7.1 - Jobs, meet sandpaper

On TCJ - I see both sides of the argument but I fall in favour of the change simply because of how the boss movement works now. If I were still the tank's job to keep bosses properly positioned then it wouldn't matter that NIN has to stand still for 5 seconds because the boss wouldn't do something stupid in that time. But the devs have clearly decided that it's not the tank's job anymore and that screws everyone over, further, NIN rotation puts TCJ smack bang in the middle of a mechanic for Alexandria's first boss so in my experience you commit to TCJ and die or break it and live but ruin your rotation - That doesn't seem fair to me.

As for Holy, meh. I suppose it makes sense to standardise it's cast time and it means you can weave without clipping the GCD but I don't think that adds anything much to WHM.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

If you like frictionless gameplay just afk at Limsa.

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There's a lot more friction in Limsa chats than in combat.

I absolutely hate that they changed Nastrond/Geirskogul. I don't understand why they thought that taking away what little we had to do was a good idea. DRG burst felt so satisfying, who was asking for less?

Idk. I feel satisfied when I know I can simply move my TCJ toward the back of the burst window and still pull it off just fine. I feel rewarded for knowing how to improvise around a set limitation. I don't play high ends in 7.0 so who knows. To me this is yet another victim to "Hurrdurr must perform rotation order as the guide says so or flop"-mentality.

So what's next on the chopping block? Mudra combinations? Rabbit of shame?

I wonder if everytime we like an ability or a mechanic on a game we have to overstate it now in case they get ideas.

Wooooow I sure love that BLM is based around positioning and moviiing, I'm so glad we're not doing insta casting that'd be so boooriinnnng.

If people think 8.0 is gonna be anything other than what 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, and 7.0 all were, they're failing to recognize a longstanding pattern in how they create content for this game.

Enjoy 40 hours of cutscenes that raise you to level 110.

Enjoy your two-trash-packs-then-boss-x3 dungeons at levels 101, 103, 105, 107, and 109.

Enjoy your three trials with two extremes (third extreme coming in 8.1 obviously).

Enjoy the following changes to your favorite job: Skill A is no longer an isolated skill; it now replaces Skill B after Skill B is used. Skills C and D have an additional charge. Skill E will now replace skill F after skill F is used. Your two-minute burst is now 90 seconds long.

See you for 9.0 in three years.

The formula is still printing money, so they're not going to change it.

"Actually, I'm glad players have less ways to express their skill with a job." - People happy for the ninja change

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

"Actually, I'm glad players have less ways to express their skill with a job." - People happy for the ninja change

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The skill of remembering that this one random ability bricks itself if you move on a job that otherwise don't punish you for moving.

WoW, such skill.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

The skill of remembering that this one random ability bricks itself if you move on a job that otherwise don't punish you for moving.

WoW, such skill.

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By that logic we should remove cast times on iiajutsu

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

The skill of remembering that this one random ability bricks itself if you move on a job that otherwise don't punish you for moving.

WoW, such skill.

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More skill than you need now.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

The skill of remembering that this one random ability bricks itself if you move on a job that otherwise don't punish you for moving.

WoW, such skill.

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Post brought to you by someone who moved 1 too many times during ten chi jin and never quite recovered.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

By that logic we should remove cast times on iiajutsu

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And from summoner.

The incredibly formulaic patch cycle paired with the relentless removal and "streamlining" of features is making it very difficult to enjoy the game for me. Oh, joy. We get to do exactly the same thing again but with less.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

"Actually, I'm glad players have less ways to express their skill with a job." - People happy for the ninja change

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They also severely reduced movelocks/vastly improved animation speeds on Dragoon jumps a while go, since those also have been troublesome to use - Something people back then said it needed 'skill' to use them properly.
So much for that.


Glad TCJ has been finally brought up to speed with the rest, since the current DwaD/Assassinate movelock is barely a problem anymore.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

By that logic we should remove cast times on iiajutsu

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They should just cut out all pretense and replace all abilities with 3: Damage, Heal, and Survive. No resource costs, positional benefits, range requirements, cast times, nothing.

The healer changes kinda just make me upset. Has the complaint that our job is way too easy and unneeded not reached the devs or smth? Because I don't think I've heard anyone complaining about stuff like MP Regen or that WHM has a slightly longer cast time on their AOE. If anything we want the jobs to stop homogenizing into the exact same 1 button snoozefest across all healers for all 100 levels.

Not that I expect an overhaul at the drop of a hat but... Why keep making stuff more brain dead and boring while we wait for real changes?

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

The healer changes kinda just make me upset. Has the complaint that our job is way too easy and unneeded not reached the devs or smth? Because I don't think I've heard anyone complaining about stuff like MP Regen or that WHM has a slightly longer cast time on their AOE. If anything we want the jobs to stop homogenizing into the exact same 1 button snoozefest across all healers for all 100 levels.

Not that I expect an overhaul at the drop of a hat but... Why keep making stuff more brain dead and boring while we wait for real changes?

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Holy being made a 1.5 second cast is one of the few changes in this patch that I think makes sense. WHM having longer cast times made sense when the job was more GCD heal oriented. Now that it does most of it's healing via oGCD, it makes more sense for it to be able to weave those oGCDs.

I can understand that. But I liked it because it provided a bit of challenge in the kit and felt proportional. Like, you get an AOE stun, so you have to stun yourself a little/be smart with how you position while you use it.

Now its making it's way towards being the same as the other healer aoes.

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

I can understand that. But I liked it because it provided a bit of challenge in the kit and felt proportional. Like, you get an AOE stun, so you have to stun yourself a little/be smart with how you position while you use it.

Now its making it's way towards being the same as the other healer aoes.

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In what way do you feel that Holy being a 2.5 second cast was challenging? Personally, I just found that it meant that I had to clip my GCD to heal in dungeons. You can Swiftcast your first holy and weave PoM/Assize, then you're clipping your GCD every time you want to heal.

I don't find this challenging, I find it annoying.

WHM in dungeons is exclusively oGCD healing and then burning lilies out of dungeons to proc blood lily. It doesn't really make sense for it to not be able to weave those oGCDs IMO.

I just told you, because it forced you to stay in place longer in a pack of enemies/make choices about where you stand. Now that choice is easier because you're not rooted as long.

And I'm not saying there aren't upsides to this change, just that they are currently making the job/healers easier when everyone is asking for the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

I just told you, because it forced you to stay in place longer in a pack of enemies/make choices about where you stand. Now that choice is easier because you're not rooted as long.

And I'm not saying there aren't upsides to this change, just that they are currently making the job/healers easier when everyone is asking for the opposite.

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It generally doesn't though. You just put liturgy down and tank the hits.

You don't have liturgy in every encounter.

SE hears the "players will optimise fun out of the game if you let them" and seemed to have concluded they must optimise the fun out for the players in their stead.

Now go!
Enjoy your tanks that are all 95% the same, lest the 0.001% of crazy raiders kick you for playing Paladin.
Enjoy your healers who cast glare for the entire fight and wouldn't touch a GCD heal if their lives (literally) depended on it.
Enjoy your DPS rotations that are clunky and monotonous to ensure they fit into their nice little 60s burst, god 60s burst is so beautiful, I WANNA KEEP A SHRINE TO 60s BURST IN MY ROOM, IF I SEE A 59s ABILITY MY CRIPPLING OCD WILL MAKE ME DELETE MY CHARACTER I SWEAR TO YOSHI-P SAMA!

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

You don't have liturgy in every encounter.

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Every dungeon is trash > trash > boss > repeat.

The first trash pull melts before Holy stun wears off because of raid buffs / full openers.

You can use Liturgy for the second trash pull.

You don't cast Holy in boss fights.

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Originally Posted by undull1

Enjoy your healers who cast glare for the entire fight and wouldn't touch a GCD heal if their lives (literally) depended on it.

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Most of the time they're casting Glare because there's nothing else to do. WAR and PLD can usually keep themselves healed to a point where usually you're not even needed, and now they're buffing GNB and even DRK towards that direction... Just so Healers can cast more Glare, or other equivalent.

The least they could do if this is the route they want to go is make the Healer attack strong enough to provide a meaningful contribution to fights...

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

In what way do you feel that Holy being a 2.5 second cast was challenging? Personally, I just found that it meant that I had to clip my GCD to heal in dungeons. You can Swiftcast your first holy and weave PoM/Assize, then you're clipping your GCD every time you want to heal.

I don't find this challenging, I find it annoying.

WHM in dungeons is exclusively oGCD healing and then burning lilies out of dungeons to proc blood lily. It doesn't really make sense for it to not be able to weave those oGCDs IMO.

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Or, the WHM can judge properly whether they'll need those lilies so they can pop it to move and weave instead of just mindlessly burning them out of combat (Keeping at least one is what I've always did and 9 out of 10 times I never need to clip GCD to heal with oGCD). Altogether with considering if they want to drop Asylum/Lilybell/Aquaveil on the last Dia/Regen Cast before they plant themselves to spam Holy.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Or, the WHM can judge properly whether they'll need those lilies so they can pop it to move and weave instead of just mindlessly burning them out of combat (Keeping at least one is what I've always did and 9 out of 10 times I never need to clip GCD to heal with oGCD). Altogether with considering if they want to drop Asylum/Lilybell/Aquaveil on the last Dia/Regen Cast before they plant themselves to spam Holy.

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Spoiler: You don't need those lilies.

You also don't need to cast Dia or Regen after the initial pull - in fact, it's a net loss to do so. Every GCD after the pull has been set up should be Holy. You can play generally play WHM as a pure oGCD healer in dungeons from 70 onwards. By 100, the amount of oGCD tools that you have is ridiculous. You won't even need half of them, never mind your lilies.

I'm saying there are a bunch of dungeons before LVL 90 that are also apart of the game, where you can't use liturgy.

Regardless, I reiterate, my point is that they are flattening down healers while people are asking for the opposite. Every change made is a trade off, and this one happened to trade off skill expression that I enjoyed.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Spoiler: You don't need those lilies.

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We don't. I'm just addressing to your point: "clipping feels bad". There was a workaround to that instead of sticking to "hurrdurr always burn all lilies out of combat."

Ofc, no more of that now. :p

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

We don't. I'm just addressing to your point: "clipping feels bad". There was a workaround to that instead of sticking to "hurrdurr always burn all lilies out of combat."

Ofc, no more of that now. :p

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Sacking your damage to cast redundant heals/DoTs is not a workaround. Even if you're clipping to heal, it makes more sense to just spam Holy.

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Originally Posted by undull1

SE hears the "players will optimise fun out of the game if you let them" and seemed to have concluded they must optimise the fun out for the players in their stead.

Now go!
Enjoy your tanks that are all 95% the same, lest the 0.001% of crazy raiders kick you for playing Paladin.

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Which funnily enough still hasn't been solved. They all play 95% the same but Gunbreaker and especially Dark Knight perform significantly better in both rDPS and aDPS than Warrior or Paladin, the single exception being M4S where Paladin's range helps with the heavy melee downtime, and after this patch the gap is going to be even wider.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Which funnily enough still hasn't been solved. They all play 95% the same but Gunbreaker and especially Dark Knight perform significantly better in both rDPS and aDPS than Warrior or Paladin, the single exception being M4S where Paladin's range helps with the heavy melee downtime, and after this patch the gap is going to be even wider.

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PLD and GNB had near identical damage output in M4S due to how well PLD handles the downtime.

The fix here is not to bring tank damage in line. The fix is to make GNB and DRK's damage rotations more interesting and complex, with more room for optimisation, so that the difference in damage output is warranted.

If we're going to make all the tank jobs 123 spend with identical damage output, we might as well just make 1 job called "tank" and WAR, PLD, GNB and DRK are just skins that you buy on Mogstation.

Mao sad. Changes to BLMs only reinforcings Mao conclusion that SE gonna go full steams ahead with DDR fights and simplifyings jobs. Mao feels for everyone else here whats also upset with changes. Mao hopings that people whats still playing FFXIV after Mao leaves will still has funs, even if game changing into something whats looking less and less like traditional fantasy role playing game and more and more like combats DDR. Is just nots for Mao though. On happy note, Mao been playings Dragon in WoW and Mao been havings blast! Mao gets to barf fires on everythings!

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

PLD and GNB had near identical damage output in M4S due to how well PLD handles the downtime.

The fix here is not to bring tank damage in line. The fix is to make GNB and DRK's damage rotations more interesting and complex, with more room for optimisation, so that the difference in damage output is warranted.

If we're going to make all the tank jobs 123 spend with identical damage output, we might as well just make 1 job called "tank" and WAR, PLD, GNB and DRK are just skins that you buy on Mogstation.

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Their answer was instead to simplify the burst phases for GNB and DRK in 7.0, and they've now simplified GNB's again.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Their answer was instead to simplify the burst phases for GNB and DRK in 7.0, and they've now simplified GNB's again.

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Yeah, if we could not do that; that would be cool.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Sacking your damage to cast redundant heals/DoTs is not a workaround. Even if you're clipping to heal, it makes more sense to just spam Holy.

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Using a lily to open up weave space was the entire point of the ShB lily system. It’s better to use a lily to open up weave space for things lily assize than it is to clip assize

Well at least it was before this change

Lily’s purpose is weave tools, well at least it was

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Using a lily to open up weave space was the entire point of the ShB lily system. It’s better to use a lily to open up weave space for things lily assize than it is to clip assize

Well at least it was before this change

Lily’s purpose is weave tools, well at least it was

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That might have been the intention but in practice it's a DPS loss to cast an Afflatus heal in place of Holy, given that you can dump lilies out of combat and still get your Afflatus Misery off on the next pack.

You also don't need to weave heals when you've already cast an Afflatus heal. I'm not going to cast Afflatus Solace so that I can weave Benediction, am I?

Why would you play a healer if you care THAT much about dps loss?

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

That might have been the intention but in practice it's a DPS loss to cast an Afflatus heal in place of Holy, given that you can dump lilies out of combat and still get your Afflatus Misery off on the next pack.

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An encounter with trash packs is usually long enough you need to dump at least one lily in uptime if not two. The distribution of uptime vs downtime in a normal dungeon run meant you couldn’t use only downtime lilys. The system was a coordinated use for uptime lilys and is also why it worked better before misery was DPS neutral in single target

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Why would you play a healer if you care THAT much about dps loss?

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All jobs are DPS jobs in XIV. The gap between a good and bad healer in XIV is near identical to the gap between a good and bad DPS player in terms of raw DPS.