You saw a higher % of people completing wow end game, because obviously you are bad at math..... A game with 10-12 million people vs a game with 500K.... Now think about it....Quote:
Originally Posted by Byakko
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08-20-2012, 05:20 AMXxOstiaxX
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08-20-2012, 05:20 AMindira
casual or hardcore how about none.
we need content thats fun to do plain and simple if it makes you want to do it thats good stuff, if you feel like omg not again thats bad content. when your stuck grinding things or if the game turns into a number cruncher its just another blah mmo thats overflowing on the market. -
08-20-2012, 05:31 AMXxOstiaxXDint you get the memo ? Alone in the dark, can be completed with just one tank and a healer brah!Quote:
Originally Posted by fusional
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08-20-2012, 05:33 AMZumi
WoW is not very forgiving on mistakes. It was like you make a mistake you wipe run back to the zone redo the fight, you were back in the zone ready to repull in like 3-5 min. FFXI is much more forgiving with mistakes but often you had long lockouts to redo bosses in the event you did wipe, dynamis lord 3 days, salvage 1 day, limbus farm another pop set 2 weeks.
FFXIV is a different kind of hard. More to do with lag and stuff. I beat all the Uldar hard modes at lv80 cap Firefighter, even 0 light yogg, all of heroic ICC. I didn't have an issue playing WoW at all 40-50 MS lag wasn't that bad. Couldn't really make any progress on Garuda, AV, or CC. If it wasn't for the lag I don't think the fights would be that hard in FFXIV. Had a group of people who played FFXI and WoW they mostly quit FFXIV due to dying to mechanics that shouldn't of died to.
Stuff like Garuda was beyond annoying still never killed it. We got to the point where she does her conal wind attack looks like people moved out of LoS but well they still died.
In my guild people just didn't want to play the game because it seemed broken. We saw similar stuff during Ifrit, getting hit by circles that we moved out of, getting hit by cracks which we were not standing in. People getting hit by mogs flare from across the room, although this wasn't much of an issue because it wouldn't kill you most of the time but it was still annoying. -
08-20-2012, 05:54 AMWolfieDid you even play FFXI man? You've got this whole thing backwards. In FFXI you could HOLD monsters to change their respawn timer or wait for the rest of the LS to show up, and everybody carried reraise hairpins because it was incredibly hard to wipe in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
In WOW, there are strict rage timers, fight mechanics, and limited in-combat ressurects that punish the group heavily for deaths. There is no wipe recovery in WOW: you wipe, you start the fight over from scratch. -
08-20-2012, 06:00 AMBabydoll
I dont want a wow clone.. I want to see what Yoshida can do from his own influences :o
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08-20-2012, 06:01 AMDuelleFalse. FFXI is the most hybrid unfriendly game to have ever hit the MMO market. "Creative" in this case meant "having the right jobs for the content or you were SOL". Liked how Summoners were in previous FF's (destructive powerhouses with avatars)? Too bad, you're a curebitch until the leader calls for you to use Astral Flow, after which you return to being a curebitch. Like Red Mages and their versatility? Too bad, you're the group's refresh-whore and you better enjoy spamming refresh and haste on your party. Liked Puppetmaster enough that you want to full time the job? Too bad, you're a loljob and should have a "real" job leveled for endgame and events. The list goes on. Let's not pretend the game encouraged creativity, because the exact opposite happened. And before you mention it, soloing in an MMO built around party play is meaningless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byakko
I can vouch for this. You take me back when you mention firefighter. So many memories, so many wipes. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by fusional
Indeed. Theres also the fact that you can't rez people unless you have a Druid or Warlock, both of which had a combat rez, the limits on potions and how fights are tuned so that most of the class cooldowns are one-shot per fight (or every other fight in the case of Bloodlust/Heroism). And the fact that trash mobs respawned if you took too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
This is true. The few times I've fought Garuda I could tell the server and client discrepancy is pretty pronounced. Irks me a bit because Garuda is pretty much Sapphiron meets Hagara the Stormbinder meets Auriaya. That's why I am hoping for better response times between the client and the server in 2.0. Dying to the lag boss is a million times more aggravating than dying because you screwed up during the fight.Quote:
I didn't have an issue playing WoW at all 40-50 MS lag wasn't that bad. Couldn't really make any progress on Garuda, AV, or CC. If it wasn't for the lag I don't think the fights would be that hard in FFXIV. Had a group of people who played FFXI and WoW they mostly quit FFXIV due to dying to mechanics that shouldn't of died to.
This is an overly simplified way of saying "people need to know the boss mechanics in order to win". Which is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
Arch Dynamis Lord was basically a fight where you had a strict 33.333% chance of winning once he split because you have to kill the "right" one in order to win the fight. Without any indicators as to which would be the "right" one. That entirely removes skill and gearing out of the equation and replaces them with sheer dumb luck. That's what I meant by Russian roulette. -
08-20-2012, 06:10 AMWolfieWOW clone is such a dumb term. FFXIV will never be a WOW clone, because literally everything about the game would have to be thrown out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
The fact that Yoshida is doing research into the market and what the typical MMO consumer is like does not mean that this game will turn into RIFT or SWTOR. -
08-20-2012, 06:15 AMAndrien
I just want to log in and have fun on any job/class I choose, I don't want frustration. If there is going to be a long process to archiving something "hardcore" at least I hope they make that process fun too.
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08-20-2012, 06:25 AMSontawilaIn life, not in gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaalAzura
What you call "difficult" in FFXI is no more than a colossal time waste that no one should endure. I understand that some people feel the urge to justify wasting their life trying to acquire that "special" relic/item and in most cases spend 7+ years (SEVEN+ YEARS) playing everyday just to be burnt out and never realizing their goals.
FFXI holds a special place in my heart since it was the first MMO I played for 2years and there are lots of great aspects that I'd like to see adopted here but endgame content is not one them.
I'm all for more difficult content that actually require skills and close coordination (Garuda was a step in the right direction) but NEVER will I want something like FFXI's endgame BS. -
08-20-2012, 07:37 AMGramul
Y'all can hate on XI and praise WoW all you like, but the fact of the matter is, XI was fun to a lot of us, and when XIV was comming out, we thought we'd have something like it again instead of all the other MMO's with a WoW skeleton that didn't match the experience we had.
I'm looking forward to long term goals and a large complex world with mystery and lore with strategy based fighting, and complex but rewarding crafting. If XIV can give me these things in 2.0, awesome. If not, I'll probably just stop playing MMO's for a while. -
08-20-2012, 07:45 AMAmage
you want WoW go to wow ty
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08-20-2012, 07:48 AMAmageI agree i want the feeling i got when i played FFXIQuote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
when i got my Dring when i got through C.O.P f that when i beat 6-4 ..
then they made it easy for n00bs who wanted to kill it with lvl 75s etc etc (i know you can say old content) but the feeling you did something compares to no other game -
08-20-2012, 07:48 AMTimonLoon
News Flash: In terms of actual fights and mechanics - WoW's endgame was on a whole different level of difficulty when compared to XI. The only thing that was hard about XI was putting up with killing Fafnir 500 times to get 3 Ridills. If that's your idea of difficult the door is right there. Don't let it hit you on the way out.
Ask anyone that did Karahzan, Naxxaramus, etc back in the days. They'll tell you all about how "easy" WoW was. Even the toned down stuff that WoW got with Cataclysm was fairly difficult at first but I want this game's encounters to mimic the difficulty of WoW Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King (those had some of the most punishing encounters I've ever witnessed).
Edit: Omg how could I forget "Alone in the Dark". That shit took soooo long to finally get down pre-nerf. -
08-20-2012, 07:53 AMDarkhaund
OP.
you are totally wrong if you want another WoW Clone
Get out of here! -
08-20-2012, 07:58 AMDuelleDude, it's less about hating on XI and more about seeing it for what it was, with all its flaws and everything. The game was not all pink clouds and rainbows, and to look back at it as such is folly. And to know the negatives of XI simply gives us a reason to not want to see history repeat itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
And it's not like we're making any of this up. Most of fusional's observations concur with how I felt while hopping between both games. He/she is just better at putting it in words. -
08-20-2012, 08:04 AMJokerz
2 completely different games made at completely different eras catering to completely different fans... makes perfect sense to compare them.
Is it too much for FFXIV to stand on it's own merits? -
08-20-2012, 08:09 AMkhaled
Make it hardcore as CoP when they released it :3.
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08-20-2012, 08:09 AMTimonLoonFFXIV 1.0 did stand on it's own merits... and it fell to it's knees shortly after for not learning from those that came before it. Even everyone's rose-tinted goggles FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokerz
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08-20-2012, 08:17 AMJokerzIdk I didn't play 1.0 from the start so no clue what it was like in the beginning. But I'm currently enjoying the game and the only thing I wish for would be more content and alliances.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimonLoon
However I've played all the games mentioned and then some and honestly I hope FFXIV ARR doesn't turn out too much like either, there are points I like about WoW as well as FFXI's and their are points I hate about both of them either. But strictly copying one form or the other will not help this game succeed as has been evident in the past with other mmo's that are too similar to the WoW...This is one aspect where I think the community kinda hurts the game, wanted too many features from other titles>.>; -
08-20-2012, 09:00 AMshanvhere
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08-20-2012, 09:45 AMRuneSevalle
WoW is hard? Anyone can just install DBM and press whatever buttons needed whenever they're told to. You mean the DPS race fights? Heh. Not even slightly hard. Didn't make it this week? No worries. There's no outside competition, we can keep doing this til our eyes bleed.
Quick comparison, how long did it take people to be AV, PW, Dynamis Lord, hell, Nyzul Isle? (Let alone HNMs that have a degree of competition that very few LSes could keep up with), then how long did it take to beat Hard Mode Dragonsoul?
Yeah, the time it took to beat WoW endgame was always less time than FFXI. That's why there are expansions and patches coming out so dang often to sate the people that already have FULL gear sets from the current content. FFXI, on the other hand, had optimal gear pieces that remained as such for a very, very long time. Byakko's haidate, anyone? It wasn't until the incredible dumbing down of Abbyssea that this ever changed. What's that? Time doesn't equal difficulty? True, but there were NO difficult encounters in WoW. It was just a matter of having the right add-ons, with the right gear, and a group of people that had enough of a brain to press 1,2,3,4,5 in the right orders.
Oh, you want a special achievement meant for the people that have full gearsets? How's that hard? It only took those people about a month (if even that) before the progressive guilds were on farm-mode.
TL;DR FFXI high-end endgame was much greater than WoW's Add-on encumbered endgame. Period. FFXIV should take aspects from both, but should probably favor more from FFXI than from WoW when it comes to endgame content. FFXIV has potential to trump both if they can keep third-party add-on junk out of the game. -
08-20-2012, 10:07 AMXxOstiaxXLet me quickly educate you my ignorant friend..... First Add-on's do not do anything that the current game does not do, it simply gives you a better picture of the information, there is no add on that you install and gives you a WIN BUTTON! Please do educate yourself before you start talking.Quote:
Originally Posted by RuneSevalle
On the notion that XI content was cleared slower than Wow's well, for once you have 10-12 million people playing one, and you had 500K playing another, is simple numbers man, the % of people playing at the very top in WOW was probably equal or double the entire population of XI. Also Xi had roadblocks in place to artificially extend the life of content, as opposed to wow, wich had a more "Free access, beat if you can direction), what i mean by that is that in XI you had to most of the time beat other bosses or do chores time and time again in order to obtain an item to summon the boss you wanted, and they also had the horrible mechanic of spawning bosses, wish in turn turned into a bot war, where the difficulty became, claiming a mob before another LS did.... That was the hardest part in XI getting a claim....
Now go on your way, and educate yourself. -
08-20-2012, 10:12 AMStarlordQuote:
Now go on your way, and educate yourself.
You can make your point without insulting them, that is all.Quote:
Your Stupid
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08-20-2012, 10:25 AMZumiQuote:
Originally Posted by RuneSevalle
The FFXI philosophy has always been horizontal progression until the level 75 uncap and abyssea. While WoW has always been vertical gear progression. They are different ways to design a mmo. FFXI wanted to keep players around with low drop rates, side grades, gear grinds that take forever a lot of players were satisfied with this because their Byakkyos haidate stayed BiS for years. WoW is more of a keep adding new raids, new tiers of content with decent gear drop rates to keep people playing by always adding new better gear and raids which require a higher gear level to do.
But it sounds like you never played WoW seriously in a top end guild because the hard mode raids are definitely harder then anything FFXI had to offer, there is no way to argue that they weren't.
The best guild in the world killed heroic Deathwing 4 weeks after it was out. However the majority of the playerbase could not kill it that fast. However Blizzard nerfs their raids over time so more people can clear them, they gave Dragon Soul a 30% hp/damage done nerf, even with that only 21% of the total raiding guilds have cleared Heroic Dragon Soul. Your average player still can't beat it.
AV and PW were both broken fights they aren't even comparable to something like Heroic Dragon Soul where the fights actually work and designed to be beatable. Both bosses had kill your whole alliance mechanics and nothing you could do about it which kept them unbeat for years. The thing is people didn't beat AV and PW until they added the summon Alexander so they could use Perfect Defense (mitigates damage) and zerg it. PW was manageable until his final phase where he spammed Astral Flow non stop to everyone was dead at every 25% hp. However once the 75 cap was lifted both fights became a joke.
Dynamis Lord came out shortly after the NA release of FFXI at a time where many NA players were still leveling to 75 but that didn't stop JP players from killing him close to his release saw many JP people with shadow mantle a couple weeks after his release.
Nyzul was very easy people were getting discs to max level without much problem only thing that made it take a couple weeks was you only got 1 tag pre day.
If you take 10 or 25 random mmo players give them ilvl397 gear and DBM throw then in heroic dragon soul in WoW there is very little chance they will be able to beat it. Having played WoW I know game does not play itself like you seem to think. It takes a lot of situational awareness which isn't needed much at all to do endgame in FFXI and knowledge about the fights and the class you play to be good at the game.
WoW pretty much is the MMO standard when people pick up a game they want it to be similar in aspects to other games in the genre. When I pick up a FPS it should feel like a FPS, when I play a fighting game it should feel like a fighting game. A lot of people played FFXIV and it really didn't feel like a MMO it felt unfinished and broken. If Yoshi is taking stuff from WoW like the UI, equipment screen, drag and drop interface for armor and hotbars ect, queue system for dungeons, quests for leveling those are all fundamental things that should be in a modern mmo they aren't really unique to WoW.
Yoshi is trying to make FFXIV feel like a modern MMO with a Final Fantasy style and that's perfectly fine. -
08-20-2012, 10:45 AMXxOstiaxXYou can stop acting like the forum police/SE employee, that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
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08-20-2012, 10:46 AMStarlordIt's called being polite which is something you don't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX
Edit: Like Zumi she made her point without trying to cause a fight with the other person. -
08-20-2012, 10:52 AMReiterpallaschFor normal mode content, maybe. If you're doing hardmodes (raids, not dungeons), 1 mistake usually meant a full wipe. You get very limited number of attempts to rez/raise people, where as in XI you can just continually reraise dozens of times if you feel like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
Why do people who have never done a games endgame, always feel the need to comment about it? -
08-20-2012, 10:53 AMXxOstiaxXHow exactly is acting like the forum police/square employee being polite ? Hmm!Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
Oh btw is the 19th.... Where is your flood brah ? -
08-20-2012, 10:54 AMStarlordNot acting like anything just pointing out what I see. And there you go again trying to start a fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX
Edit: Flood depends on the person, you may not think its a flood, ( and I agree it wasn't exactly a bombardment) but the Gameplay alone speak a 1,000 words, as the saying goes a picture speaks a thousand words. 27 Screenshots + Gameplay Footage is alot of information along with the few interviews that came out thus far. -
08-20-2012, 12:04 PMXxOstiaxXThere is nothing subjective about a Flood! A flood is either a flood or not a flood, there is no in between here, the only thing positive so far has been the gameplay video, and even that was not released by SE :) Wich brings a lot of questions, as far as the screenshots, who cares really, 27 or 30 worked screenshots are not a flood.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
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08-20-2012, 12:09 PMStarlordI'm not going to argue with you, but judging by those Screens and Presentation Its already better than the Original FFXIV, People aske for Screenshots.. they get Screenshots they complain.. People ask for Videos.. they get Videos, people complain, People ask for gameplay, they get gameplay, they complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX
Honestly, all I can say to you and anyone else thats having problems, wait till 2.0, because there's not a whole lot they can just "change" being this close to Launch. -
08-20-2012, 12:20 PMelreed
Some would miss the good point that op has because theres no examples, as i see it is casual content means no long timesinks without reason, hard content i would compare Garuda fight with ifrit hard mode, after they fixed that fight theres a lot of difficulty and teamwork in that fight, ifrit fight is just know the spots, i want more fights like garuda for endgame
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08-20-2012, 02:54 PMJeronlmo
Some of this is prob mixed up (in placement), its late, kinda just typing as I thought of things.
Played WoW for about... 2 1/2 months, quit about 6months ago... maby longer, idr.
Ilvl 398 resto druid - full heroic gems
Ilvl 394 prot pally - full heroic gems
Ilvl 393 shadow priest - full heroic gems
Ilvl 396 combat rogue - full heroic gems (legendary around 75% complete or something)
7 capped professions
4/8 heroic (nearly killed 2 skittles and higara heroic last week i played)
The last few weeks i basically stopped logging on, all I did was wait for each characters DS timers to be up then wait for each chars raid day, so 90min/week/char.
I know mentioning all of this is going to bring some obv trolling but the game isnt hard. Its a flat out joke. Your all praising old raids that were hard, Yoshi is forcing his team to play wow "now", not in the past (time machine?). The thing im worried about are the stupid nerfs that wow does shortly after any content release, if even a single group/party/ally of people can win a piece of content, it should never be nerfed, ever, its beatable, suck less.
Gear is handed to you in wow mainly because its 1 class/raid, if priest gear drops, guess who gets it... the priest, and (trying to remember...) what.. like 3 pieces are 100% to drop? People get geared very quickly and it kills content, saying that many cant beat the content and only 30% or something of raiding guilds can win it now at a 35% nerf means very little to me. The fact that 5% beats it often considering how big the WoW community is sounds like a prob to me, thats alot of people with nothing to do.
I had never seen/played wow before hand, I didnt know anyone that played but my super-casual brother who is now 6/8 heroic with his bad guild saying things like "we would be 8/8 by now but its only a 35% nerf). (and yes I tell him to "suck less")
Saw a few post actually judgeing people for playing more than them... lol, you only make them/us want to play more knowing it makes you so mad. I have a family/own a business, ill play as much as I fkn want, and if Ican beat all the content, the game failed, MMO's should be unbeatable, which is why I liked 11, no matter how much you play, even the best endgame ls's in the game, they didnt win, they were still playing til the game died (abyssea/lvl cap increase did kill 11).
If... and I do mean if... FF14 had some of the old fights that I saw WoW, though when i played them, they were a complete jokes, I did see the old mechanics, and it was interesting, i wouldnt be against it really... I just fear out-dated content, 11 basically had 0 outdated content... ever, mainly, if not completely because of gear swaps. Best example is the old "relics" in wow that were lvl50 or something, is now a joke to get, so all the time people put into it was wasted, I started years and years after them, and I was better than their relics from a few days after i started my char. -
08-20-2012, 03:04 PMRuisuMost people got to level 20, thought that was what endgame was like, and called it quits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch
Which is funny because if you did that in XI you would have just barely gotten your subjob. -
08-20-2012, 05:12 PMChurchill
I'll just point at that before the 2h update and some changes to how pDIF and level correction worked, those were the only things making XI difficult.
You had a game where the "boss" mobs took -50% damage from a Lv75 character from the get-go, not accounting for the fact that players could not cap pDIF (making that -50% more like -80%) or Accuracy. This is why Ranger and Black Mage were the preferred end game classes. Black Mage has an easier time dealing with higher level mobs, and their gear is easier to stack for such and Ranger suffered almost no level correction penalty.
"Difficult" should not be confused with "poorly designed". You're talking about Dynamis Lord kills in a period of time where 8months earlier WAR was tanking things by spamming barspells and PLD was a main healer. -
08-20-2012, 05:34 PMAceofspades
hmm, not sure who is right or wrong on the technical side of things, as i dont program games, however as a gamer, I see a game in two lights, fun or not fun. WoW was not fun, FFXI (pre level cap 80) , and ffxiv (after yoshi took over and started fixing stuff) were/are both fun. I like the more realisic take on stats and how they effect each job/class, and how the graphics run along the line of being more realisic, even xi had a more realistic aproach to game designe. Going to admit tho, if they put a train in this game , its gona kinda lose that apeal. They are already pusshing it with space ship like airships and magicly powered robots. If they introduce light sabors, im outa here lol.
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08-20-2012, 05:38 PMGokulo
Since the very first announcements XIV was advertised as a mix of fantasy and s-f/steam punk, so you should not be surprised by such elements in the game.
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08-20-2012, 05:47 PMAceofspades
lol , did you call me a "punk" or is that a term I am not understanding , from you. Either way, didnt say I was turned off all together by the game , just dosent make sense that we would be using swords and arrows, or even muskets , if others have available , lasers , robots and , god forbid, machine guns. that hasn't happend yet, besides the robot part, but If it did, It would obviously remove some of the lore from the game, not that it wouldn't make sense via story line, just wouldnt make sense logicaly. As far as calling me a "punk" , I just gota LOL at that, to get soo excited of ones mild views over a game is just stupid, thats IF thats how you intended it.
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08-20-2012, 05:55 PMGokulo
Lol, google "steam punk" :P
Aside of there existing something like genre mixes (and this games was advertised as such, so you saying it wouldn't make sense doesn't work here), it explains you can have stuff like sword and arrows with robots next to them ;)