Can we go back to using tomes to get relics?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

While I’m not saying your opinion of farming is invalid there is the element of the relic has always been farming content

I’m not saying you said “I don’t want to farm for my relic” but the people who do say “I don’t like farming so that’s why I like tomestone relics” are basically saying they are walking into maccas and asking why they don’t serve KFC chicken strips

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I grinded through arr and hw relics, i was expecting anima like experience with SB relic. When it was not i walked away, leaving people who liked that to enjoy.
EW relic was far from satisfying experience, but it was simple so i prefer even that to never ending fate rush.

It sounds like no one likes current relic, so again i havent been interested in it at all. But i dont think that voicing preferences is asking chicken in burger place level of weird in thread which seems to be asking for option i find less bad.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

It sounds like no one likes current relic, so again i havent been interested in it at all. But i dont think that voicing preferences is asking chicken in burger place level of weird in thread which seems to be asking for option i find less bad.

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Current relic's only complaint is the demi-atma step. I would do them again though over whatever the hell they were doing in EW.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That depends greatly on how easily one can collect poetics. I'm lucky I manage a little over a thousand a week from doing Wondrous Tails, Blue Mage challenges, and combat Society quests.

Looking at the Crystal Sand/Umbrite step for my HW relics right now, the variable 4000+ poetics means over a month for a single weapon, and that's after the months for the aether oil and Unidentifiable items before that. There is nothing "free" about any relic weapon demanding thousands of poetics unless someone is raking in 20,000+ a day.
+++



And did anyone find that substantial additional grind fun I wonder? I know I didn't, I would have sooner paid a 9000 tomes than do another book, dear lord.

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When EW was current, the relics materials were not buyable with poetics but with the unlimited level 90 tomes, which you get from doing pretty much any roulette at level 90. You could very easily racked up 500 tomes per day just by doing your daily roulettes that you were gonna do anyway for the limited tomes. Essentially, you could get a relic stage every 3-4 days without going out of your way for it. So yeah, they were a 100% free.

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Originally Posted by Remarus

This is the first time I have ever heard the grind of Relics compared to the effort of clearing Savage. I wouldn't consider them to be even remotely equivalent.

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Bad phrasing on my part, sorry. I mean, obviously everyone's mileage will vary with this so it might not be the same amount of effort but it feels like the way SE sees it is if you want the strongest weapon you can either buckle down and learn harder content and prog to get your weapon, or you can take the easier and potentially slower route of grinding for the relic. Does that make more sense?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It is tomestones.

However, before you get to the tomestone step, you first have to do the traditional relic grind to "earn" your relic. If you don't do that then you didn't earn it. In MMORPGs, you are meant to earn your rewards, otherwise they have no prestige or respect.

The grind is not that bad, really. If you think it's bad, then you should try playing older MMORPGs that make you grind for years to get things, and that's without accounting for eating and sleeping. This is a tiny fraction of that because it's a modern MMORPG.

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I honestly think this method (unique grind of whatever is needed THEN just tomes for additional weapons) is the most balanced out they ever came up with, because it grabs the best of both worlds - well assuming the player isn't completely against RNG based grinds.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I honestly think this method (unique grind of whatever is needed THEN just tomes for additional weapons) is the most balanced out they ever came up with, because it grabs the best of both worlds - well assuming the player isn't completely against RNG based grinds.

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I have to agree. Well if it's up to me I wouldn't want any tomestone on my relic step, but I understand the need to compromise since the amount of jobs is growing. Still, I wish the initial grind is longer and more.. well, unique, than what we got right now. Maybe can balance it by actually lowering the amount of tomestone required for the next weapons.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I literally just took DRK from 90 to 100 only doing FATEs and still needed 4 Demiatma. Currently needing just 3 now.

At least give us an option to buy the materials with Tomestones in addition to the normal way please. Say 200 each or heck even 500 would work for me.

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I had some terrible luck working on one of my characters' Demiatmas too. Took me two days and a half to get the singular Demiatma I was missing, spending tons of time spawning CEs in the zone I needed (sometimes wasting them as the FATE wiped us once, somehow...) so I understand the struggle. I recommend trying out OC since the chances are better there, especially if the Demiatma you're missing is from a zone that is big enough to house multiple CEs and FATEs.

What I think we would benefit more from is being able to trade wrong Demiatmas for the type we need. We get the tomestone step right after, so two of them back to back would just be disappointing...

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm genuinely curious. To all the people that seem to praise or at least defend the current relic steps that aren't tome based, do you find those steps fun and fulfilling to do? Do you have fun while farming fates? Do you find the fate gameplay enthralling or?

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I personally had fun getting the Demiatmas because it was a good excuse to assemble my FC mates, get matching adventurer glams and do a chill activity that doesn't require a lot of brain power for anyone but is fun enough to do while chatting. We explored the map, figured things out as we went and we got our relic by the end of it, over a couple of weeks or so when this content came out. There's also the added bonus that it doesn't feel like you're not getting anything per se, because if you're not getting stuff for your relic you're still leveling up your Phantom Jobs/getting Knowledge.


The roulette step also encouraged me to finish up leveling some of my jobs, so that was also nice. I just wish there was an option to do this step in OC instead (which I believe they're adding in 7.4 if I understood correctly?)


I just like anything that allows me to drag my friends along for an adventure or simply an excuse to hang out, even if the adventure itself is not incredible 11/10 send out the fireworks, etc.
And having options to go about it is what I like as well. Don't like OC? You can do FATEs in the overworld, which also works towards your Shared FATE progress and gives you bicolor gemstones.


In short: Having multiple options to bounce between is good (maybe doing something like roulette items like the ShB memories from leveling roulette + regular FATEs + Field Ops + PvP as options would be best, so we can bounce between different things at will or laser-focus on the option we like best), having activities you can do with friends is good, having a Field Ops area that doesn't make me depressed just looking at it (Bozja...) is also good, being able to slowly progress multiple grinds at once is lovely.

The thing with the EW tomestone relics is, unless you like that particular look (and fair enough, same for all of them but whatever), there is absolutely no value to the EW relics. They are throwaway items. I doubt anyone is going to throw away an ARR, HW, Stb or Shb relic. Just due to the sheer amount of effort and time it takes to invest in obtaining a finished relic weapon. That is what relics should be. Not some fast-food like option.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm genuinely curious. To all the people that seem to praise or at least defend the current relic steps that aren't tome based, do you find those steps fun and fulfilling to do? Do you have fun while farming fates? Do you find the fate gameplay enthralling or?

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Yes. I farmed them in OC, so I can't speak of overworld FATEs grind, but yeah it's better than tomestone. OC CE, while not as fun as bozja, are okay. Having phantom jobs at least made things slightly more interesting.

With tomestone the feeling isn't just there, y'know?

Relics should have some sort of grind associated with them, people that just want them to be tome dumps should stick to crafted EX weapons
They are called relics, not "I did my roulettes for a few days"-ics

It's already like that though. :)
Once you finish the one-time grind of that respective step, future relic can be bought with just tomes!

Yeah, I'm not jazzed about the DT relic implementation, but it's something
I would rather have something actually grindy instead of a timegate, but what can you do

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The problem with the whole “tomestones allow you to do what you want” is that the non roulette non hunt tomestone farming options fall somewhere between heavily suboptimal and outright garbage

You don’t feel like you have a lot of choice, you just feel like you are being pigeonholed into roulettes

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I do agree, I wanted to use CC for this and the tome rewards are way too poor to genuinely progress on all of them. FL are better, but that's still not great.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m not saying you said “I don’t want to farm for my relic” but the people who do say “I don’t like farming so that’s why I like tomestone relics” are basically saying they are walking into maccas and asking why they don’t serve KFC chicken strips

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I'd farm the crap of what I like doing, until I'm bored and go back to it the next day.

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Originally Posted by Selsix

I can't speak for the current relics as I refuse to set foot in OC for reasons that are irrelevant to the topic at hand but I will -readily- state I vastly prefer ShB and SB style relics to every other kind. Eureka was okay (I have criticisms) but I LOVED Bozja. Bozja to me was the perfect relic grind. Do I enjoy FATE grinding though? Honestly that's not something I've ever even really considered. What I enjoy is "mindless" content where I can say, listen to a book on tape/podcast/YT video/stream and just go through the motions with my brain mostly on auto-pilot. For me, this is incredibly relaxing and I enjoy it. FATE grinding falls under this umbrella so I suppose I could say yes I prefer FATE grinding to tomes as a relic step. Could the grind be more fun than FATEs? Sure, but that's beside the point.

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This is funny you mention podcasts. Listening through the whole history of rome podcast is what made me grit my teeth and go through the whole of eureka. The experience was so tedious and boring that without it I would have dropped out after Anemos. In fact, if the weapon hadn't been BiS in Pyros+, I would still have dropped out I think.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

The thing with the EW tomestone relics is, unless you like that particular look (and fair enough, same for all of them but whatever), there is absolutely no value to the EW relics. They are throwaway items. I doubt anyone is going to throw away an ARR, HW, Stb or Shb relic. Just due to the sheer amount of effort and time it takes to invest in obtaining a finished relic weapon. That is what relics should be. Not some fast-food like option.

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I find it extremely puzzling to read that people can attribute any value behind relic weapons (even ARR), but I guess it's just me...

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'd farm the crap of what I like doing, until I'm bored and go back to it the next day.

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If you are enjoying something then why are you also asking for incentives that weren’t originally linked to it to be attached to it

That’s basically my origin of the “maccas vs KFC” analogy, relics have always been grinds, you don’t have to like the relics or like grinding but why go into content that has always been a grind and go “yeah I’d prefer to do this by not actually grinding”

I don't understand that comment. Where did I say that I didn't like grinding? Why do people constantly strawman us into "you don't like the content I like grinding, therefore you don't like grinding" idk

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I literally just took DRK from 90 to 100 only doing FATEs and still needed 4 Demiatma. Currently needing just 3 now.

At least give us an option to buy the materials with Tomestones in addition to the normal way please. Say 200 each or heck even 500 would work for me.

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You don't like this game, you don't wanna play it. It's okay, bro
No one will judge you

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't understand that comment. Where did I say that I didn't like grinding? Why do people constantly strawman us into "you don't like the content I like grinding, therefore you don't like grinding" idk

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If you don't like bozja/OC, fine, but shouldn't you advocate for improvement rather than go "this sucks, let's just make future relic tomestones (like EW)"?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

If you don't like bozja/OC, fine, but shouldn't you advocate for improvement rather than go "this sucks, let's just make future relic tomestones (like EW)"?

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.

I appreciate the irony of it being a strawman argument to an alleged strawman argument.

Classic.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't understand that comment. Where did I say that I didn't like grinding? Why do people constantly strawman us into "you don't like the content I like grinding, therefore you don't like grinding" idk

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Because I’m not talking about Bozja and eureka, I’m talking about grinding in general. The relics have always been a grind but the form of the grind has differed. EW’s relics are NOT a grind. But they are praised as “giving people options” because people apparently need more reasons to run roulettes or do CC they were already doing

If you like doing something then do it for the sake of it. You (general you) shouldn’t need to co-opt relics to generate incentives for content that you supposedly enjoy doing anyway but that’s exactly what the EW relics were, people co-opting relics and removing their grind to generate incentives for content they supposedly already liked doing

If this comment doesn’t apply to you then why did you reply to me initially because that was always my point, it’s like you commented on an unrelated post to your point then when I stuck to the point you replied you you said I was strawmanning

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

When/if I finish the HW relics, it'll be much the same: Find out if the finished relic has any ACTUAL in-game value (even company seals is fine), be rid of them, and just go back for the replicas later.

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As a rule of thumb, the only value previous-expansion relics have is either glamour or the enjoyment you get from the process of obtaining them.

(I'll set aside scenarios like maxed StB relics being BiS in Eureka, and maxed ShB relics being BiS in older ultimates.)

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Originally Posted by Valence

I find it extremely puzzling to read that people can attribute any value behind relic weapons (even ARR), but I guess it's just me...

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It isn't just about the relic itself as an item, it can be the journey you went through to get the weapon that makes it special for that person. Those memories are attached to that weapon, just like any sort of memorabilia you might have in real life.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I find it extremely puzzling to read that people can attribute any value behind relic weapons (even ARR), but I guess it's just me...

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Because you take time in doing them? I'm not sure why you're puzzled about it.

Example: me and one of my friends started playing around patch HW and when we got to the Anima weapons I think it took us months to get the first one. Because we enjoy the fact that we worked hard for them we use them as glamour on those jobs (BLM and PLD) most of the time. Those weapons aren't exactly that difficult to get today (the one step that took me hours sitting in a pf repeating A1S over and over now is 20 or less quick unsynced runs of A9S) but they still mean something to ME.

You can pretty much say that about any reward in this game. Most of them get easier over time but you will still see people say this mount is their favorite, or this minion is, or this title.

Didn't add to my post (on mobile currently so can't edit it) but that's why so many people dislike the EW weapons because they take little to no effort to finish, and barely any lore behind them where ARR + HW make the weapon feel like its an ultimate weapon you're making, StB's has you going to a zone filled with bizzare creatures and weather in order to make a special weapon, ShB has you pretty much fight in a warzone (+ fighting against god-like enties and a Queen) and DT so far at least makes you grind a bit for a step.
In EW you just... Stuff tomes into an NPC and you get it.

They will buff drop rate later on

I hated the DT grind at first but then got used to it. Bozja felt better for sure cause it felt like a good mix of doing content or the Bozja zones. Tomes are good for AFTER the initial grind. The END Manderville stuff was too easy, other than the fact that you had to have Hildebrand stuff unlocked.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

If you don't like bozja/OC, fine, but shouldn't you advocate for improvement rather than go "this sucks, let's just make future relic tomestones (like EW)"?

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Don't put stuff you obviously made up under quotes like I wrote something like this (I never did). I've always advocated for improvement when it comes to fates, out of all things. I've always advocated for more CLL/Dalriada and less dumb fates and basic vapid grind in field ops.

Currently tome relics are the less tedious stuff for me when going after relics, but that's just me individually.

I'd like relics to have better content, but so far it's been total shit half the time. But people find it good, and what I find good, they find bad. So we're stuck in that perpetual loop of the devs swinging back and forth between the exact same relic steps since the dawn of time: when it's not fate grinding (atmas, etc), it's dungeon/roulette grinding (books, light farming, etc). We've also had tome grinds as well, notably in Anima. The only time it's changed was for eureka were relics got gated behind the whole content. Even bozja had alternatives that were either fates, or dungeons, depending on the step.

I do not know what the answer is. You'll never have 100% of the population happy with whatever they pick, even if they introduce something brand new for them (cf how Eureka was received).

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because I’m not talking about Bozja and eureka, I’m talking about grinding in general. The relics have always been a grind but the form of the grind has differed. EW’s relics are NOT a grind. But they are praised as “giving people options” because people apparently need more reasons to run roulettes or do CC they were already doing

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EW relics are a grind too. Perhaps not as grindy as some other relics but that's a damn load of tomestones that were needed still. I know the argument is always "but I do my roulettes every day anyway" so what? You're playing the game and grinding on something. People could also argue that fate grinding is literally working on your bigems and every goodies behind the shared fate system anyway. Relics that require you to do alliance raids, etc, are exactly like tome grinds as well. Like what, do you think I did roulettes daily outside of EW relic steps? With all my jobs at max level and no use for my tomes?? Same shit literally. You can also do 5-10 fates a day and be done with fate relics in the same amount of time, it's no different than doing dailies for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you like doing something then do it for the sake of it. You (general you) shouldn’t need to co-opt relics to generate incentives for content that you supposedly enjoy doing anyway but that’s exactly what the EW relics were, people co-opting relics and removing their grind to generate incentives for content they supposedly already liked doing

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I do not understand that sentence at all.

it is already mostly just a tomestone relic. having to only do the first step in a specific manner once, is more than generous.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I've always advocated for more CLL/Dalriada and less dumb fates and basic vapid grind in field ops.

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:confused::confused: CLL, Dalriada, and DRN while we're at it, are basically 6-ish boss FATEs/CEs chained back to back. They are 90% comprised of the "DDR slop" that you despise. (I'll give CLL's prisoners and Dalriada's three hallways a pass.)

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I've heard of the STB/SHB/DT relics being useful in their respective Field Operation, but I wasn't aware that any of them were useful for certain Ultimates.

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To my knowledge, it's only the StB relic that specifically provides additional benefits in its corresponding field op, and only at the final stage.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

:confused::confused: CLL, Dalriada, and DRN while we're at it, are basically 6-ish boss FATEs/CEs chained back to back. They are 90% comprised of the "DDR slop" that you despise. (I'll give CLL's prisoners and Dalriada's three hallways a pass.)

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That's fair and I'm aware of it. I also used it because frankly, no matter people's opinion on the current pve model, they were quite beloved pieces of endgame content for casuals/everyone.

Still, CLL starts up with extremely creative and unconventional bosses at the wall, which is already a breath of fresh air and requires some team coordination. Next we get to deal with semi rng objectives (captives) to find and save by exploring the place, which feels already a lot more like a real dungeon or raid than the usual boss in a circular arena kind of slop we keep getting in other types of content. I do agree that past that point CLL goes back to what's essentially a DDR boss gauntlet with not much novelty beyond the party of "good players" you have to form at the last boss to go deal with Lyon.

Dalriada also starts trudging through mobs on a ramp and then properly working through lasers while the other part of the alliance deals with the controls, which I find to be a really cool concept, and again promotes team coordination with unusual trash mechanics that are actually close to what you'll find in criterion (notably the sprite section after the first boss in Rokkon). Then again, true, Dalriada just goes back to DDR boss gauntlet.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

If you don't like bozja/OC, fine, but shouldn't you advocate for improvement rather than go "this sucks, let's just make future relic tomestones (like EW)"?

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This is the most rational comment!

I am happy with the current system where we have a time consuming quest and tomes for the rest of it. A relic is supposed to be a time consuming and involved quest. It supposed to give us stuff to do on the side. Leave it be and if you want tomes only weapons, pick up one of the raid tome weapons.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

Lol. Learn to put the slightest bit of effort into something for once. Sorry for the harsh truth, but you should absolutely need to earn something that will eventually become the best weapon in the game for a bit, and will likely be your best weapon through the expansion.

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L Take.

Bozja was effort. With reasonably difficult (individually speaking) fights with engaging mechanics, oh, and some decent story and worldbuilding too.

The Demiatmas are an RNG slogfest, and even the conduit whatever bullshit they are is kind of RNG based--in the worst way--since most of the time Alliance is giving you Crystal Tower.

Effort is fine. But can the Devs show effort, too?

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I literally just took DRK from 90 to 100 only doing FATEs and still needed 4 Demiatma. Currently needing just 3 now.

At least give us an option to buy the materials with Tomestones in addition to the normal way please. Say 200 each or heck even 500 would work for me.

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This is the result of EW catastrophic direction about the targetted audience.

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Originally Posted by Basteala

L Take.

Bozja was effort. With reasonably difficult (individually speaking) fights with engaging mechanics, oh, and some decent story and worldbuilding too.

The Demiatmas are an RNG slogfest, and even the conduit whatever bullshit they are is kind of RNG based--in the worst way--since most of the time Alliance is giving you Crystal Tower.

Effort is fine. But can the Devs show effort, too?

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I'm sorry you found a 1/20 chance for the demi materia to be too intimidating. Those couple of hours it takes to do must be such a hardship! The later steps are typically a lot heavier on the grind side. I look forward to your reaction when this expansion's version of that step comes.

Oh, and which of Bozja's roulette steps and duty spam steps were your favorite? Just asking to see just how rose tinted your glasses were when you made the 2nd half of your post.

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Originally Posted by Valence

[...]Dalriada also starts trudging through mobs on a ramp and then properly working through lasers while the other part of the alliance deals with the controls, which I find to be a really cool concept, and again promotes team coordination with unusual trash mechanics that are actually close to what you'll find in criterion (notably the sprite section after the first boss in Rokkon). Then again, true, Dalriada just goes back to DDR boss gauntlet.

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For me, the saving grace was the addition of lost actions. I'm a geek when it comes to their uses and thoroughly enjoys going in with almost any jobs that I pick not because the base job was incredibly good, but because the lost actions changes the way I play them within the content vs outside Save the Queen regions.

It's what kept me motivated to run 255 DRNs in the patch they release Augmented Law Order step XD

>releases relic behind tomestones
>complains about relic steps being too simple

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/486109

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/490478

>releases relic behind actual non-tomestone steps
>complains about said steps being too grindy

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/518859

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/519149

No way ever to please you lot

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Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

No way ever to please you lot

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https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...e8ce7104a8.png

Everyone knows that no matter what happens, there will be a forum thread here bitching about it. YoshiP could come out tomorrow saying they found a way to solve all world hunger and you can bet within 5 seconds a thread will pop up about how he is awful for bankrupting grocery stores.

I honestly don't understand why people want relics to be turned into just another tomestone weapon.

At the moment, you could easily get a Quetzalli Greatsword for 500 uncapped tomestones.
If that is too low ilv, then you could go for a Historia Claymore, but need 4 Cruiser Holosaber.

Other options you have are the Monster Hunter fight, any extremes, Pilgrim's Traverse, crafted. Lots of options if you want a weapon.

They basically are tome weapons now.

Just need to get past the first step, then you can devalue all that effort by obtaining all subsequent relics through tomes.

Lol even.