On "Hardcore"

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

hamlet is one thing, I can be wrong , but I think this thread is geared more twards current dungeons and bosses regaurding the timed runs and "speed run" concepts. All it takes to learn how to do a speed run is ALOT of time to spam it till your group memorizes every nook and cranny in that dungeon / boss fight and then it becomes a game of spaming somthing till your dead bored of it

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Honestly its geared towards wherever ppl want to take it. I, personally, was thinking more of dungeons/bosses sort of thing. But I want to know what everyone else thinks/sees when that word "hardcore" gets thrown around. And this thread is an indication that not everyone is talking about the same thing, which is interesting in and of itself. Generation gap? Maybe.

But since we're going there, is there anything hardcore about hamlet? What about getting top 3 prov regularly for seals? I'm just curious lol.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I completely agree with OP, I remember this video of a GLA soloing a lvl 99 oger , long before we had jobss that was the closest thing to real skill I ever saw on this game. Key word "skill" . Now tanks are mesured by how much enmity they can hold and not by the only thing that justifies their conception, survivabilty. Anymore a tank relys on the healers to stay alive and they justify this because they can get their speed runs. can you take your best job and solo a lvl 75 mob? NO? but you can run a 17 minute av? Is that what 'lete" is these days? if soo I for one dont want to be in that group. throw away my personal life to satisfy a incorrect definition of what should be skill in this game? no thanks

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http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...LEL-uxeAGU.jpg

No, we don't have a video...and yes, we were a full party of people (sorry you can only see 3 of us). But it was actually easier pre-jobs and class nerfs to take on the rank 90+stuff (we killed a 99 gobbie too). Stigian Spikes for the WIN :). ...just to clarify, the people who were in the party, do not consider themselves hardcore, this was a 'for poops and giggles because what else is their to do run.'

Point is, the game changed. Yes, it took skill for a GLA to solo a 99 mob back then, no doubt. But it also took a lot of time, because they didn't just use GLA skills to do it, they used CNJ,THM,MRD skills for sure, and probably, PGL and LNC too...so basically, they were an army of one...literally. One of the main issues back then was people who had the time to invest in leveling (and back in the day, it did not rain exp like it does now), had the 'hardcore' character because you basically needed to level 4+ classes to cap to be considered effective. So yeah, even back then more time=better chance of being hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Zozor

Can I have a link to the video of the gladiator soloing a level 99 ogre long before we had jobs?

Tanks have relied on healers for a long time in many games. If they didn't, why would we need healers?

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Pretty sure he's talking about a video by a JP known as Roi Beoulve. It appears (at least on my phone) that he's taken the videos down. IRC was actually about a level 80ish Ogre and the video was simply a demonstration of how exploitable the game mechanics were with the Armory system pre-class reforms.

Edit: nvm, found the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j82YZnN4j9U

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

A majority of this community confuses hardcore with masochistic.

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Yep, a lot of this community confuse anything non-casual with masochism.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

But since we're going there, is there anything hardcore about hamlet? What about getting top 3 prov regularly for seals? I'm just curious lol.

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Getting top 3 can simply mean you have more money than everyone else and can simply buy the turn-ins.

Being everyone else that isn't top 3 and spamming hamlet for 8 hours at a time, that could be considered "hardcore" by my definition of running content for long stretches of time.

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Originally Posted by Valmonte

who would you invite first given that you just met them and no nothing about them?
a lucky ass casual player that's got full Dark Light and a moogle weapon or a shitty lucked hardcore striver who cant even get a decent double on his cobalt gear with out it blowing up? you see somewhere along the line its no longer about skill but about shear luck and who's got the gear to offset there skills as a player.

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I'd take whichever one is the better player, provided I had knowledge of which one it was. If the guy with cruddy gear and shitty luck actually knows what he's doing, you bet your ass I'd take him over the guy who was lucky and stumbled upon great gear that he'll have no idea how to use.

People often times forget that FFXI/XIV are not games where effort = reward. Instead luck = reward, so good players can easily get shafted by the RNG while those who are totally clueless will breeze right through content and get nice gear.

it not that hard to make 30million in this game, just gotta work hard to getting that money. spirtbond and grind leves make you that money, but not all relic are that pricey, atleast in my server it isnt highes i seem is about 28million but some i see at 8million. Either way 30million or not it still hard work, if it was 1gil what kind of work is that

Hardcore literally means to be completely dedicated to something. It has nothing to do with skill. That's why people on these forums are always in a fight. They seem to think Elite and Hardcore are the same thing. They are not.

Elite means to be the best of the best. Elite players are the ones who can take on any fight and win, no matter how difficult the Devs make it. Elite players are the ones who beat Raven Hard Mode in less than a week. These players are undeniably the best at the game. Anyone who tries to deny them this is just jealous or hating for the sake of hating.

Hardcore means you are 100% dedicated to the game. You play all the time and never want to run out of content. People who complete all relics and all achievements and all quests. These are the Hardcore. They are not the ones who tackle all the most difficult content the fastest, but they will not stop playing this game regardless of what other people tell them. They will not submit to allowing Casual players getting the same rewards without the effort. Hardcore players are the ones who complain about things going into easymode.

Elite does not Equal Hardcore and Hardcore does not Equal elite. Yes, there is significant cross-over. Most Elite players are Hardcore players. Very few Hardcore players are Elite.

I remember when it was called being 'a fan' of the game and not 'hardcore' or 'casual'

Everyone is here to play the game in their own way; isn't that what an MMORPG is all about!?

This game sucks.

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Originally Posted by Rollan

This game sucks.

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That is quite unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by Helius

I think it has more to do with the gaming industry changing. Since so many people are starting to play video games, a company needs to design their games to cater to everyone, especially the more casual gamers which would encompass the majority (or at least a very significant portion) of their player base.
If the game was designed as you said, with ridiculously overpowered bosses, complicated systems, etc. The players who aren't as dedicated to the game would be no chance to ever experience that content, and knowing the nature of people, they would complain about it, and state that it isn't fair, which would lead to a lot of people quitting the game.
That's just how I see it at least.

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I agree with this. So many times I've heard "I pay too so I have the right to have a chance to do everything so it should be nerfed so I can do it". Developers solution is: Make stuff fairly easy, but make sure they take time to complete.

I'm by no means a hardcore gamer saying that finding people with same time schedule and can work around real life stuff like work etc that the challenge for casual player's like me. But if your lucky enough to find people like that you can accomplish allot of content over a period of time with setting date's to do it like on weekend events with them. The difference between us is really only the time we both can put into the game casual players just take longer to get to the same point as the hardcore gamer that doesn't always mean we are not as good as hardcore we just can't put that much time needed to reach the point were hardcore gamer are at.

Feel like i'm waltzing into a minefield..

I'm not very young anymore. So i've seen Hardcore change meaning over time much as the OP outlined.

When used to describe a Game it was used to describe a high risk high reward style of gameplay. A current example would be EVE-Online. Where a loss means ship gone. and not keeping a clone updated meant skill loss on your escape pod going boom (Skills gained over RL time)

It morphed some to describe players, People who were well prepared, skilled, focused and equipped and also had great knowlage of what they were doing. And generally kicked ass.

Now its used to describe amount of time spent. However for some reason if someone spends alot of time, but isn't "Awesome" in some way they are not hardcore.

Either way i'm not a big fan of the current "definition" of hardcore floating around. When i hear hardcore i almost hear nothing because i find its current meaning says nothing to me. Skill is skill, In eve-online, we had a Corp (LS/Guild) mate who had at most 2 hours a day to play. and was still one of the best pilots i knew. Prepared, skilled, sharp. "Hardcore" Interceptor pilot.

More time means more practice, which is definately helpfull, But it doesn't equate to skill or difficulty exclusively.

Also, I'd like to comment about life and gaming. Just because a person can play alot, does NOT mean they lack a life, nor does someone who can't play alot mean they can't be skilled, or put the effort in. In my opinion when adding either claim to a post shows a level of ignorance. If it takes someone a year to finish with limited time what others did in a month, still shows effort. And the person who could do it in a month doesn't mean they lack anything else in life.

Since this discussion usually includes such blanket statements i thought i should put my thoughts about it. Because its this type of comment i find exceedingly rude.

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Originally Posted by indira

I'll take Fun content over hardcore or casual.

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I just really liked this comment... ^^

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

From what I understood, hardcore was about risk and difficulty. I remember game modes where if your character died, that was it, you had to reroll. I remember systems that seemed so complicated (D&D says hi, for me anyway) that you actually had to be smart in order to do well. And then there were bosses that were so stupidly overpowered, you had to be extremely proficient to actually win. More or less, this is my image of hardcore as I recall it. A place where few would bother treading, and fewer would have anything to show for it.


But somewhere along the way I keep hearing about other things being hardcore, that don't quite fit what I remember. Things like low-drop rate content, super rare items, lottery type gear upgrades...etc etc. But for me, as a player, anyone can achieve those things with luck. Heck anyone can achieve those things with time. So, honestly, can it really be called hardcore? Like I said, hardcore as I remember it filtered out a lot of ppl. It was never a question of luck and time, although they did play a factor in your survival/accomplishments. From what I read and heard, it was flat-out survival of the fittest. You were either good enough/smart enough to do it, or you weren't.


So with that said am I crazy? And if not, is that the kinda hardcore content ppl are looking for? Or are they looking for time-sinks? Or are time-sinks and hardcore synonymous, and I just never understood the whole hardcore thing?

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This sounds kinda like good ol' CoP. You know, pre insane nerf. I liked that. It was hard and could've been frustrating at times, but I really liked that. It made it feel oh so sweet when I finally finished it.

This is the kind of hardcore content that I wanna see.

I wish someday, somewhere around this vast sea of horrible drop rates or insta-gratification games, we can find something like CoP again.

Nowadays "Hardcore gaming" is seen by mindless grinding and repetition by a lot of players, which is fact isn't, that's just pure "fake difficulty".

Time consuming =/= hard. It's just boring.

Being hardcore it's more about the risks of failing than the time.

Hopefully SE will get past the low drop rate way in 2.0 adnd have it as soemthing to work for but not be dragged out. Rather then completly hardcore, and more of a challenging casual blend.

XI had some aspects that simply took to long for those gamers who work full time jobs and have busy lives.

THings may take time to work at but shouldn't be unreachable.

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

You sir seem a bit Butthurt ? Did i strike a never ? And as it was already mentioned in the post above yours, there is no correlation between being hardcore and being skillful at a game, the two are not mutually exclusive to one another, one can be hardcore and have absolutly 0 skills as far as downing bosses, positioning, and truly being a skillful as far as combat.

Here is a question: "You got a random boss, that drops BIS weapons, and has no pop timer, you can run him until you go blue in the face, but he has a 1% of dropping the weapons, who will get them first ? The casual player who can spend 8-10 hours a week, or the hardcore player who plays 8-12 hours a day ?

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sorry but not everyone shares the same view on what hardcore means, that is exactly why this thread was made, some think it means time played others think it means dedication and skill, i personally have always lumped it in with dedication and skill. In fact I think that was the original meaning and it has since started adopting time played by the masses of baddies out there.

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Originally Posted by Sasagawa

Hardcore means both time sink and the ability to fell the hardest bosses in the game

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Agreed. It also means that people actually plan and structure what they do in game. Just because they have a lot of time doesn't mean they want to waste it. Hardcore people know the quickest way to do X and the most efficient way to complete Y. Hardcore people are the ones who complete content quickly not because they have the most time to spend on game necessarily, but because they always plan to be ahead of the curve content wise. They're always working on their gear, their gil, and their stats. When the new content comes out, they've already got their group together, they go out and kill it and go back to making sure they're OP'ed for the next round.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

If it can be done quickly, how complicated can it really be?

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Exactly!

Lets break this down.

We can all agree that skill in a RPG boils down to ones knowledge and understanding of the games mechanics. Gearing your chr is 80% luck and 20% knowing how to gear your jobs for optimal performance, wich gose back to understanding the game mechanics. NOTHING I mentioned above is needed to complete speed runs.

Speed runs equate to /spam mode on any content untill that content becomes soo familiar it is simplistic and memorized. Knowing how to cut corners and when/where to be and when/what to do is not skill related at all. Example, dogs can be trained to , without a signal or stop watch, let a person know when its time for them to take there medicine. It boils down to memory and knowing key actions that you identify as signals to act a certain way, all this is simple training, nothing more.

Everyone who claims to be hard core because they have a million speed runs is ignoring one major fact, casuals get speed runs too, if it were hard core content, casuals in AF gear would not be able to achive it. Usually the only content that can truly be dubed as "hard core" is PvP . As the situations are never the same, the enemy is always learning and has as many variables as you.

lets not talk down to people who have logged half the hours as us and have acomplished 3/4 of the content we have, if they were given the same time to play , Im positive they would be caught up if not surpass us. memorizing content dose NOT = skill. its that simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j82YZnN4j9U (SKILL) VS (SPEED RUNS) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJl18zFGWDM


the fundamental differances are simple. One requires complete understanding and knowledge of the current game and the other requires alot of time to dedicate to memorize a dungeon. Some how we confused epic gear builds and endless time to spam content with skill in this game. Back when the skill video was made, we had broken gear, broken stats and broken skills. It was a culmination of knowing what to use, when to use it and how each ability effected the class , that made taking that oger down. In the speed run video, there was great cordination and team work, moderate knowledge of jobs but no real skill was obvious in that video simply because no real skill was needed.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j82YZnN4j9U (SKILL) VS (SPEED RUNS) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJl18zFGWDM


the fundamental differances are simple. One requires complete understanding and knowledge of the current game and the other requires alot of time to dedicate to memorize a dungeon. Some how we confused epic gear builds and endless time to spam content with skill in this game. Back when the skill video was made, we had broken gear, broken stats and broken skills. It was a culmination of knowing what to use, when to use it and how each ability effected the class , that made taking that oger down. In the speed run video, there was great cordination and team work, moderate knowledge of jobs but no real skill was obvious in that video simply because no real skill was needed.

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Thats not skill thats having all classes at lvl 50 lol

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Originally Posted by Tatsuguy

Thats not skill thats having all classes at lvl 50 lol

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He can't even beat the dungeons much less get a speed run, just let him talk and ignore him. A casual blind dog can be trained to do speed runs but that danged old miser is just too much for him.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Elite means to be the best of the best. Elite players are the ones who can take on any fight and win, no matter how difficult the Devs make it. Elite players are the ones who beat Raven Hard Mode in less than a week. These players are undeniably the best at the game. Anyone who tries to deny them this is just jealous or hating for the sake of hating.

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Hi.................

hay guize. wutz goin on in dis thred??

http://i.imgur.com/VZ5pS.jpg

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Originally Posted by fusional

hay guize. wutz goin on in dis thred??

http://i.imgur.com/VZ5pS.jpg

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:o
http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.c...bout.png?w=720
..............

Honestly this thread turned out a lot better than I thought it would. Thought for sure it'd end in flames and trolling...awesome.

to me hardcore has always been about striving to be the best. for example: new content comes out and the hardcore players are the ones running the content first day, parsing runs, tweaking parties, and striving to beat the content first. to me the hardcore players are the ones that do the trial and error runs and are willing to work towards completing hard content. they like the challenge and always are looking for the next challenging encounter to attempt and defeat.

i don't think that doing the same content over and over like hamlets are anything near hardcore. it's just a long boring grind doing the same boring thing over and over.

in other words the groups fighting to be the first to beat ifrit, moogle, garuda, av, cc, and darkhold are the hardcore players. the ones just running those contents over and over after videos have been released showing them every step isn't.

i look at hardcore as striving to get difficult content done faster or first, but i don't consider someone running hamlets for 12 hours a day hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Tatsuguy

Thats not skill thats having all classes at lvl 50 lol

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your right having all classes to 50 is NOT skill, what is skill is knowing how to use what you have, even with imporved gear and better abilities, and the fixing of most stats, can you do what that taru did? I seriously doubt it, not that I doubt your skill , but because the lvl of skill it takes to solo a lvl 80 oger , even now, is great. We have better gear options and stronger weapon skills and abilities, but reguardless, that fight is a hard one.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

your right having all classes to 50 is NOT skill, what is skill is knowing how to use what you have, even with imporved gear and better abilities, and the fixing of most stats, can you do what that taru did? I seriously doubt it, not that I doubt your skill , but because the lvl of skill it takes to solo a lvl 80 oger , even now, is great. We have better gear options and stronger weapon skills and abilities, but reguardless, that fight is a hard one.

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No because i didnt have all R50 classes when THM had an over powered OP spell. trust me i could have done that shit if i had all my classes lvld but that was the problem back then the game sucked ass and i didnt want to spend all day every day lvling up lol i started playing way to late to get all 50's when they were unbalanced.

Lol if you think its possible to kill a lvl 80 ogre now i challenge you. Cant use doh/dol cause thats cheating lol

hmm, you know what, challange accepted. Just gota find a LVL 80 mob that dosent spawn around other mobs that could possably link lol. Seriously tho, you make a fair pont, THM did have an ability that was op, only problem to your conclusion is that , its unconclusive as the job used was PLD and he did not have the ability that reverted the ogres elemental status to nutural, much less did he nuke heavly in that fight. But none the less, I find your proposel intresting at least, would like to see how I would stand up against somthing of that nature. stay tuned..

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

hmm, you know what, challange accepted. Just gota find a LVL 80 mob that dosent spawn around other mobs that could possably link lol. Seriously tho, you make a fair pont, THM did have an ability that was op, only problem to your conclusion is that , its unconclusive as the job used was PLD and he did not have the ability that reverted the ogres elemental status to nutural, much less did he nuke heavly in that fight. But none the less, I find your proposel intresting at least, would like to see how I would stand up against somthing of that nature. stay tuned..

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Yes he did recheck plz lmao, he even still has physical level.

its on his 2nd bar all the way right. can check at the start of video :p

edit: nvm i think i mistake it for punishing barbs ;/

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Originally Posted by Tatsuguy

No because i didnt have all R50 classes when THM had an over powered OP spell. trust me i could have done that shit if i had all my classes lvld but that was the problem back then the game sucked ass and i didnt want to spend all day every day lvling up lol i started playing way to late to get all 50's when they were unbalanced.

Lol if you think its possible to kill a lvl 80 ogre now i challenge you. Cant use doh/dol cause thats cheating lol

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that's a quite large assumption on your part. i know of many thm's that had the same skills and abilities as i had and couldn't complete the fight. don't act like by having that skill that it was an auto win fight. it was still quite difficult and you could very easily wipe if you made one mistake. i can promise you i saw so many people die trying the different fights solo, but no matter what you may think it wasn't as easy as some made it look.

yes, if you played the fight properly you would win, but you had to know your strengths and weaknesses and make sure not to make a mistake.