Opinions on Crystal Tower: Labyrinth of the Ancients and Syrcus Tower

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

Would be better for all that AR weren't mandatory at all, in any place. Then that might help give the roulette some space. I think being restricting in the first place does not ever feel good.

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It didn't use to be. But when you get to a certain point in ShB's MSQ, if you don't know anything about CT and its related characters, the point kinda falls flat on its face. Heard it happened quite a bit back when ShB came out, and that is why they now force sprouts to do CT.


I think it'd be better to make all of them mandatory (at least to run the roulette, if you don't wanna do them you should be able to continue MSQ with some exceptions), it's great content, tons of resources go into it and they won't stop making them anytime soon, so...
They're also great for introducing sprouts to new mechs in a fairly low-stress environment. One death or even an entire alliance's rarely mean a wipe.

You shouldn’t be forced to unlock the other raids to progress the MSQ, that’s CT’s Biggest mistake already

You should just be unable to access the roulettes if you don’t have every possible raid unlocked that you can have at the point of the game you are at

There is no excuse to be in the middle of EW with only CT unlocked

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You shouldn’t be forced to unlock the other raids to progress the MSQ, that’s CT’s Biggest mistake already

You should just be unable to access the roulettes if you don’t have every possible raid unlocked that you can have at the point of the game you are at

There is no excuse to be in the middle of EW with only CT unlocked

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On top of that, I think adding more reasons to unlock alliance raids would encourage more players to do them.

Right now most players have CT unlocked because of the MSQ requirement changes in patch 5.3, many have Ivalice unlocked because of Bozja; if we could get new optional contents that are locked behind other alliance raid series as well, more players would consider checking them out.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

It reminds me of PSO2, where I (a melee) am running up to enemies to kill... oh wait... (ranged magical class) kills all the enemies in front me of due to being much higher in level. No resistance at all, one shot everything. Another game, WoW, felt similar. No resistance. I actually like the level sync in this game, because I get actual resistance from enemies, rather than over powering them, power creeping them, etc. I would not see a LVL100 BLM and think *wow, I look forward to having those skills* I would instead be thinking *ah, again I don't get to hit the enemies, which is what I'm here to do...*

Of course, who knows, could be wrong. But it needs to be tried and tested to see how people feel when LVL100s blast everything before you do.

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The idea about syncing it down with the full kit is also to balance the damage of higher levels to match the low level kits. You shouldn't over power them in a syncing situation. And what you described seems like actually a zero syncing scenario but like an over-world activity when a low level meets a high one. In fact it's hilarious that in WoW the back-scaling benefits more the low levels than the higher leveled people, both in dungeons (Timewalking) or in the same expansion's leveling range (eg a lv61 kills something much faster than a lv69).

This kind of situation, of a low level competing with a higher level for enemies, rarely occurs in XIV's over-world, because there's very little reason for anybody to actually farm enemies like that. Well, maybe Blue Mages leveling? But we know how it goes...

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Originally Posted by Striker44

If the rewards are still sufficient enough that people are willing to do the content even if it doesn't maximize their immediate enjoyment, then it's serving its purpose entirely. I'd say maybe you're new to MMO's, but your join date is back in 2015, so maybe not. For better or worse, it's a baked-in aspect of the MMO genre that certain aspects feel more like a "job" than anything else.

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I'm familiar with this idea but it has never been a "feature" that has drawn me to MMO's, instead it's something that I've put up with for the sake of everything else in the genre. Having to do X to receive Y isn't necessarily bad but some devs focus way too much on the reward and not the content leading up to it. FF14 has some lenient grinds but can also have very repetitive or dull (low level) content which can make even easy grinds feel very tedious.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So in the absence of known balance of whether the average person thinks diversity or speed is better when it comes to only CT or diversity then diversity still wins out because it’s also the actual utility purpose of the roulettes

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Instead of trying to please the average, I'd prefer to have options to attempt to please everyone. Having multiple roulettes isn't negating their utility function, so dividing them further shouldn't have negative effects.

it should be placed in MSQ roulette since it is required for MSQ while you are at it, place Ala Mhigo, alex, amourot, research facility, and Dead ends in MSQ the last dungeons of xpacks would be good for the roulette

CT raids were just annoying to get level Machi (60) raids were also annoying to get also missing so much of your kit at that point.
and being penalized on relic progression because if it makes it not so fun.

The relic step was very good work on squares part enjoyed very much doing roulettes with my FC xD

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Instead of trying to please the average, I'd prefer to have options to attempt to please everyone. Having multiple roulettes isn't negating their utility function, so dividing them further shouldn't have negative effects.

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The only way you’ll make that work is to completely split crystal tower into its own roulette, if you tried to split the current 6 sets in half for example you’d just be sacrificing mhach and ivalice to “save” nier, myths and echos

If your suggestion is 2 alliance roulettes; crystal tower and other then sure but every other way whatever is paired with CT loses to CT

Lower the max ilevel you can synch to there and increase the difficulty so you can't skip mechanics.

Over dps due to weird scalling does ruin the expirience for everyone.
CT should be updated soon as possible as it is a first expirience for a lot of new people but also it's quite common for everybody else since to unlock other raids you have to do a lot of tasks in the game.
I belive that better solution would be if raids were part of the MSQ somehow where way more people unlock them creating addtional diversity.
instead of 3 raids we could have 6 to mainstain the gear-up process

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Originally Posted by Shistar

It didn't use to be. But when you get to a certain point in ShB's MSQ, if you don't know anything about CT and its related characters, the point kinda falls flat on its face. Heard it happened quite a bit back when ShB came out, and that is why they now force sprouts to do CT.

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My problem with this is that there are two expansions (and dozens and dozens of hours) of content between CT and ShB. Personally, by the time I got to ShB, I didn't remember a single thing about the CT other than there was a large crystal tower with allagan stuff in it. Thus, the point still fell flat on its face because between CT and ShB, we're introduced to dozens of new characters and situations and nary a peep about the inner working of CT.

After over a decade they are just exhausting to play through. Yes they are faster but pulling a tooth is quicker than getting a filling, doesn't mean I want to do that either. I got Syrcus today and after the first pack I just left. I just do not want to do these dungeons anymore, no matter how face roll easy and fast they are.

As a legacy, I would love to know just how many times I have had to run these boring, tedious hallways of nothing. Same goes for nearly all the non-hard versions of the ARR dungeons. I actively avoid alliance and leveling roulettes most the time, due to them.

I think a big problem that I don't see talked about that much is that level 50 is just not fun to play anymore for many people. Level 50 is now half way through the leveling process and syncing down has really allowed it to show its age. I think if players had more to do then CT runs wouldn't be so bad. Also, it should be pointed out that it takes only 1 person to yoink 23 other people into the content, which goes a long way in why so many people see it so often.

My solutions are these, they don't need to be implemented together, but lets face it they will never happen:

1) Make level 50 funner to play
2) Turn these raids into 8- or 4-man content; they can have mechanics similar to Level 50 Hard Modes for extra spice
3) Increase the level requirement to 70 and scale things up to accommodate the change, if needed. This plays into solution 1 in that you just have more kit to work with.

Unironically, I might actually nominate the first corridor of Labyrinth as the best thing in the whole roulette. Even without a meaningful ilvl sync, it's still a joy just watching people regularly get deleted because… who knew that standing in the middle of trash and getting cleaved from all sides might actually hurt?

Is an alliance raid, the very first one!

tbf if they removed crystal tower from the roulette the new hated raid would be void arc. sure its lvl 60 but that one is just as braindead as syrcus

whiping city and dun scaith? oh yes pls, but the first one? im already tired of that one tbh. i like the aesthetic but its just the kind of design i get tired of a lot faster than other stuff.

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Originally Posted by FasaiLeFaye

My problem with this is that there are two expansions (and dozens and dozens of hours) of content between CT and ShB. Personally, by the time I got to ShB, I didn't remember a single thing about the CT other than there was a large crystal tower with allagan stuff in it.

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I get it, but that's not necessarily the game's fault...
If they made you do it right before ShB you'd be complaining they're "suddenly" asking you to do ARR content that you've had access to for ages, or you would have seen the plot twist coming from 50km away, or idk. If they never made you do it, the point would have a much larger chance to fall flat on its face.

If they make you do it when it's appropriate, you at least have a chance to remember and have some context for the plot twist.

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Originally Posted by FasaiLeFaye

Thus, the point still fell flat on its face because between CT and ShB, we're introduced to dozens of new characters and situations and nary a peep about the inner working of CT.

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You literally have a dialogue option to ask the Exarch about G'raha. It's one of the first things your WoL is allowed to tell the Exarch as soon as he gives you some context on the tower. What about the catboy we left in there.

It was the best compromise imho. They should have made the Omega raids obligatory before EW too.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

tbf if they removed crystal tower from the roulette the new hated raid would be void arc. sure its lvl 60 but that one is just as braindead as syrcus

whiping city and dun scaith? oh yes pls, but the first one? im already tired of that one tbh. i like the aesthetic but its just the kind of design i get tired of a lot faster than other stuff.

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All my homies hate the Void Ark. The only good thing in there is the BGM.

I don't see what people find an issue with them. I have never had a problem with any of these.

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Originally Posted by Garruss

I don't see what people find an issue with them. I have never had a problem with any of these.

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They are boring as all hell, what else is there really to say

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

They are boring as all hell, what else is there really to say

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Not only the encounters are boring and even mindless... But job rotations are like that too at level 50, which makes it even worse.

Until and unless the devs require another series of alliance raids for MSQ, we're going to have the issue of getting it 19 out of 20 runs. I actually like the series quite a bit so I'm less frustrated than most from my understanding.

However, what sucks is both Syrcus and WoD had a lot of interesting mechanics that are burned right past now. It's more old instances that are broken from how level syncing works. Syrcus is the most damaged example of phase skipping from gear and stats overpowering us I think in the whole game.

Easy quick level, easy quick gil. perfect.

My only issue with them is the Ilvl sync. You don't even get to see their mechanics. Sycus suffers the most from this as the bosses do actually have stuff to do, they are just suffer from bad tuning. A quick rework of these Alliances would work wonders, bring them back to their original design.

The Nier raids and Void ark are still my 2 most hated series. As long as I get a 24 man that isn't them I'm happy enough. I actually enjoy the CT raids. Nice and chill in and out job.

They could give it a hundred reworks and it will still suck as long we run them with half our rotation. It's not just the Alliance Roulettes that need to change.

Easy, quick, comfortable.

I’d love to know what people who tout crystal tower being quick and brainless as an advantage actually DO in this game and if they actually do something that takes up a significant amount of time why they even bother doing roulettes if their only goal is to just mindlessly do them as much as possible

If you are running roulettes as content why do you want to do the absolute minimum work possible, if roulettes are a barrier to doing content you want then why are you even doing the roulettes rather than just doing content you actually want to do

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’d love to know what people who tout crystal tower being quick and brainless as an advantage actually DO in this game and if they actually do something that takes up a significant amount of time why they even bother doing roulettes if their only goal is to just mindlessly do them as much as possible

If you are running roulettes as content why do you want to do the absolute minimum work possible, if roulettes are a barrier to doing content you want then why are you even doing the roulettes rather than just doing content you actually want to do

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It's a game not a job.
People are allowed to do something easy in the game.

CT needs to be its own roulette, like Main Scenario.

even on my other character at level 100, CT dominates the AR roulette too much. imo.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

CT needs to be its own roulette, like Main Scenario.

even on my other character at level 100, CT dominates the AR roulette too much. imo.

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TBH including more than Prae, Castrum and the occasional Ifrit on MSQ roulette would be nice. But it's still an ally raid.

Much like a lot of older content, CBU3 need to stop neglecting them and fix the scaling so they don't get steamrolled in 5 seconds, like they did for Endsinger.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

It's a game not a job.
People are allowed to do something easy in the game.

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If you view roulettes as an obligation you want to do quickly because you don’t want to spend a lot of time why even do the roulettes?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you view roulettes as an obligation you want to do quickly because you don’t want to spend a lot of time why even do the roulettes?

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Because you need tomes to do basically anything relevant in this game, sure, there are "better" ways to get tomes, such as hunt trains, but maybe your schedule doesn't work well with the usual hunt train times in your DC, or any other reason, meanwhile, roulettes are there (mostly) to your leisure.

I understand people who just want to get paid, I truly do, but even if I understand their reasons, I still think they are in the wrong for it, which is why I feel the way to fix the overdominance of CT is to rework the roulette system around people behavior.

The tome argument doesn’t even hold up because after the changes on a second by second basis crystal tower is actually the worst for times since every other alliance raid gives more tomes per minute of gameplay

I am sorry, but there is no way an additional 15 Mathematics makes up for the time difference between Syrcus Tower and The Tower at Paradigm's Breach, and Mathematics(or whatever capped tomes get called in any given patch) are the tomes that really matter.

I’d say it’s the uncapped tomestones that are more important considering capped tomestones weekly limits are so hilariously low it takes near zero effort to cap them and uncapped tomestones have multiple extensive sinks across alot of content

Regardless tower at paradigms breach is an outlier even amongst the longer alliance raids, something like rabanaste or euphorsyne benefits way more from those free bonus tomestones you get for doing non crystal tower raids

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The tome argument doesn’t even hold up because after the changes on a second by second basis crystal tower is actually the worst for times since every other alliance raid gives more tomes per minute of gameplay

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The ARR raid usualy takes 33% less time than those later raids. You can often enough clear these in similar times to regular dungeons.

But even then, i would gladly only get half the tomestones if i could avoid the ARR and HW raids entirely.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’d say it’s the uncapped tomestones that are more important considering capped tomestones weekly limits are so hilariously low it takes near zero effort to cap them and uncapped tomestones have multiple extensive sinks across alot of content

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I can understand this angle, but also they are uncapped, you can reasonably farm every uncapped tome you will need for the whole patch on week one, and if you prepare well and only play one Job, you may not even need to farm them, the 2500 you can pre-emptively prepare should be enough or close to enough for your single set of crafted gear, it's because capped tomes are capped that they need constant maintenance, not every day, obviously, but they will get you returning to roulettes a few days a week for months.

CT should be transformed into solo instances and removed from the roulette entirely

I've been reading a bit throughout the thread, and there have been some good solutions, and some bad ones.

Personally, I think we need to look at design since I actually had this discussion with my Forked Tower raid tonight.

First of all, as another said earlier in the thread, these raids being the first Alliance Raid series definitely sets the bar and tone for the time, which was back when ARR was current - when we had an entirely different game.

Taking it from a different scope, over time we've lost what made Labyrinth actually challenging due to iLv and potency increases across the board for all jobs so they can focus on developing raids for the next expansion(Heavensward, and so on and so on). This makes me think on how this content was attempted to make evergreen only because it was tied tot he story, which is a rather poor excuse since sure, the story might be a good one since they're connecting the dots, but gameplay-wise people don't like it. It essentially reminds me of the roadblock of having to kill Titan, Ifrit, and Garuda a second time on Hard Mode, which honestly just doesn't make sense for me except in Heavensward where Titan Hard was required.

If anything, it's tedium - and when a majority of the new playerbase is trying Alliance Raids for the first time, they used to get overwhelmed(I sure did back then), but with how strong powercreep has gone over the years there is no threat to be had in Crystal Tower outside of WoD, which actually still showcases its mechanics properly due to it being the 'end of expansion' Alliance Raid tuned for Final Coil gear.

This happens every expansion because they do not consider how badly item level can be, which I hope they get a sharp reminder about The Final Day.

Speaking of The Final Day...let's give that a talk for a bit. Remember when during Asphodelos and later Abyssos there was a major issue where people had their experience cut short because some Trial groups just smashed damage?

Yeah...about that. I did an experiment during that time period and it was possible to knock her down to 0.1%, but you could not kill her outside of the cutscene there. This sparked a lot of talk about how our end-game Trials were facing the same problem at capstone: iLv was cheesing them hard to the point they weren't a threat.

The same goes for Alliance Raids, and this has been proven by The Final Day since after the change where they limited max iLv, you could see the fight after and actually feel good about it, even during Dawntrail. No more skipped cinematic work or voice work involved.

As much as I know people are saying "iLv won't fix it", it'll fix the damage problem at minimum if they go that route, and if the bosses still get dumpstered as they are now? Then that will require a real rework of the fights themselves.

The raids need some polish with how much the game has progressed

My take; Update CT raids make them punishing again maybe update it with assets from the EW stuffs give us cool visiuals and interesting new bosses
(it's why most peps like second walk and puppet's bunker)

More important is to make the classes have most of their kit by level 50

for EX

a Blackmage should have fire 4 and despair by Lv50

a war should have the inner release / nascent flash by Lv50

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you view roulettes as an obligation you want to do quickly because you don’t want to spend a lot of time why even do the roulettes?

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What part of "it's not a job" do you not understand?