 than they are on how much money everyone has.

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Everyone who already plays the game will be moving into the new economy with the same scaled down wealth with 1/10th of what they have now, but it's important to consider new players will be starting out with 0, and I'm sure there will be a lot of new players. As such, the real impact of this scale down will be seen when we know how fast new players are able to obtain gil. If the prices of items on the market wards stays relatively high they will be able to catch up to us quickly, and that will be what really devalues our current savings.

The point I'm trying to make is that unless the items on the market ward are listed for prices directly proportionate to 1/10th (or less) of what they are now - we lose.

I don't really care about this that much, and I don't think it's the end of the world. It was probably necessary to complement the impending influx of new players, and there was really no way to avoid it. But it just bothers me to see so many people being naive about the subject.

I think majority reason why the prices are so high because of people are impulsive buyers if no one buy's the item for that insane amount eventually prices will go down. For me I am not going to buy something at that ridiculous price and will try to attain it on my own or level craft to make it myself. But I do believe impulsive buying is the root problem of mmo economy if you got people willing to buy those items at that insane amount you will have it for the rest of life of the mmo and they say the 1% is greedy.

Will this gimp me on some gear down the line because I don't buy it sure or maybe not, but at least I have my integrity and principles intact and not go on impulsive buying and add to the problem.

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Originally Posted by odintius

I think majority reason why the prices are so high because of people are impulsive buyers if no one buy's the item for that insane amount eventually prices will go down. For me I am not going to buy something at that ridiculous price and will try to attain it on my own or level craft to make it myself. But I do believe impulsive buying is the root problem of mmo economy if you got people willing to buy those items at that insane amount you will have it for the rest of life of the mmo and they say the 1% is greedy.

Will this gimp me on some gear down the line because I don't buy it sure or maybe not, but at least I have my integrity and principles intact and not go on impulsive buying and add to the problem.

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I don't buy a lot of things because I can make/gather everything myself. Unless I'm really pressed for time then I do, but the majority of players cannot farm, make everything themselves so they are forced to buy. Expecting people not to buy something that they need because the price is too high is like expecting people to stop buying gas because it's too expensive... It's just not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I don't buy a lot of things because I can make/gather everything myself. Unless I'm really pressed for time then I do, but the majority of players cannot farm, make everything themselves so they are forced to buy. Expecting people not to buy something that they need because the price is too high is like expecting people to stop buying gas because it's too expensive... It's just not going to happen.

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Then you will have what I said on first paragraph last sentence so I guess get use to it and be the gullible average person who will just except what giving to them.

Three factors:

Supply
Demand
The amount of gil players have.

These have always and will always be what influences and sets the market. Obviously people can alter the amount of gil they have by buying gil...but these changes have nothing to do with that. What they are changing, is reducing the amount of gil players have by /a lot/. Seems obvious to me that the market would therefore readjust to this. IDK, maybe instead of using common sense people will skip directly to breaking ToS, risking losing everything, and buying gil. Time will tell. Personally, I'm going to be thinking a lot about the 1m gil I have and how it used to be 10m and will spend it accordingly.

Also, everyone talking about buying gil surely realizes that its probably going to be about 10 times more expensive to buy gil, right? So obviously not as much gil will be bought....

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Originally Posted by Reika

if electrum ore currently is 3000 gil each on the norm, and people change it to 300gil each in 2.0, nothing will have changed. Gil numbers just get smaller, that is all.

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The way you gather the ores changes and so the prices change, too

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Originally Posted by Mijin

People don't farm quests or kill mobs for gil, and no one really buys items from npcs... This games main form of income generation is the market wards, so none of that really matters.

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Say it to the people who made millions before the atomos fix.
If no one sell to npc and no one make quests, then there would be no gil in the market.

If i buy something I'm looking on the time aspect.
The time I need to earn the money vers. the time I need to farm/craft the item myself

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Everyone who already plays the game will be moving into the new economy with the same scaled down wealth with 1/10th of what they have now, but it's important to consider new players will be starting out with 0, and I'm sure there will be a lot of new players. As such, the real impact of this scale down will be seen when we know how fast new players are able to obtain gil. If the prices of items on the market wards stays relatively high they will be able to catch up to us quickly, and that will be what really devalues our current savings.

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I can certainly appreciate the fear there.

But you have to remember the game those new players will be coming into (hopefully) won't resemble anything like what a new player right now will see.

Yoshi-p estimated 30 hours to get to level 15 (compared to the 1-2 required right now.)

There will be a series of quests that new players are following to introduce them to game mechanics and features, all of which potentially reward them with money or items or both.

And even if sundry items do go up in relative price after 2.0 comes out, as long as the wards are sufficiently understandable and approachable in 2.0 then that means those new players will be able to take advantage of those same prices in selling their loot.

We haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to 2.0 changes. All things considered, the redenomination is pretty minor.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

It mattered in the first week of the game, but not now because players have money already. Even new players will make the majority of their profits by selling items on the market wards. Those things only matter when everyone on the server is at 0 gil.


Sorry for them misunderstanding then.



Everyone who already plays the game will be moving into the new economy with the same scaled down wealth with 1/10th of what they have now, but it's important to consider new players will be starting out with 0, and I'm sure there will be a lot of new players. As such, the real impact of this scale down will be seen when we know how fast new players are able to obtain gil. If the prices of items on the market wards stays relatively high they will be able to catch up to us quickly, and that will be what really devalues our current savings.

The point I'm trying to make is that unless the items on the market ward are listed for prices directly proportionate to 1/10th (or less) of what they are now - we lose.

I don't really care about this that much, and I don't think it's the end of the world. It was probably necessary to complement the impending influx of new players, and there was really no way to avoid it. But it just bothers me to see so many people being naive about the subject.

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People still very well make money off of guildleves and vendoring items. where do you think the millions and millions of gil came from? You think after the first few weeks there was 500m gil or more in the economy? lol no. It didnt pop up out of nowhere. its going to continue to be created through guildleves, quests, and vendoring items. Thats how it goes in an MMORPG.

The amount of panic going on over this is just insane: It doesn't really matter at all what people do initially. Over time the market and economy will balance out based on supply and demand and the situation will become stable, even if it's not perfectly stable right away. Players may want to be conservative the first few weeks to give the economy time to re-establish itself. After that, things will basically be business as usual.

There really aren't going to be any big winners or losers out of redenomination. Attempting to exploit it is mostly a futile gesture. I for one am rather happy about being able to work with smaller numbers.

There is too much panic, and the ones panicing over it just dont want to lower their prices to go along with the new system. Gotta have that feeling that you're making big money or some dum crap. drop your stuff to 1/10 in 2.0 and get over it, its not going to negatively impact you. Or dont, and dont sell anything. Won't hurt me none any way they chose.

Maybe it is wrong to say 'lower your price'. Your price will be the same in ARR as it is now if you change along with the system.

Pricing will balance itself per the supply and demand and new needs/wants introduced in ARR (some items may become more valuable and vice versa).

Even if they don't change the gil denomination, an item that's priced as 1000 gil today may not be 1000 gil in ARR anyway (it may even change tomorrow).

This is interesting because while the value of the currencies is lowering the standard price of goods on the player market will remain the same. This is called inflation and in this case may even be high-per inflation. here is the real kicker and the reason why your husband will be right in the end; as people with vast sums of gill begin purchasing the highest ticket items they will be in turn reducing the amount of gill they have at a higher rate then they did before(due to their own fortunes being devalued), so what this will do is it will slowly begin to turn the market towards a happy medium. What we will see is over time people will have to unload more goods at lower prices to insure they have enough gill to compete for those higher priced items while at the same time those people with items priced at the top will begin to see people undercut them and they in turn will be forced to lower their prices. Now we also do not know what other gill sinks SE will be implementing and this to can further lower prices. Now as far as gill sellers go that is harder to predict and will primarily be based on how popular the game gets after relaunch.

if only they could have changed the name of the currency i think this perceived issue would vanish... but of course we are stuck with gil.

Its important to remember, and we so easily forget, that people can set any price for any item they want, what determines the market is what the consumer is willing to pay for. Of course, this requires people that HAVE the gil to buy overpriced items to also have the patience to not fork over gil for something with a 75% mark up. This of course will be helped by how well or how poorly the new market system is.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Ok, so my husband is mad at me because we have opposing viewpoints on the 'currency redenomination' plan of SE.

He is operating on the assumption that the game economy will work exactly like a real life economy and balance itself.

I am operating on the assumption that in an economy where you can buy gil, behavior will not match the real world.

That is the 'too long didn't read' version.

I admit that he does have some very valid points that I do not argue with.
-Everyone's gil is being reduced
-Any quest that provides gil will have the reward reduced
-The total gil being held by gil-seller's is reduced
-The total gil available in the world is reduced

The points that I have, he refuses to acknowledge
-Gil-sellers reduced amount of gil will be important for about a day before they restock
-Market ward pricing will not be automatically adjusted
-Sellers will have no real reason to reduce their prices because someone will have enough gil to purchase what they are selling

It is that last point that he so vehemently disagrees with. He thinks that no one will purchase the highly priced triple melded gear if the seller does not reduce their price.

I say that the seller has no real incentive to do so. Most likely, they don't *need* the gil to survive, and will not be forced into lowering the price. People who bought gil before, will buy it again. Elite groups that kill high level nm's with rare drops will continue to corner the market on that, and they have no real incentive to lower their prices either. Crafters that have access to elite groups that spiritbond gear at a high rate will continue to double and triple meld gear using high level materia. Because they are supported by elite groups, they also will have no compelling reason to reduce their prices.

So I'd like to open the discussion into the above. Will the prices on market wards be lowered with regard to the highest priced items? Someone prove me wrong without getting mad at me and giving me the silent treatment.

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Economist Answer:

By reducing currency you create a long-term psychological effect, whereby prices are more stable as there is less opportunity for variable pricing.

In the very short term (1-3weeks) supply of items will probably be less than demand, resulting in high prices
As prices will be uncertain, most individuals will probably try to price above natural equilibrium
Overtime this -WILL- return to equilibrium (where supply = demand) as overpriced products will simply not sell

Since economies (including this one) all naturally move towards equilibirum, and since the new game is supposed to have an AH, prices will stabalize.

What is a stable price? Its the price where supply (how many are available) meets the exact demand (people willing to pay x-amount).
If overpriced, there is more supply than demand, this means that some suppliers will not be able to sell their goods. As it takes up inventory space, and as many of them need gil for other things, they will lower their price or "undercut"
If underpriced, there is more demand than supply, meaning at the low price, people buy -all- the goods and there are no more avalable. Here it makes sense that people would increase the price as its clear people are willing to pay more.

The market will always move to equilibrium whatever happens, for each individual item. However, depending on the supply of items (altered by changes to how the items obtained or the drop rate), items may cost more or less than previously.

However, since everyone is having their gil cut, everyone will still have the -EXACT- same purchasing power relative to others.

So in response to your points:
Gil sellers will relatively have the same amount of gil now. And whether or not they effect the economy will depend on how gil is obtained in 2.0. If they took 1.0 and just reduced everyones gil RIGHT NOW without changing anything, gil sellers would have no effect on market prices if they act the same way they currently do. However, 2.0 will cause an influx of new players and thus an influx of gil sellers resulting in slight inflation from gil seller gil (combined with associated price increases). This prob wont occur for about 3 weeks.

Market ward pricing will quickly adjust. So if your smart, don't buy stuff for the first few days because prices will probably fall drastically from what people "think" prices should be (read supply and demand above for explanation)

Sellers will have to drop prices because of supply and demand and equilibrium. Even if some people are willing to buy at a high price, not enough will to keep prices at that level. When things don't sell, people will drastically undercut. so at first sellers may try to sell high but within a week they will drop prices (most likely to 1/10th the level).

So what effect will gil reduction have?
It completely depends on the ability to attain gil in game. If it is equal to now, it will have no effect at all (other than a long term psychological one)

so thats the economics argument for all this. I tried to simplify it so if any other economists see this, I do realize its a bit more complicated than that :p but i doubt ppl here would understand utility curves and such.

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This is interesting because while the value of the currencies is lowering the standard price of goods on the player market will remain the same.

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Ummmmmm... no, you don't understand this at all.

The value of currency is staying (roughly) the same. The number of units you have decreases, but their value increases porportionally, therefore you have the same buying power. The standard price of goods will not stay as they are now, because nobody (or not enough) will be able to afford them. Supply and demand will prevent exploiters from keeping prices high for any length of time. Markets correct themselves over time. The same is true in real life.

If you try to sell a 10 mil item now for 10 mil in 2.0, only a small fraction of people would still be able to pay that price, and they wouldn't want to either. You might be able to sell an item like that, but it will take much longer. It's inefficient and anyone with any common sense will drop their price until it reaches a point where enough people are willing to buy it.
(dammit, I wish I could make this bigger and make it flash and glow or something)

There is not going to be mass market chaos. There will not be a cataclysm. Everything will be fine and people need to, for the love of the Twelve, stop panicking and just be patient and let things happen.

(okay, there will be a cataclysm, but it will just be the 7th Umbral Era, not a market crash)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Ummmmmm... no, you don't understand this at all.

The value of currency is staying (roughly) the same. The number of units you have decreases, but their value increases porportionally, therefore you have the same buying power. The standard price of goods will not stay as they are now, because nobody (or not enough) will be able to afford them. Supply and demand will prevent exploiters from keeping prices high for any length of time. Markets correct themselves over time. The same is true in real life.

If you try to sell a 10 mil item now for 10 mil in 2.0, only a small fraction of people would still be able to pay that price, and they wouldn't want to either. You might be able to sell an item like that, but it will take much longer. It's inefficient and anyone with any common sense will drop their price until it reaches a point where enough people are willing to buy it.
(dammit, I wish I could make this bigger and make it flash and glow or something)

There is not going to be mass market chaos. There will not be a cataclysm. Everything will be fine and people need to, for the love of the Twelve, stop panicking and just be patient and let things happen.

(okay, there will be a cataclysm, but it will just be the 7th Umbral Era, not a market crash)

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It would seem you did not read all of what I said. i said pretty much the same thing Azurymber said with slightly less finesse and eloquence.

What Azurymber said. I'm tired of the debate already and thought it died out with the last Gil Reduction thread

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Originally Posted by Mijin

These statistics are for the united states:
The average income in 1950 was $3,210.00, and the average cost of a new car was $1,510.00
The average income in 2011 was $31,111.00, and the average cost of a new car was $30,303.00
You do the math...

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There are lots of extra luxuries added to cars over the years that are now considered standard essential features, in addition to mandated safety features and hidden taxes that have inflated the price of the 2011 car.

Apples-to-apples, I'd bet that the car of 1950 would clock in at under $9,000 today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mijin

How much money you have isn't as big of a factor in the price of sales, that's true for real life, and it's especially true for a game where you can make money appear out of nowhere just by calling your friends over in China.

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Not just in games lol.


Back OT:

The markets will be chaotic in the beginning of ARR, and not just because of the currency conversion, but also due to changes in drop rates and the way items are attained. It will take some time but things will reach equilibrium just as they always do.

The good thing is that because we have a relatively stable market to base things off of, and we have a clear conversion value, we should see the market level off relatively quickly compared to other new games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

There are lots of extra luxuries added to cars over the years that are now considered standard essential features, in addition to mandated safety features and hidden taxes that have inflated the price of the 2011 car.

Apples-to-apples, I'd bet that the car of 1950 would clock in at under $9,000 today.

(yeah, I get your point though)





Not just in games lol.

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Actually my dad had a 57 chevy hot wheels side step truck it was 10k when he bought it he ended up having to sell it for about 5k or a little more but the there was an issue with the trans =) but you are right older cars are very expensive still too due to the ascetic value of the car and it's rarity now. I wish I had the money to buy a belaire.

People, the game is drastically changing. Even if the gil value wasn't being changed, the current value of items will mean nothing in 2.0 meaning people will need to adjust the prices of items to meet new demand.

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There are lots of extra luxuries added to cars over the years that are now considered standard essential features, in addition to mandated safety features and hidden taxes that have inflated the price of the 2011 car.

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And the equipment that cars have always had since the early days has gotten cheaper. The relative price of cars of the past and cars of today is not that different. It's not apples and oranges. If cars today were as basic as they were back in the day, cars would be RIDICULOUSLY cheap compared to what they cost when the car was a new thing.

Well-kept antique cars can increase in value over time on the collector's market.

There's one word that always derails these arguments. "Undercutting." You can sell it for whatever price you think but someone is going to undercut you, and then someones going to undercut them... until the market stabilizes and products are moving as fast as they're being produced. Basic economics, there is not going to be some massive shift. Plus, the people you're likely selling to don't have 999,999,999 gil so they can't pay the 60m prices so the product simply will not move.

so the little gil i have on me now will be reduced to be even less . . . . wow... thats........ So the 8k gil I have on me will become 800 gil . . . . . . . . . . . talk about making the poorer even poorer lol

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Ok, so my husband is mad at me .

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Divorce him NOW

The only way I can see this working is if SE plans to go to a reward/drop system for gear, Especially high end gear. The only way to keep the RMTs at bay is to make said gear "bind upon pick up". That way the only way to dispose of gear will be to sell to NPCs. Unfortunately this will diminish the value of crafting. Tera uses this method and it has had a modicum of success. If they allow the economy to continue as is then the planned changes will eventually be a disaster

The only way I can see this NOT working is if everyone is given a gil machine in their house or inn room. Otherwise, everything will work fine.

RMT will exist whether redenomination happens or not. RMT are not affected positively or negatively by the redenomination, and neither is anyone else.