This seems overly complicated. I agree that materia needs SOME reformation, but this is too much.
Better Materia System
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09-11-2012, 02:00 PMRau
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09-11-2012, 02:03 PMShougunYeah there are some minimal change ideas in this thread as well, page 2 or 3 i think. Problem with them is they introduce other economic problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rau
The reason this idea appears so complex is because it is sourcing together gilsinks that would be lost otherwise. And honestly compared to the current system its not that complex its just a trade of complexity - the purpose is to reward effort and not random luck (RNG as someone put it deserves to die).
If you can come up with a simpler yet economically sound suggestion -- please -- suggest it here or make your own thread! -
09-11-2012, 07:46 PMrina_inverse
okay
I just reread the first post
Screw you for putting AF gear into melding consideration
You hear that!
Screw you! -
09-12-2012, 01:01 AMShougunAnd why is that? It would keep the AF gear competitive for a little while longer. Many many people want to keep wearing their gear* but its no good compared many other options. (Though most players dont realize that, its true AF gear sucks -except for a few pieces that have unique stats that are usually hard to find on a particular piece). *Unless you are a male bard.. ahahaha. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by rina_inverse
Again why against AF materia? This system I suggested takes materia back to its roots, where it was cool. When it was cool, materia never told you that just because this weapon is cool you cant put any materia in it. Just certain weapons had more slots then others. Finally as I said in that post you read AF gear would have less slots as you wanted crafting gear to be increasingly competitive to AF gear but AF gear to be at least semi competitive to crafting gear. With the suggested idea crafting items will still be attractive, they will however take more time/money* to get stronger - the higher level crafting items also have pretty great base stats too (The hippogriph Jerkin and such).
*unless you are poor or a whm you shouldnt be in your AF gear for very long once you hit 50 - I am fairly poor so it took me a while to get out of most of my AF gear (but it wasnt because I thought my AF gear rocked, it was just because I as poor.. It would be nice to actually value your AF gear for a little while longer). -
09-12-2012, 01:09 AMMadruk
I applaud your thought into this, but devs don't read this and no community rep is going to translate that entire post for them.
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09-12-2012, 01:12 AMShougun; ; Very true post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madruk
I'm mainly hoping they translate a part of it so the dev team can make their own system that is largely free of RNG but doesnt mess up our economy.
Maybe I will make learning English for Japanese speakers post... h aha :D Read it Yoshida Read it! :D -
09-12-2012, 01:12 AMAndrien
I agree with some of the OP ideas.
Personally I feel Materia is in FFXIV only in name. It is missing that impact like it has in FFVII. Materia should grow while equipped and the stats should get better as it levels. -
09-12-2012, 01:17 AMShougunYes! Materia is so lame here - very poorly treated. Not epic at all. I wish to feel huge pride having any kind of powerful materia, I will never have that with the current system in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
I shortly wrote about materia getting a sort of spirit bound themselves where their stats are boosted and they can be used as a powerful ingredient to make a higher tier materia. This keeps materia market flooding down (consuming materia) and also makes them a bond with you. I was considering that maybe you could spirit bound them many times to get them to evolve by themselves but I dont want the market to be ruined because of it.
What do you think? I'd also like it if they could evolve through stages, but without making many many many spirit bound levels* on a materia I think it would make the materia market devalued.
*Probably just call it leveling up the materia rather then spirit bound on a materia. -
09-12-2012, 01:19 AMAlhanelem
I understand why rare items usually aren't meldable, but at the same time it's annoying. Why not allow melding but cap it at a single materia?
(The idea is, these rare drop items can be made with higher stats such that you get a good item without having to do anything to it, or you can choose to go for the (mostly) crafted item that is easily obtainable but you must risk breaking to make stronger than the rare item) -
09-12-2012, 01:23 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Yeah a single materia for most rares I think would be very balanced.
A lot of high tier crafting items, that no one uses because they dont want to break them are really hard to make. This system would open them up and be great gear to use - like the vanya robe and hippogrpyh chest piece are a few mil even without any melds.
EDIT: To add upon the above, a big problem with the current system is because you can break your gear most people dont get the best gear to meld onto they get a few tiers lower because they know they will break it like crazy. This causes people to run around in triple melded woolen tights at level 50, hows that 30 defense treating you.. A lot of the time I cant tell if a player is level 30 or 50 if they have non AF gear on.
One of the things to consider with this system is that they are revamping crafting in 2.0 so that it wont take as much grind (similar to other mmorpgs) so therefore they dont need as many "easy" to make items. Make less items but make more money and exp off them. Also they are talking about removing breaking gear from crafts the same or slightly higher level then you. -
09-12-2012, 02:38 AMrina_inverseStay away from lore item, please for the love of God stay away!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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09-12-2012, 03:26 AMShougunReasoning because...? You believe they shouldn't be touched...? because...? Materia in the past has never had an issue with lore - I have no idea why you insist it does now. And in technical sense all items have lore - how much of course varies, but a Vanya sash is not loreless - no item is. Buster sword and materia have sat in a tree for a long time, no one said "I will not add materia to this item to make it stronger because this item has lore".Quote:
Originally Posted by rina_inverse
I can understand breaking important items like AF is not ideal - as they are supposed to be one of a kind. However I have already made the counter measure by saying items will not break through materia implants.
It would be great if you are going to post that you can complete a thought and reason and not just throw out exclamation marks like it adds more meaning and importance to your sentence (it does not). -
09-12-2012, 03:59 AMrina_inverse
oh God
VII and XIV is not the same game. Yoshi has mention it way back that materia is only adopt the term from VII, not the concept
as for AF, not only AF is a lore item, it also a "uniform" for job. how do you expect to keep a uniform still be uniform if you able to augment it stat. and before you start with all materia is uniform, it wont be the same anymore
read Yoshi post again, he mentioned that AF was meant for new player, fresh from their 50, and wanna start the end game. its a prize from SE. thats why SE make it fix drop, not random. thats why SE make it uniform.
trying to meld it will no longer make it uniform because said new player doesnt have the time/skill/money/investment to even meld it, thus beat it purpose. -
09-12-2012, 04:05 AMShougunThank you (+1'd you). Thats something I can at least think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by rina_inverse
I disagree only because I think XIV materia system is poorly done (If i agreed with the current materia system I would have been with you . But as in my OP I have already set the bar that current system will be tossed out - thus all attached ideologies would need to be modified). Until they add really amazing base stat items, people will hardly upgrade their triple meld plus items. And when they do that there will be a larger then usual outcry that they added in new content. Also adding these amazing base stat items will cause a huge inflation of stat gain to a point where we will have +200 strength gloves and of the ridiculous like.
If they make any change to the current materia system it will =seriously= effect the market and gameplay (as making it easier will make it REALLY easy, and no one wants the current system harder). Like I said previously you can patch job the current system but its unfixable in the long term.
The sooner we can throw out the idealogy and system that runs right now and replace it with something long term supportable and less reward to lady luck the better (while maintaing the difficulty of obtaining such amazing statted gear). -
09-12-2012, 04:19 AMrina_inverse
sigh, why its so hard to make you understand
oh well, other will come for you, they will give better explanation
just think of this, dont you think SE havent think about this when they design, create, and then implement it?
if you think your proposal is better than SE, you should work for them -
09-12-2012, 04:23 AMShougunI think when you are designing such a m a s s i v e project you can easily over see a lot of things - it helps to have an outside view. Thats why games are still balancing out their classes well into there 5th and 10th anniversaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by rina_inverse
So have they thought about this? Maybe.. maybe not. Unless someone has a brain tap on Yoshida we dont know. Who speaking of when first came into "office" had a lot on his plate - I'm sure he hasnt gotten the chance to rest or play the game that much. Long live Yoshida~ :D
I'd love to work for SE, I think a lot of people would lol.
(about making me understand)
I can understand what you are saying. I would like to say the system doesnt need to be changed - when I first thought about this I thought of ways that would fix the system without changing it and without making it look like a patchjob. However there are many things that cannot be changed without entirely redesigning it. And if you are going to redesigin it might as well make it fun and fix some other things on the way - like materia feeling like cheap knockoffs of the original.
When you are not grinding to next level crafts are fun - you can find many people here with crafts 50 and main classes not - there are also many aspects to crafting that come with being good at it like the sense of pride, accomplishment and even a tinge of secrecy (How do you make a Astrolabe? dunno seems pretty cool you can do it though). So I can expect some people will be like "dude crafting isnt fun" but some people do, and in another post I wrote in here SE is tweaking the crafting jobs in 2.0 to be faster paced (less grinding - less breaking). Also, people need more things to do... (sounds sad but true) - there needs to be more content to do and discover. Not all of it should have to be combat centric. -
09-12-2012, 05:45 AMZumi
Obviously Yoshi has played Diablo and Wow. All he has to do is copy that gem system. Gear has a set number of sockets crafted and raid gear. Anyone can socket the gems/materia into your own gear. None of this running around trying to find a max level crafter of various crafts just to put materia in your gear. The idea of requiring a crafter to socket gear is too overly complex. Makes it so new players can't have any materia in their gear because obviously they won't have any crafts leveled and when starting out its unlikly that you will know someone to do it. I remember when leveling my first few jobs to 50 i didn't have any materia in gear and people wanted 100-200k to do it, people just starting out don't have that kind of money
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09-12-2012, 05:48 AMShougunPretty much exactly what this suggested system is lol. Except in D3 you have an npc crafter- however in WoW you have a player crafter. Very similar to what I suggested - with only some variances in actual crafting to maintain good economy and bring more jobs together (to work together).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
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09-12-2012, 05:56 AMZumiIf they wanted to keep the breaking of gear in the game to make it so there more gear coming and going, they could give crafters the ability to add sockets to gear. Every socket added past the default amount of sockets has the chance to brake the gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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09-12-2012, 05:58 AMShougunThe difference this would create is a devaluation of materia - as you would no longer break the materia and the gear just the gear - devalued materia would mean less spirit bound parties meaning less money for the crafters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
When removing the RNG (unneeded random frustrations) its easier just to back all the way out of such a breaking % system of gear (while keeping and maintaining the spirit binding system to maintain crafter worth). -
09-27-2012, 08:58 AMOkipuit
Hey gang,
Thank you all for your feedback regarding materia melding/conversion. There are definitely some great suggestions and rest assured that we will be passing them along to the Development Team. I apologize that we cannot go over every point because things are still in development, but I brought along some notes from the dev. team that you may find quite interesting.
Currently, when converting high quality equipment into materia, there are no merits or bonuses for doing so. We would like to change this system and reward the use of HQ equipment in materia conversion in A Realm Reborn.
An example that we can talk about that was suggested by some of you, is we are looking into slightly increasing the rate in which higher tier materia can be created when converting HQ equipment or equipment with materia Melded to it, into materia.
We'll continue to work on improving the system so please let us know what you think! -
09-27-2012, 09:05 AMShougunI like the fact that melded gear can be used as a step up~ Dont expect a response but something to maybe talk back to the devs about is whether the amount of the quality of the materia in the equipment changes anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Okipuit
3 level IV materia vs 1 level IV, something like that. Also there are different tiers within the same level of materia, like a +17 int vs a 15int.
Now I have to update my first page again.. XD - ill shamefully bump myself probably in a day or so. -
09-27-2012, 09:16 AMHiruke
I don't know that I see a lot of point in "slightly increasing" the chances of getting higher tier materia when converting HQ gear because the materia system is pretty terrible as is. Slight adjustments won't save it, and a "slight increase" over "almost no chance of getting anything good" is like increasing a 1% drop rate to a 2% drop rate. Is it technically better? Sure. Will anyone be gladded by it? Doubtful. :(
Honestly I think the problem is the entire system itself.
1) Materia is gained from converting old equips. Sounds okish in theory, but in reality this just means that people will be using "trash gear" to do various tasks. At best, they do this while farming mobs or something. At worst, people show up to your alliance raids in trash gear so they can convert some materia afterward. Maybe if the chances of getting good materia skyrocketed when using gear actual people might use for a fight, we might have something there. But either way, they'd still be "gimping themselves", because no one is going to SB their melded gear, right? The whole system incentivizes using subpar gear. What possible good can come from that?
2) Almost all grade I through III materia is essentially worthless. Period. No one is going to meld stuff while leveling up. They are going to focus on melding "end game" equips. So, nearly every time, converting something is going to produce something useless (wrong type, low grade, whatever).
3) Higher tier grade IV materia may as well not exist. For example, you have STR at 16, 17, 18, and 20 (or whatever). Almost every x2/x3 meld is going to be using mostly 16s and 17s, because the cost of using 20s (unless you sink a RIDICULOUS amount of time converting it all yourself) is so prohibitively expensive it's hard to put into words. Sure, technically you could have some sick STR gloves that are +100 STR, but the reality is that would probably bankrupt someone who had capped gil. Why even make something like this possible? Once achieved (after an infinity of heartache), the items in question are now severely unbalanced.
At least with crafting, there is some luck involved, but it still feels like you are doing something to produce a better result. If materia melding was more like traditional crafting, with a mini-game instead of a straight lottery, it might be better. Why not lower the potency of materia, make it a crafting mini-game, and instead of breaking EVERYTHING when you fail, you only break the most recent materia? I can only imagine it's all or nothing right now to "balance" against people making those fabled +100 STR gloves. But if you max it out at like +50 STR, maybe we don't need to smash everything when we fail, eh?
If we're to keep the same system, I'd really like to see the above paragraph become the new system and/or take away "tiers", and make it way more likely for higher level items to produce higher grade materia. Or I'd like to see materia produced in some other completely different manner. Like maybe every time you earn X number of xp, you can produce a materia (not that I think that's a good idea, just an example of something different than wandering around in subpar gear grinding out SB for no particular reason). -
09-27-2012, 09:18 AMJynx
Please don't nerf the difficulty of melding materia (RNG) It's pretty much the only damn thing you can do in the game when you are finished all the instanced content.
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09-27-2012, 09:27 AMShougunCan you read my first page and suggest something? I feel like we are running on a similar page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruke
small comments on your post, the numbers relate to yours ^_^:
1) The system is used to keep crafters an income, incentivising crafting (also is a great gilsink for the game in general), and is a time sink - money and time sinks in MMO's are required. This particular one is fairly obvious.. but it does work, crafters can make decent money off of some SB gear.
2) You can meld a bunch of threes easier then fours, they are also a good capper to a double meld. That being said, ones and twos are certainly useless. If they took a suggestion like mine by making each level harder to obtain, and by also making them carry on with you and work into the next tier, then lower tiers would then be more useful.
3) Indeed, I've seen some +50 intelligence hats. One of the things I, and many others have suggested, is a socket limit - this will create a predictable balance to materia and items.
Also mentioned somewhere in here is the fact that their materia system will cause later expansions to release items with 100+ stat items, which people dont want to see (like it is in WoW).
I've got to update my main page, but if I started now I might get too distracted to go back to reading my Mandarin homework lol. So.. later I will :P -
09-27-2012, 09:30 AMAmyNeudaizThis is awesome! I'll be sure to save my HQ mats for ARR ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Okipuit
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09-27-2012, 09:47 AMNakiamiieJust a quick reminder, we are moving to ARR pretty quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
You should have tons of content to tackle rather than artificially get yourself busy (and entertained... that's not entertaining) with RNG.
As for the topic of materia with HQ gear, I think it should automatically gives the highest possible materia for it (tier 1,2,3 or 4 depending on the optimal level -- then randomly pick a type of materia as usual). -
09-27-2012, 09:51 AMShougunYou can make things difficult without using RNG - I hope thats what SE is aiming for in 2.0 . The RNG is really annoying, has no respect for hard work or skill - just about rolling dice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
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09-27-2012, 10:32 AMSmokeyTheSequelThank you for the update!Quote:
Originally Posted by Okipuit
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09-27-2012, 11:27 AMCoombahNeed to better than slightly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Okipuit
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09-27-2012, 11:35 AMDuuude007
I had an idea in line for this:
NQ Lvl 45+ weapon would give good odds at a grade 4 materia
HQ Lvl 45+ weapon would give great odds at a grade 4 materia
Weapon with Grade 3 materia "hells fist" would significantly improve chances of similar family/color materia being created.
The above effects can stack.
Furthermore, I believe the following should be allowed:
Spiritbonding a Sarrnga (for example) could guarantee a heaven's eye 4, which can be bound to a future Sarnga. -
09-27-2012, 12:09 PMJynxIn a MMO without any RNG you would finish it fairly quick and be sitting around moaning about how there is nothing left to do/get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
materia has a nice low barier of entry and ramps up as the rewards "Ammount of stats you get from gear" ramp up. I don't see what the issue with this is considering you only need single meld if that to even do any of the content the game has to offer. It's a nice way for people to spend time and actually look forward to having something to do other than idle around town. In the age of "Give it to me now" you need some sort of long term goals in the game and materia is pretty much the only one we have right now. -
09-27-2012, 12:25 PMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
No you would not. RNG creates averages. Instead you can force the average through things like 100% tokens/costs - though you can make less obvious methods as well. (Keeping in mind with statistics % chance has an average but it also creates people who have done the run 100+ times with 1 weapon rewarded, and others who did it exactly 7 times and got every weapon. RNG is bad, it is not a good system for rewarding effort, and skill.)
You do not, I repeat, do not need RNG for anything.
Or like I've suggested in other threads having a progressive RNG woud work as well (for those that must have % chance). Every failed attempt exponentially increases the % and every sucess decreases the %. This keeps things unpredictable but yet at the same time, strangely predictable. (Creating a precise range of attempts required rather then a system that would say - you need to do this 20 times to get one garuda weapon from X totems).
And materia has a high barrier of entry. Even if you find a level 1 materia you cant use it till you find someone who has done the materia quest and till you have a catalyst. -
09-27-2012, 12:27 PMLum
RNG sucks. Give me a luck stat or get rid of the RNG. Make it a difficult task not a lucky task.
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09-27-2012, 01:20 PMAion
what is the plan for status resist materia? CMIIW, but they serve no purpose currently, and also we need more freedom on utilizing materia....also introduce damage modifier based on enemy type, added elemental/debuff effect, command/ability materia,etc
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09-27-2012, 01:36 PMMeta
I would not be surprised if they are withholding information to prevent a crash or standstill in the materia market. For all we know, RNG for melds could be dead when ARR launches.
If not, eh. At least they're aware that it is not a perfect system and they are actually using some of our suggestions. -
09-27-2012, 01:39 PMShougunThat is a beyond excellent point, especially since what has recently already been happened from player reactions to the redenomination of gil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta
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09-27-2012, 02:18 PMKsenia
I've never in any game on any forum seen anyone complain about level capping in 3 months.
I've never in any game on any forum seen anyone complain about gear capping in 3 more.
I have seen loads of complaints about people having to slog through the same 5 point end game content a billion times to beat an over kill RnG system. Leaving you with a lot of complete and absolute junk in the wake of your goal. Every MMO out there ends in RnG gear grind and it lasts all of a year before they go F2P. Materia or crafting, you don't need it in this game. The outcome is written in stone. -
09-27-2012, 03:12 PMValmonte
i would rather melding success be left to player skill than to chance. a mini game perhaps where each tier of materia and each socket level increases in melding difficulty.
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09-27-2012, 03:19 PMShougunHave to include other features to keep from materia flooding the market - but thats what the suggested idea on page one is trying to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmonte
Check it out :D. Since I'll be editing it again soon - more suggestions will be good.