Trust System is ruining our game

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Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

It's kinda funny, that both DD and Aurum were always on the very top of the most disliked dungeons. And yet now people bemoan the changes.

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Just because we hated those dungeons doesn't mean we wanted them taken out back and shot (then put through the shredder in Aurum Vale's case), they're going from the most hated dungeons to the most forgotten dungeons, these are all round bad changes.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Just because they want to slap a title on something does not mean that it is not just silly busywork. And that is not, actually, as mmo as it gets since being able to run dungeons and grind up levels with ai characters that are so bad that it directly effects how content is designed just so you do not have to play with others is actually the antithesis of an mmo.

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With that logic this entire game is busywork because you work for titles and such things.
Gatherers or squadrons would then also have to begone because you don't interact with others.
Even solo players in old MMO's would be an antithesis to it.
The entire point of an MMO is that everyone can find something to do, no matter their preferences, be it battle content, crafting or yes, even solo leveling of npc's.

I am not here to talk semantics at what point something damages the game or not. My point was entirely at you suggesting to skip the leveling process of trusts.
Trusts are optional to the duty support. You don't care for leveling them then don't do it.
You can even think they are damaging the game, I don't care but don't go around asking for an optional feature to be removed just because you don't like it because I DO like leveling them up slowly.

Edit:
And before anyone comes at me, yes I also think the changes to those two dungeons where unneeded even if I didn't find them any fun beforehand.

With that I'm out, Ta-ta.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Just because we hated those dungeons doesn't mean we wanted them taken out back and shot (then put through the shredder in Aurum Vale's case), they're going from the most hated dungeons to the most forgotten dungeons, these are all round bad changes.

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So what is your suggestion? If we got Aurum people complained, if we got Dzemael people groaned? Original = bad. Change = also bad. Genuinely no matter what you'd have complained so like?

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Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

It's kinda funny, that both DD and Aurum were always on the very top of the most disliked dungeons. And yet now people bemoan the changes.
Also, both were perfectly doable with Squadrons, and that AI is probably more wonky than Trusts.

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OP's main goal in life is to create posts, often about how much he hates FFXIV, on the official paid forums and other social media. The majority of his posts are just low-hanging bait and recycled complaints he's held for years now but refused to quit apart from attracting attention for himself.

I didn't hate those dungeons... They were way better than any post 50 dungeon. That our jobs were boring inside was another problem, they used to be more interesting when we had most of our kit at lvl45+ and didn't powercreep everything to death.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

So what is your suggestion? If we got Aurum people complained, if we got Dzemael people groaned? Original = bad. Change = also bad. Genuinely no matter what you'd have complained so like?

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In the case of Aurum Vale it's a little hard to win because Morbols exist and will continue to exist. In principle though I might have spaced out the monsters a bit more in the first room so it's harder to accidentally aggro them, I might also have leaned more into the lore and the way other plant monsters in the game attack by giving the first boss one of those cloud aoes that gives a goldlung stack instead of the typical poison. I would also like to make the last room have a fixed DoT effect just for being in it, it is really deep and the lore does say "the noisome fumes given off by the foul ooze cooked their lungs when inhaled" I think the third boss most of all should have leaned into the lore and goldbile more than any other, actually using the goldbile puddles in it's room as weapons. It might also be neat to expand on that boss' spawn mechanic to bring in actual morbol sprouts in a similar vein to the Arboretum fight to make life a bit more interesting.

In Darkhold, I think removing the crystal buffs was the biggest mistake they could have made, I don't necessarily disagree with opening the doors though - those were a point of friction between new and old players. For fist boss they could have looked to WoD first boss for some inspiration, really leveraging the eye mechanics. Make "Eyes on Me" a massive raidwide you NEED to stand in crystal light to survive and open a couple of void portals that spew adds just to keep life interesting. For second boss I'd look to Meso Terminal for ideas: A group fight, not one where the party is separated into four concurrent fights but where the brothers fight together with synergistic abilities maybe include a sequence where one covers another charging a big attack and the other two cast aoes to keep the party busy, done right that could also cause wipes now and then. Third boss I feel should have at least one void portal spawning adds - The whole point of the dungeon is a voidsent infestation, they had to come from somewhere, it only makes sense to make the last boss a fight against the source of that infestation. Batraal himself might come and go from the portal creating 'phases' in the fight until you can defeat him and destroy the portal.

I'd also adjust Darkhold's pulls to use more voidsent than generic wildlife, removing the annoying frog enemies everyone hates.

Why do we still have dungeons at this point? Remove non-MSQ dungeons, replace the MSQ ones with a teleport to the post-final boss cutscene if it's relevant, and turn the XP/tomestones into a login reward.

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Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

It's kinda funny, that both DD and Aurum were always on the very top of the most disliked dungeons. And yet now people bemoan the changes.
Also, both were perfectly doable with Squadrons, and that AI is probably more wonky than Trusts.

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I'm not people, I"m just one poster.
And I've always enjoyed DD and AV. Even in 1.0 when there were much "worse" (better).

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Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

It's kinda funny, that both DD and Aurum were always on the very top of the most disliked dungeons. And yet now people bemoan the changes.
Also, both were perfectly doable with Squadrons, and that AI is probably more wonky than Trusts.

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My personal favorite are the people who whined about the changes to Cutter's Cry because now it WON'T let you skip 1/3 of the entire dungeon, or how Halitali still makes you do the chains.

How bizarre, I thought people HATED when Square-Enix "dumbed down" dungeons to make them quicker, yet it seems those two complaints have to do with how keeping the chains/forcing you to fight the mobs means the dungeons take longer to complete.

I get the impression that some of these people won't be satisfied until every dungeon is just one long mega-pull to the final boss (even dragging the first and second boss along) because time is everything to them, and if they can't speedrun a piece of content while spamming AOEs into a large crowd of mobs as they race to empty the enemy's HP bar before their own gives out, the content is "brain dead" or "baby mode".

Even they don't want dungeons in their MMO, they want a musou mode ...which might explain why some of them also glaze Field Operations so much (especially Eureka). No walls, trash collection, tons of twirling, and all while being wailed on from all sides.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

You're complaining they changed an ARR dungeon that you ran maybe once a month? If even that?

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I get this "Dzemael Darkhold" dungeon three times a week in the leveling roulette!


Cheers

The trust system is needed because the MSQ is too long now. Roulettes help with it, but it's not like they added more roulettes...

The issue is with not designing a system that could work with the content as-is, but needing to remake content for it.
There's also issues with like, leveling the trust system? Why is this even a thing... trusts is something you need sometimes and you're only going to level it if you needed it all the time.
Also there's still so many duties that are mandatory, such as trials which no trust support. So why they are putting some optional ARR dunegons that you only ever do when leveling an alternate job above mandatory content for progression is truly strange.

It could use work!

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Originally Posted by SalamanderIX

The trust system is needed because the MSQ is too long now. Roulettes help with it, but it's not like they added more roulettes...

The issue is with not designing a system that could work with the content as-is, but needing to remake content for it.
There's also issues with like, leveling the trust system? Why is this even a thing... trusts is something you need sometimes and you're only going to level it if you needed it all the time.
Also there's still so many duties that are mandatory, such as trials which no trust support. So why they are putting some optional ARR dunegons that you only ever do when leveling an alternate job above mandatory content for progression is truly strange.

It could use work!

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That's what I was saying before. Make NPC versions of MSQ Trials and Crystal Tower, but DON'T TOUCH the original versions in the roulettes. There's multiple reasons to ensure that someone can get through the MSQ without issue due to the mandatory fights, but that shouldn't come at the expense of changing the fights that were designed with human players in mind.

I will say that I don't understand why the Trust system exists though... there's less NPC variety, the storyline doesn't change no matter who comes along, there's reduced drops (even Duty Support and Squrdrons doesn't reduce them I think), and you have to level Trusts while Duty Support is ready right out of the box. I don't get why there's two systems to do the same thing, yet one of them is made intentionally worse.

The Trust, or GW/XI companion system is not inherently bad.
(XIV just inherently bad at implementing systems).

They did a decent job with this one though. The trust system should have no bearing on dungeon difficulty. Trust should simply be powerful enough to do the content, as opposed to nerfing the content itself.....

The more Duty Support there is, the easier it is for me to tell liabilities that they really do not need to be in a party if they don't wish to cooperate.

I love the trust system and always have since it was released. I enjoy my own company and I just hate the way I am enjoying the MSQ and then I have to be in DF with 7 strangers it just feels really off at times. I did a lot of my raiding a long time ago and most of my friends have left so I tend to solo/duo these days and I love being with the NPC's as I love their interactions.

As for the darkhold being ruined it was ruined when they gutted it from 1.0 and you had a party of eight to beat it and it was tough and I mean tough so we had to lose a lot coming into ARR Aurum vale was so hard and Cutters cry hard but fun and a lot of teamwork so it all got dumbed down anyway.

It would be good if they could come up with a way of doing the MSQ with NPC's and letting others go with others. I like a challenge and a mid core player these days but I feel the MSQ should be accessible for players who need it without them struggling.

You've been playing since 2012 and still don't know the difference between trust and duty support?

But surely you can't think it's a bad idea to give the opportunity for people to run the dungeon by themselves instead of waiting for 30 minutes in queue...

Hot take but the tank being yoinked by Dzemael frogs and bumped down the cliff to die alone surrounded by ravenous enemies never ceased to be hilarious. Sue me.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

My personal favorite are the people who whined about the changes to Cutter's Cry because now it WON'T let you skip 1/3 of the entire dungeon, or how Halitali still makes you do the chains.

How bizarre, I thought people HATED when Square-Enix "dumbed down" dungeons to make them quicker, yet it seems those two complaints have to do with how keeping the chains/forcing you to fight the mobs means the dungeons take longer to complete.

I get the impression that some of these people won't be satisfied until every dungeon is just one long mega-pull to the final boss (even dragging the first and second boss along) because time is everything to them, and if they can't speedrun a piece of content while spamming AOEs into a large crowd of mobs as they race to empty the enemy's HP bar before their own gives out, the content is "brain dead" or "baby mode".

Even they don't want dungeons in their MMO, they want a musou mode ...which might explain why some of them also glaze Field Operations so much (especially Eureka). No walls, trash collection, tons of twirling, and all while being wailed on from all sides.

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Goomba fallacy. We ain't the same people.

I have never complained about fixing what actually needed fixing in older dungeons, like those skippable adds, or the absolute camera nightmare that old Totorak used to be, for example.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Goomba fallacy. We ain't the same people.

I have never complained about fixing what actually needed fixing in older dungeons, like those skippable adds, or the absolute camera nightmare that old Totorak used to be, for example.

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There ain't no goddamn goombas, I have literally seen the same people complain about contradictory things even if you aren't one of them personally.

It's why it's so hard to take some suggestions seriously around here because someone will beg and whine for something, receive it in full, and then whine even harder about the change they literally begged for. Which then just spirals into the usual arguments about who Square-Enix should and shouldn't be listening to, or what should and shouldn't change, because nobody can ever agree on anything and if a change DOES occur, a bunch of people flood in to complain about said change no matter what it is.

There is literally nothing that makes everyone happy, and its an endless feud around here.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiMiqo

No, it is not. The Trust System was installed to let those who want to run the msq at their own pace and enjoy a more single player experience. Granted, it's not perfect, but it DOES help people understand mechanics in dungeons and let's players get a feel for things. Example, I liked running it in Shadowbringers because I was getting back into Tanking after having stopped doing so for over a year and allowed me to get my confidence back. Again, it's not perfect, but it's helpful, especially with how things have gotten lately with other people trolling or tearing each other down in dungeons

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The trust also enables a fallback in case the game ever goes offline, there would still be the possibility to release a offline version without excess work added to it.

But then that is unlikely unless square goes belly up completely seeing how they still got XI around.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

The trust also enables a fallback in case the game ever goes offline, there would still be the possibility to release a offline version without excess work added to it.

But then that is unlikely unless square goes belly up completely seeing how they still got XI around.

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Well, in the case of Final Fantasy 11, the NPCs were added because the playerbase had become small enough and fractured enough between worlds that it was becoming almost impossible to make any kind of MSQ progress because you needed other players that didn't exist or you would get stuck because barely anything could be soloed over there unless you were a Beastmaster (which incidentally, we'll be getting ourselves here soon).

Final Fantasy 14 hasn't reached those critical levels of players, but the framework is still there if Sqaure-Enix has to go all in on Mass Trusts for every piece of content. It's even possible why they make all fights into strict memory games and roles are simplified in their execution; They're future-proofing for when there's no longer enough players to run said content and they flick on the NPC option across everything. It's also possible depending on how our version of Beastmaster works, it could be solo-friendly in that it provides its own NPCs by literally bringing a herd of creatures into even 8-man/24-man content where they play their roles like the tamed AI they are, you just have to watch out for yourself. (And even then, they've been adding the Willful Buff to more stuff.)

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think that plenty of the changes had nothing to do with Duty Support, but rather them just wanting to "modernize" the dungeon design.

It may be hard to make NPCs click fruits, but I think they just wanted to abandon that as a concept regardless. The first room in Aurum Vale would have been fine as it was for NPCs, but it was notorious for being problematic so changes were obviously going to happen to it. Patrols would have been fine as they were even with Duty Support, they just probably thought it was annoying for them to sometimes be so far away from you. Duty Support could wait on the blue circles or purple areas in Dzemael, but again, they just wanted to remove them to "modernize" the dungeon.

Duty Support would probably struggle to drag the boss from one purple area to another, but then again, they make them move to specific places for mechanics in recent fights so as long as they make it not RNG, they can make them run to specific locations.

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Yeah none of the original things are necessarily things Trusts couldn't do. But they were somewhat obtuse and dated mechanics that were not seen later. Many of the Duty Support changes have been to bring older dungeons in line with things learned in the new Hall of the Novice.

I loved Dzemael. But I get why it was updated.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

as long as they make it not RNG, they can make them run to specific locations.

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When you are the "Dungeon Master" (tm) and you roll behind a screen, there is not a thing called "RNG".

The map is a chessboard, if {x,y,z} is a don't-stay-here I can make the npc know and move away from {x,y,z} BEFORE {x,y,z} becomes a don't-stay-here, even if {x,y,z} is decided randomly.
Only players don't know what happen behind the curtains and have to make decisions on the fly

It's definitely true that Duty Support AI NPCs are programmed in a very basic manner to solve mechanics. They'll always go to the same spots, even if they have to step on you because you picked the same one. You'll always be the one that has to adjust, else they'll just die with you happily.

Trust and duty support is now largely used by bots and people who 24/7 afk them so they get currency and items to trade at quartermaster and get free gil that ways.

I got Aurum in roulette and I had to laugh a bit at the first boss. You can still eat the fruit and it will clear the debuffs. And when you do, you get a debuff that doesn't let you eat another one by pointing out you don't want to because you just ate morbol fruit.

This is nothing new I've been saying SE has been dumbing down the content for a while now. From dungeons to how you play the Jobs the game has been changed and created for the ADHD folks and forced easy friendly encounters.

ADHD people when taking stray bullets out of nowhere

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Originally Posted by Valence

ADHD people when taking stray bullets out of nowhere

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still trying to work out why that occured. was out of the blue :/

I do think ARR dungeons are getting changed to work with Trust but I also think they wanna bring them up to modern standards. The bosses are generally improved, it's just the inbetween pulls that suck now.

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Originally Posted by Noviside

The bosses are generally improved, it's just the inbetween pulls that suck now.

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That’s literally every dungeon they’ve designed for the past like 3 expansions too lol. 20% effort in boss fights, 79% aesthetics/backdrops, 1% on the inbetween pulls that are always two groups of three enemies spaced slightly apart with a wall to stop people speed running (it did not it just annoyed them).

I mean outside of aesthetics we’ve practically already seen every dungeon they ever have, will, or could make. Ingenuity or variety or player engagement? Pfffft, screw that, just make it look good and make it fasssst *sonic the hedgehog SFX*

Edit: I imagine many will refute the idea that trusts are ‘ruining’ dungeons because criterion/variant exists. ‘If you don’t like dungeons just do criterion where trusts cannot dare to tread’ lol. Like, that’s great, but doesn’t really excuse the current expert roulette dungeons or whatever being complete slop…

The biggest issue was that trust system changes "replaced" rather than added as an option. Really... what they should've done/should do is start off a dungeon with the intent of it being ran with 4p, then remove/change whatever mechanics needed for trusts as an entirely separate form of the same dungeon. So theres the option to run normal with folks or "story mode" with trusts...

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

The biggest issue was that trust system changes "replaced" rather than added as an option. Really... what they should've done/should do is start off a dungeon with the intent of it being ran with 4p, then remove/change whatever mechanics needed for trusts as an entirely separate form of the same dungeon. So theres the option to run normal with folks or "story mode" with trusts...

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I didn’t go into it in my post but I literally had the exact same thought lol. Basically, ‘what if they made trust dungeons separately from normal/roulette dungeons?’. It’s definitely the most logical option, I’d say. But then I worried people would just be like ‘oh but that’s criterion you MORON!’ So it seemed kinda pointless to bring up lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

That’s literally every dungeon they’ve designed for the past like 3 expansions too lol. 20% effort in boss fights, 79% aesthetics/backdrops, 1% on the inbetween pulls that are always two groups of three enemies spaced slightly apart with a wall to stop people speed running (it did not it just annoyed them).

I mean outside of aesthetics we’ve practically already seen every dungeon they ever have, will, or could make. Ingenuity or variety or player engagement? Pfffft, screw that, just make it look good and make it fasssst *sonic the hedgehog SFX*

Edit: I imagine many will refute the idea that trusts are ‘ruining’ dungeons because criterion/variant exists. ‘If you don’t like dungeons just do criterion where trusts cannot dare to tread’ lol. Like, that’s great, but doesn’t really excuse the current expert roulette dungeons or whatever being complete slop…

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Don't forget that the new criterion is removing trash entirely, even though those encounters could be fun and interesting in EW.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Don't forget that the new criterion is removing trash entirely, even though those encounters could be fun and interesting in EW.

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SE would never dare remove the fun parts of their game wouldn't they?

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Originally Posted by Miguel85NYC

They ruined one of my favorite dungeons "Dzemael Darkhold".
The fights were unique and fun.. now its like every other fight..

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We've done it, we've found the one player who likes DD.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

The biggest issue was that trust system changes "replaced" rather than added as an option. Really... what they should've done/should do is start off a dungeon with the intent of it being ran with 4p, then remove/change whatever mechanics needed for trusts as an entirely separate form of the same dungeon. So theres the option to run normal with folks or "story mode" with trusts...

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I would think the reason the "Duty Support" and "Trust" versions don't have major differences is so the MSQ remains an identical baseline for all players of all skill levels and interests.

Marching orders to map-dungeon development in their jira: Retrofit dungeons to work with current version of trusts. We will not be spending more development hours on improving trusts feature.

Just saw the new version of Dzemael Darkhold and my hatred for duty support has reached a new high.

I'm a big fan of trusts but I do feel they have been building/revamping dungeons around them which is a problem. The trust system should be an accessory and option only, we shouldn't be designing content with trusts in mind. You should design the content to be enjoyable and then try to find a way to make trusts work within it without changing the content itself. Anything short of this is just laziness and it hurts the game.

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Originally Posted by Selsix

I'm a big fan of trusts but I do feel they have been building/revamping dungeons around them which is a problem. The trust system should be an accessory and option only, we shouldn't be designing content with trusts in mind. You should design the content to be enjoyable and then try to find a way to make trusts work within it without changing the content itself. Anything short of this is just laziness and it hurts the game.

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It's even sillier when you remember that Trusts (and Squadrons for that matter) have little "quirks" where the NPCs personalities or their own mechanics (like Tactics for Squadrons, or their old skill kits) can already subvert or complicate how a dungeon plays out so its not like anybody using NPCs is getting an "authentic" dungeon experience anyway that can always translate into doing the same dungeon with players (the biggest one being wall-to-walls where NPCs do not rush to grab everything, cue very confused new tanks and healers when they encounter the actual "norm").

So they may as well just make variations of the dungeons strictly for NPCs, or even do something more creative with their versions of the dungeons since they're meant to be slower with an emphasis on guiding/learning.