Picto makes the game less fun

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The buff limit which came up in TOP has nothing to do with DOT’s and is entirely because they keep making every mechanic debuff vomit that places 5 debuffs on you when you have standard/espirit/kerechole/kerecha and all the other double buff clutter

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Aren't DoTs considered debuffs?

And agreed on the debuff vomit. They have to find a better way to seperate catergories from the de/buff bar. It just looks so cluttered in general.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Aren't DoTs considered debuffs?

And agreed on the debuff vomit. They have to find a better way to seperate catergories from the de/buff bar. It just looks so cluttered in general.

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Dots are debuffs on the boss, the buff limit concerns the player, the debuff limit concerns the boss

You are never hitting the debuff limit in anything besides BA or DRS, the TOP problem was the buff limit which doesn’t affect dots

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

"With the release of 7.0, however, we noticed that the DPS of the new job Pictomancer clearly stood out from the other classes. We could have nerfed Pictomancer before the raid, but since many people liked playing it so much, we decided to bring the DPS of the other classes into line with that of Pictomancer."
Interview it came from - https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...n_savage_tier/

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I got a lot of hate for pointing this out on Reddit, but I just don't understand how a job losing some potency here and there would make playing it less fun. I'm pretty sure barely anyone besides people who like chasing numbers on the funny website would even notice the changes. And the people who do like chasing numbers on the funny website should understand that the jobs being more or less comparable in damage output is a desirable state.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I got a lot of hate for pointing this out on Reddit, but I just don't understand how a job losing some potency here and there would make playing it less fun. I'm pretty sure barely anyone besides people who like chasing numbers on the funny website would even notice the changes. And the people who do like chasing numbers on the funny website should understand that the jobs being more or less comparable in damage output is a desirable state.

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It is a PR game nothing else

Yoshi think that in this way he will be justifiable.. and I don't think this is working

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

''You play whats fun is the reward'' is i think, to put it bluntly, the most retarded thing i've read all day. Because these jobs are competing for a slot.. A handicap is not a reward.
And since you're inadvertedly okay with the players playing more accessible jobs doing more damage than the others most of the time -by being easier and featuring less fail states. Why can't harder jobs do higher damage by a similar margin when mastered and those failstates are overcome?

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I feel the same way about "more complex jobs should put out more damage" because that take makes literally no sense. FFXIV is a game. The primary purpose of games is fun. The vast majority of the playerbase picks their main jobs based on enjoyment. Not everyone is a hardcore sweaty raider who picks their job for the tier based on statistics.

When I mained healer last expansion, I chose Astro over White Mage specifically because I found it more engaging and satisfying. A job being engaging is not a handicap, it's a feature. Because some people prefer chill jobs where they don't have to think about stuff too much, some people like optimising and learning how to execute their rotations while dodging mechanics. There are also people who enjoy both under different circumstances. This is why there are jobs of varying difficulties, at least within the DPS role.

The "competing for a slot" argument is also silly unless you're going for week 1 clears (which almost nobody is). PF is weird about it at times but I have very rarely heard of statics forcing people to play the current FotM job just because it hits slightly harder.

Doesn’t the entire ‘balancing around class difficulty’ idea fall apart when you realise class difficulty is almost entirely subjective?

Bard is by far the easiest class in the game for me. Well besides Scholar, but healers barely count as a real role anymore lol. And Summoner is like a whole other level of ‘easy’ nothing else can touch so not considering that either lol. Bard also one of the jobs I’ve played most frequently since 1.0, or I’d probably see the ‘difficulty’ completely differently. Personally I’d say Dancer is even harder because you’ve got so much ‘jank’ to deal with through Flourish transforming Standard Step into Finishing Move but not resetting the Step, meaning you have to either drift step’s cool-down or drift Finishing Move. Also Tilana overcapping can be a pain lol. To me Bard is literally just ‘doot doot press shining buttons here’s some giant potency attacks and a whole bunch of nothing in-between, you win’ lol

Naturally there are (few) exceptions to this such as Summoner being objectively on the extreme end of ‘easy’, but Black Mage (arguably) at the extreme end of ‘difficult’. But even then, whether or not Black Mage is truly ‘difficult’ is an entirely subjective thing; is it objective, or simply community perception?

Really the only thing that’s objectively true about ‘class difficulty’ in my opinion is that Summoner is the easiest by such a ridiculous degree that it’s practically scientifically proven at this point lol. But personally I think the whole ‘difficulty = strength’ idea the devs are going for is just a huge dead end they’re gonna have to walk back from eventually (or they’ll hit the wall lol)

This depends on the engagement. Summoner’s original pet system was very poorly handled and jank and necessitated engagement. Gunbreaker continuation is to this day super clunky because of how it really restrains the classes ability to position the boss in more demanding encounters like M1s and M2s.

Features can absolutely be bad, and not well thought out. Just because something is engaging doesn’t mean it’s good.

I think this quote nicely outlines the core problem in FFXIV's design philosophy:

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'With the release of 7.0, however, we noticed that the DPS of the new job Pictomancer clearly stood out from the other classes. We could have nerfed Pictomancer before the raid, but since many people liked playing it so much, we decided to bring the DPS of the other classes into line with that of Pictomancer.'

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Reactionary flat potency buffs can only solve so much. PCT's burst is probably the biggest problem from a balance perspective. BLM has to catch up to PCT between burst windows. If you add in downtime, the balance will always tip in favour of PCT.

The solution to balancing burst historically was making it resource-gated vs. timer-gated. You need to land hits to build resources. PCT ignores this by being able to charge motifs both outside combat as well as during downtime. Unless you change how motifs work, you'll never be able to balance PCT (more Crit/DH caps on high potency actions may be required as well).

They also went overboard on the utility as well, probably because they knew the job was going head to head with BLM. Five seconds of sprint on a 20s recast gap closer is just absurd (Aetherial Shift, which is the same effect without the sprint, is on 60s). Tempera Coat/Grassa likewise is surprisingly strong utility for a high damage caster. Even RDM's Magick Barrier is restricted to magical damage only. None of these are going to be rebalanced through upward potency buffs.

I think until SE changes that design philosophy, we're going to see some jobs being underpowered across entire expansions. Which is unfortunate, because the entire point of having so many jobs is to give players choice around playstyle.

I don't think you should really care if another job outperforms your main when every job can still clear all content in the game without a problem.
Are you having fun? Yes? Good. Just keep playing your job you have fun with.
Should BLM be doing more damage? Yes, I agree. But if I mained BLM I don't think I'd drop it just because another job currently out-damages it. If people are excluding you from parties because you play BLM instead of PCT then their party wasn't worth joining to begin with

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I got a lot of hate for pointing this out on Reddit, but I just don't understand how a job losing some potency here and there would make playing it less fun. I'm pretty sure barely anyone besides people who like chasing numbers on the funny website would even notice the changes.

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Nah it would look bad, they reworked Viper and then had to nerf Picto on an expansion where most people hated the story. This would be something to add to that, "CBU3 has fallen off Dawntrail's story is the worst and look they can't even design new jobs well!"
It would of had this effect for sure. I think DT is the first time in awhile when we had this many jobs getting miniature reworks straight after launch. EW had Kaiten and PLD rework, DT had BLM, MNK, VPR and SAM reworked and in SAMs and MNKs case they reworked it twice. If on top of all of that PCT got nerfed people would of called this out way earlier and heavier than they are now.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

It would of had this effect for sure. I think DT is the first time in awhile when we had this many jobs getting miniature reworks straight after launch. EW had Kaiten and PLD rework, DT had BLM, MNK, VPR and SAM reworked and in SAMs and MNKs case they reworked it twice. If on top of all of that PCT got nerfed people would of called this out way earlier and heavier than they are now.

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It's interesting what passes for a "mini rework" in the relatively static context of FFXIV. I would call Astro losing their old cards a mini rework comparing other MMORPGs, and the only actual rework the game ever had was Summoner. As in, the class was essentialy hollowed out and some of the textual bits and visual f/x stitched together into something new.

But that only highlights how much too little they are willing to work on job designs, IMO. Stuff like this should be happening every .x-patch. Other games do that, they rip out entire mechanisms repeatedly, partiually because it's extremely difficult to design stuff in a vacuum. It's easier to change it, then change it back or do a third option when it doesn't work out!

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Originally Posted by Carighan

It's interesting what passes for a "mini rework" in the relatively static context of FFXIV. I would call Astro losing their old cards a mini rework comparing other MMORPGs, and the only actual rework the game ever had was Summoner. As in, the class was essentialy hollowed out and some of the textual bits and visual f/x stitched together into something new.

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What I personally constitute as a rework in XIV is removing a consistent feature from a job that's been around for a while. For example bard songs going from draining MP into CDs was a rework, AST cards no longer being RNG was a rework. When I say mini rework for SAM and MNK it was removing the timers on MNK and SAM's Tsubame-gaeshi changes. MNK/SAM in EW and DT play very similar so I wouldn't consider that a full rework. A rework would be like how monk from SHB to EW changed or if SAM had it's Iaijutsu system replaced with a different system.
I also disagree about SMN being the only job with a full rework, considering MCH in HW and SB play nothing like modern MCH. It's just the most egregious example because SMN went from high difficulty to no difficulty.

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Originally Posted by AddictedToWitches

Should BLM be doing more damage? Yes, I agree. But if I mained BLM I don't think I'd drop it just because another job currently out-damages it. If people are excluding you from parties because you play BLM instead of PCT then their party wasn't worth joining to begin with

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On a personal level, sure. If you're really passionate about a particular game aesthetic, then play the job that you want to play, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

On a game design level, no. You can excuse every failure in game balance with that reasoning.

PCT cannot be balanced relative to BLM because there are significant differences in their damage profiles. PCT has massive burst. BLM does not. If you design them to have equivalent DPS on a full uptime fight, PCT will pull well ahead on shorter fights as well as fights with intermissions.

I think motifs are the key to this if the devs want to resolve this within the expansion. It's very possible that they won't change anything because they want PCT to be dominant this expansion, but I want the devs to be upfront with the playerbase about their intentions so that players don't have false hopes.

The other issue is that PCT has flat out better utility, to the point where it creates an existential crisis for supposedly 'support-oriented' DPS jobs like the raise casters and physical ranged. There's no way that this job was released in such an unbalanced state by accident.

How does a single 10% shield create a crisis for support oriented DPS jobs. Raise and the phys ranged utility is far far better than tempra grassa. Hell tempra grassa is barely better than mantra or crest as it is

Being worried motifs push PCT’s damage too high in a downtime heavy fight is a valid concern, PCT’s utility dominating the support DPS option is not

PCT has a ton of utility on offer. It has a 30y raidwide heal, an additional raidwide mitigation that works on all damage types (unlike Magick Barrier, which is magic damage only and on a longer effective recast, and unlike both DRK and GNB's job specific raidwide mitigations), and has the most powerful mobility tool in the game. Smudge is not only a 15y dash on a 20s recast, but it also comes with 5 seconds of sprint (for a total of 25 seconds of sprint every minute). The devs clearly knew this was going to be a powerful effect, because when they released Aetherial Shift this expansion it got a 60s recast stuck to it even without incorporating any sprint buff. In contrast to BLM where your movements have to be planned out in advance through AM and BtL, Smudge lets you react on the fly. That makes it much more progression friendly.

That's a lot of utility to have on a 'damage caster'. What you're really losing out on is raise. But as a workaround, chances are you're just going to prog on a raise caster since they use the same gearset, and then swap off onto PCT once you need to clear the DPS check. It makes you question why other jobs are forced to trade off 'damage for utility' when PCT is generally just better at both.

phys ranged utility kek

I think you just answered your own problem there, PCT has utility (though it’s a bit hard to call a self movement tool utility. Expedient would be better classed as utility in terms of movement buffs) but it’s really only competing against BLM who has no utility at all (comparison to aetherial shift is near pointless as healers occupy a different niche and WHM is not wanting for movement options at all

PCT’s utility is relatively on par with the “utility” melee and far behind the 5 actual “utility” DPS

Is it a bit strong that the strongest rDPS class also has “some” utility. Arguably yes, but that’s more a problem with PCT’s damage, not its utility being overpowered. Plus I genuinely think it’s stupid that utility bringing classes are never really allowed to be top DPS, it should be totally fine for them to compete with top DPS

PCT’s balance problems more centre on it just being better than BLM in every category, but it isn’t out of line with the melees

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

How does a single 10% shield create a crisis for support oriented DPS jobs. Raise and the phys ranged utility is far far better than tempra grassa. Hell tempra grassa is barely better than mantra or crest as it is

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Melees
They have Feint and personals. Mantra is very, very good but useless on its own.
Crest on paper and bump RPR's healing by a lot but in practice it most often comes after a raidwide and a long time with no damage.
Regen is massively overrated as it often runs when no heal is needed. Arcane crest by itself is 30% of RPR's healing and 30 to 50% is often overheal.

Pictomancer,
Yet despite a Reaper having access to Bloodbath, Second Wind, Arcane Crest and Feint, Pictomancer is able to outheal magical fight with only a Tempera, addle and Star Prism.
Reducing damage is also much more valued than healing damage and shields have the neat effect to not be impacted by the mitigation calculation.

It steps on the SMN/RDM territory, while BLM only had a personal, SMN has personals+healing, RDM Magick Barrier.
But Picto swoops in with 2 raidwide mitigations, the best movement tool of the game while not being taxed like RDM.

More Raidwide mitigation is something rare only PLD and MCH got and made them shine despite those jobs being on the lower end damage wise.
But Pictomancer swoops in and evade the tax. In TOP, it's by default the best caster thanks to all the downtime that allows it to prepare the sketch, its mitigation and the fact ressing is pointless in 3/4 of the fight yet SMN/RDM pays the tax.

You can clearly understand why other casters (and phys ranged by extension) feels cheated, Pictomancer has too much strengths for no downsides, not only it compete for a caster spot but it can also compete for a melee spot, something rarely seen before.
You can either buff the other caster utility/damage or nerf Pictomancer utility/damage.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Melees
They have Feint and personals. Mantra is very, very good but useless on its own.
Crest on paper and bump RPR's healing by a lot but in practice it most often comes after a raidwide and a long time with no damage.
Regen is massively overrated as it often runs when no heal is needed. Arcane crest by itself is 30% of RPR's healing and 30 to 50% is often overheal.

Pictomancer,
Yet despite a Reaper having access to Bloodbath, Second Wind, Arcane Crest and Feint, Pictomancer is able to outheal magical fight with only a Tempera, addle and Star Prism.
Reducing damage is also much more valued than healing damage and shields have the neat effect to not be impacted by the mitigation calculation.

It steps on the SMN/RDM territory, while BLM only had a personal, SMN has personals+healing, RDM Magick Barrier.
But Picto swoops in with 2 raidwide mitigations, the best movement tool of the game while not being taxed like RDM.

More Raidwide mitigation is something rare only PLD and MCH got and made them shine despite those jobs being on the lower end damage wise.
But Pictomancer swoops in and evade the tax. In TOP, it's by default the best caster thanks to all the downtime that allows it to prepare the sketch, its mitigation and the fact ressing is pointless in 3/4 of the fight yet SMN/RDM pays the tax.

You can clearly understand why other casters (and phys ranged by extension) feels cheated, Pictomancer has too much strengths for no downsides.
You can either buff the other caster utility/damage or nerf Pictomancer utility/damage.

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You can’t just ignore that RDM and SMN both have raise, that is utility that far exceeds any other DPS by a wide wide margin. Phys ranged mitigation is stronger by 5% and they all also have a a secondary tool (and dancer has a third)

You also pointed out that PCT outheals melee in a magic heavy fight………because melee outheal it in a physical heavy fight. That’s not imbalance, that’s having different strengths and weaknesses

Downtime strengths is not utility and I fully agree PCT is concerningly strong in that category.

PCT needs to be nerfed somewhere (wow shocker I called for nerfs for a job I like, maybe you should try that sometime) but lyths comment that it’s destroying objectively superior utility from the support jobs is just excessive and pointless. Star prisms heal can go, that’s fine, I’ve already suggested ways to nerf PCT’s burst without flat nerfs to its potency but its utility is not overpowered

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You can’t just ignore that RDM and SMN both have raise, that is utility that far exceeds any other DPS by a wide wide margin. Phys ranged mitigation is stronger by 5% and they all also have a a secondary tool (and dancer has a third)

You also pointed out that PCT outheals melee in a magic heavy fight………because melee outheal it in a physical heavy fight. That’s not imbalance, that’s having different strengths and weaknesses

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And I've, along others, pointed out why Res is overrated. It's only purpose is to recover catastrophic situation or to cheese TOP with no healers. It's cool but niche and undeserving of a tax.
I mentionned that PCT outheals melees in a magic fight, that's true, but how does it perform in physical encounter? Well would you look at that, It's competing with melees.

I'm not for nerfs, even on the utility side I don't think it's worth nerfing a job and won't make it funnier to the other jobs. Star Prism is similar to RPR or SMN, strong heals but very limited and unflexible.
Thought, Pictomancer needs a nerf on its damage, as CBU3 mentionned they intended for the job to be a "low melee" but it's currently dominating all DPS. Even by SQEX's standards it's heavily unbalanced.

You can also keep personal attacks to yourself, they're pointless other than being petty.
I won't be dealing with your fallacies.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

And I've, along others, pointed out why Res is overrated. It's only purpose is to recover catastrophic situation or to cheese TOP with no healers. It's cool but niche and undeserving of a tax.
I mentionned that PCT outheals melees in a magic fight, that's true, but how does it perform in physical encounter? Well would you look at that, It's competing with melees.

I'm not for nerfs, even on the utility side I don't think it's worth nerfing a job and won't make it funnier to the other jobs. Star Prism is similar to RPR or SMN, strong heals but very limited and unflexible.
Thought, Pictomancer needs a nerf on its damage, as CBU3 mentionned they intended for the job to be a "low melee" but it's currently dominating all DPS. Even by SQEX's standards it's heavily unbalanced.

You can also keep personal attacks to yourself, they're pointless other than being petty.
I won't be dealing with your fallacies.

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“I’m not for nerfs but PCT needs a nerf”

“Keep your personal attacks to yourself”

The literal complete lack of a consistent logical system here is actually astounding. You literally just said you don’t support nerfs but you also think PCT needs a nerf based on a completely made up line that square never said, all they said was it was supposed to compete with BLM as a “damage caster”

I’m sorry but that just sounds like “I’m fine with nerfs if it’s a job I don’t care about”

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Pictomancer,
Yet despite a Reaper having access to Bloodbath, Second Wind, Arcane Crest and Feint, Pictomancer is able to outheal magical fight with only a Tempera, addle and Star Prism.
Reducing damage is also much more valued than healing damage and shields have the neat effect to not be impacted by the mitigation calculation.

It steps on the SMN/RDM territory, while BLM only had a personal, SMN has personals+healing, RDM Magick Barrier.
But Picto swoops in with 2 raidwide mitigations,

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Why are you acting like only Pictomancer can use Addle?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“I’m not for nerfs but PCT needs a nerf”

I’m sorry but that just sounds like “I’m fine with nerfs if it’s a job I don’t care about”

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This is what I said, yes.
I'm not for nerfing PCT utility.
I'm for nerfing PCT damage as it doesn't fit SQEX's goal.
Do I need to be clearer?

As for your second remark, are we already going into a strawman?

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

Why are you acting like only Pictomancer can use Addle?

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I'm not, you can simply remove it from the equation since all casters have it, I just felt it was redundant to mention that SMN, RDM and BLM have addle, it's a role action after all.
You can just remove it from the equation of caster mitigation since they all have it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

PCT’s balance problems more centre on it just being better than BLM in every category, but it isn’t out of line with the melees

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Leaving BLM and the other casters aside for a second, PCT is higher or topping rDPS, aDPS, nDPS and cDPS-wise than the majority of melees.

If it has high rDPS, it shouldn't be easily beating a melee like RPR, who is more selfish, in aDPS or being equal in nDPS yet it does at different percentiles and fights.

If it has high aDPS/nDPS, it shouldn't be above NIN/DRG, melees with lower personal damage but higher rDPS. PCT is usually the first job after the buffless ones in the aDPS charts and is somehow even above VPR and BLM in some high percentiles in M1S.

As for BLM, it still beats PCT in aDPS and nDPS, as it should. The main issue is perhaps the fact that BLM cannot abuse buffs as well as SAM or VPR so its aDPS is lower than it should.

We can argue that the difference is some hundreds of DPS and not that relevant but PCT is leading or very high in every single metric at several percentiles.

Things are more balanced now after the buffs but the job remains very strong regardless, and we haven't even seen its full potential due to the lack of downtime in this tier besides M4S.

It doesn't matter if PCT leads one or two metrics but leading several is a symptom that it is a bit out of line. Would we not think the same if VPR was topping all metrics as it was happening some weeks ago? PCT has been consistent in its strength throughout the expansion and now the latest Savage tier, with or without BiS.

However, I do agree that forcing motifs to have a target to be cast is not a solution. It'd break the job. Imagine having to hard cast motifs after a period of 30s downtime for 30~ seconds of uptime. The PCT would hardly be able to start doing anything before the next downtime phase began. Just moving damage from burst into filler so full uptime damage remains the same but downtime gains are toned down would be the best solution.

Mao just chiming in here as BLMs. Mao nots concerned so much abouts state of PCTs. Mao more concerned abouts Devs wrecking EW BLMs. Mao wantings BLMs to be fixed, not PCTs to be dragged down to BLMs. Is make no sense to Mao to destroy two jobs rather than fix one whats been wrecked.

There is definitely something that needs to change about PCT but I’m still not entirely sure what it is

Right now PCT has 3 particular strengths

-highest rDPS and a better potential to scale its rDPS than most of the jobs that are within its aDPS range given its relatively large 5% buff over smaller buffs like arcane circle or searing light
-strongest utility of the 8 “high damage dealers” with its closest competitors being MNK and RPR (however I still maintain my original point in this thread that PCT is not world endingly overpowered in utility given its utility is weaker than all 5 support DPS by a pretty wide margin, its closest competitor would probably be BRD
-really strong downtime potential to shoot it even higher

PCT needs to give somewhere or if they truly do think they can fix PCT by buffing literally every other job then they need to actually buff the jobs equally because the existing 7.05 buffs excessively benefitted the melee and BLM over the support DPS (though to be fair BLM desperately needed it) which just widened the gap between the two for no obvious reason given this was supposed to be a flat set of buffs as to rebalance PCT without nerfing it

However I strongly do not believe actually changing any of PCT’s mechanical design is the answer here. Motifs should continue to be castable whenever and be instant outside of combat. From this there is 3 main ways you can fix PCT

1) flat nerf its potencies. If you do it this way it literally doesn’t matter what you really nerf because the feel of the job isn’t changing, however it would likely be best to avoid nerfing hammer or reversed aetherhue as ignoring normal aetherhue of the 4 remaining components (creature, hammer, starry and reversed) reversed and hammer have the lowest PPS
2) move potency from the motifs to the aetherhue combo. This reduces the effect the motifs have as they no longer contain so much potency. This doesn’t really hurt it in full uptime fights except for a slight loss in how strongly it’ll scale with buffs over the course of the expansion but it will nerf how much downtime benefits it
3) reduce the potential scaling of its strongest attacks within in its burst window by forcing them to crit reducing how much PCT benefits from lucky crit fishing in its starry muse window

Whichever way you think is the best way to fix it doing something like actually changing the way motifs function such as requiring a target to cast really shouldn’t be in consideration as that changes the entire design and interaction of PCT and we know how well that went for VPR

Stacking potency to single moves has been a mistake in general. This started in SB i believe? But has been getting exponentially worse since timers started aligning in ShB.

Redistributing motif damage couldve avoided nerf tantrums and other balance issues they caused by just buffing.

Picto recieves nerf ends up being trash community wonders why it recieved nerfs lol

"IN ADDITION to providing buffs to the party."

I must be missing something with this being brought up so much. Is not like a raid buff is an "extra"... it's still part of a job's rDPS budget. In fact - in theory - it's a disadvantage if you compare to BLM, because if the party as a whole is doing poorly, that outsourced dps will suffer.

Just knock Starry Muse buff down to 3% from 5% if it still needs nerfs. The mechanics that PCT gains from the buff should be more important than raid buff itself.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Hello! I've decided to log in and comment specifically on false info

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I believe that you have not understood what I was trying to write or that I didn't perhaps explain myself well enough. Either way, I'll try to reply to your points as best as possible.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

First, nDPS and cDPS do not matter when comparing jobs against other jobs.

nDPS is your DPS not including ANY buffs outside of your own. It's ONLY useful for comparing performance to other players on the same job. Please note, that the current highest nDPS is... VIPER! Followed by... BLACK MAGE! Picto is 5th for nDPS at 95th percentile! So you're blatantly wrong here.

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While you're right in the sense that nDPS is usually mostly relevant when comparing performance to other players without taking buffs into account, it can still be a useful metric to understand specific differences between jobs. For example, if we posit that RPR is a job in theory meant to have higher personal damage than other buffing jobs due to having a weaker 3% buff, then ideally its personal damage (nDPS in this case) should be higher than that of a job with a 5% buff such as PCT.

However, since PCT tends to have higher aDPS than RPR, we can then use the nDPS/aDPS comparison to realize that despite having lower personal damage when not taking buffs into account (nDPS), PCT is able to put more potency into buffs, as several fights of the tier at different percentiles attest.

For the sake of completeness, nDPS also equals rDPS for non-buffing jobs such as SAM, VPR or BLM, just like cDPS equals aDPS. The relevance of the differences of each of the four metrics is clearer for jobs that provide buffs than those that don't.

Therefore, it is logical that it's the buffless or "selfish" jobs leading the nDPS charts, as they should. Do note that the sentence of mine that you are quoting explicitly says that PCT is higher than the majority of melees at the different metrics, meaning that it's higher rDPS-wise than all of them but it obviously won't be higher aDPS-wise than SAM, VPR or BLM. In that sense, I do further clarify later on that PCT is right after these jobs in the aDPS charts, meaning that it's above MNK, RPR, DRG and NIN.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

cDPS is your rDPS without single target padding. Also useless compared to rDPS and aDPS. It's basically aDPS without single target buffs applied. Because f*** you, Dancer. It does not allow us to draw conclusions for balance or game health.

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As explained in their webpage,

"cDPS stands for "Combined DPS" and is measuring how much damage you've done with single target padding removed and adding how much your damage you've given to others with your buffs. [...] cDPS allows you compare how well you and your raid played into burst windows and AOE buffs. It's a good way to look at job balance between each other, and seeing which jobs have strong buffs while also providing good damage during other job's AOE buff windows."

cDPS is basically a "combination" of rDPS and aDPS and does have the ability to help us understand balance between jobs. The main caveat is that all metrics (except nDPS) are affected by party composition and, while cDPS is the one affected the most, so is aDPS.

Like rDPS, cDPS does include the single target buffs from AST and DNC but only in the "rDPS portion" for those two jobs. It is actually aDPS that does not include them for the jobs receiving the buffs.

In essence, cDPS can be useful to analyze overall job balance, particularly if party compositions are similar.

No metric is perfect. Some jobs will favor rDPS while others will favor aDPS. This is why I think that taking them all into account is the best approach when discussing job balance. As imperfect as it can be, this is the data we have to work with because we have no access to SE's internal numbers.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Picto leads in 1 metric that matters, by under a 3 digit rDPS difference, and a less than 3% difference between it and the worst Melee. Far from a balance issue and far from egregious.

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I don't believe that using a single fight in a Savage tier comprised of four can paint an overall picture of job balance because different fights may favor one job or another due to different reasons such as difficulty to keep uptime or hold resources for burst.

Regardless, my argument is not that PCT should be nerfed or that it's entirely unbalanced. In fact, in a previous post I conclude that the balance of this tier is mostly fine (besides MCH). My point is that PCT is still quite strong at several areas despite the buffs most other jobs got.

As I already said, we could argue that the differences are small enough not to matter, and that would be just fine, but I still believe that if PCT is to have higher aDPS than jobs with less personal damage such as NIN, then its rDPS should be a bit lower than theirs. I don't think it's healthy for game balance to repeat situations such as SAM in ShB or BLM in the later parts of EW. On the other hand, it could be argued that as long as any job can clear the content, these difference don't matter too much.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

BLM can ABSOLUTELY abuse buffs

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Originally Posted by Aco505

As for BLM, it still beats PCT in aDPS and nDPS, as it should. The main issue is perhaps the fact that BLM cannot abuse buffs as well as SAM or VPR so its aDPS is lower than it should.

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Where does it say that BLM cannot? What I'm saying is that its capacity to abuse buffs is lower than that of SAM and VPR, which may not help the job in the landscape of putting the maximum amount of damage in the 2-minute burst windows, particularly if BLM has to use those resources for movement.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Sure, it gains a lot, but so does anything else that lets their CDs refresh. Because literally every job got a "you can now do this high potency follow up!" for most of their CDs, we'll need to wait to see how FRU shakes out.

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PCT is balanced around doing no damage for a specific amount of seconds while casting motifs. Any amount of downtime that reduces this no-damage period during uptime phases will hugely benefit the job. Yes, other jobs can recharge their CDs such as NIN's mudras but those are not balanced around doing zero damage for specific periods like PCT is.

Considering how common downtime tends to be in high end duties, this specific quirk of PCT is quite beneficial to the job because it further increases its damage potential. I do agree that we will know for sure when FRU is released.


In conclusion, I don't think PCT should be nerfed. I do believe it could be adjusted by moving some damage from burst into filler to avoid the potential balance problems in Ultimates or other relevant content when downtime is involved while keeping the overall full uptime damage the same. Additionally, I don't think the job should lose its utility or defensive capabilities either. If anything, what other jobs have should be reevaluated without falling into the homogenization pitfall.

PCT should be balanced within the "more damage group" just like BLM. I don't think we disagree in this particular point. But I still think the job excels in several areas compared to others, as I have already explained.

I will say though that I am here to provide feedback and discuss the state of the game. I have done so in a polite way and I don't think I have been hyperbolic in my posts. If you don't like or disagree with something that I write, I'd appreciate if you returned the gesture and engaged in fruitful discussion instead of coming guns blazing accusing others of being ignorant. If anything, it is your own post that contains misconceptions and hyperbole at times.

Just so that it's clear and we don't waste each other's time, I will refrain from replying again to a post with a similar tone as your first one.

One of the downsides of trying to condense someone's performance down into a single number is that you lose information in the process. Let me give you an example as illustration:

https://i.imgur.com/iSgcjC8.png

If you look at the damage profiles for PCT, it's extremely burst orientated. I'm sure you know this intuitively, even when you look at the max damage on individual attacks like Star Prism or Mog/Madeen. You can land upwards of 200k on a single hit. Xenoglossy pales in comparison to that. The end result is that PCT ends up concentrating nearly all of its outgoing damage into its two minute bursts, while BLM has to catch up between bursts by simply being extremely consistent.

As was said earlier, the problem with these two extremes is that you just can't balance them against each other. The extent of PCT's advantage is going to vary based on fight duration, presence of downtime, and whether you end on a two minute window. Crit/DH can produce a large degree of variability in performance as well. I think trying to rebalance these jobs without looking at the damage profiles is meaningless, simply because they are designed so differently. Flat nerfs or buffs in isolation are not a solution, simply because you're going to end up with PCT either being overpowered or underpowered.

I don't think that it's at all acceptable to 'just wait and see what happens in FRU.' The problem that I have with balance decisions in this game is that they're always completely reactionary. Just look at the data that's out there for the more recent legacy Ultimates and it becomes fairly obvious where we're headed with this. You don't need PCT to completely dominate FRU to nerf it into oblivion for 7.2. For once, I'd like to see some proactive design choices where we avoid reactionary balance swings into extremes.

The solution is to directly address PCT's burst profile such that it becomes more compatible with the game design. That may mean utilising more Crit/DH effects to avoid massive damage variance on PCT's biggest attacks. That may mean shifting some of that burst potency off on to the job's base rotation. That may mean putting constraints on motifs such that they always require a target to use, and such that you can't load them up out of combat.

Alternatively, you'd have to revise every other job to have even more of an extreme burst focus within two minute buffs (if you could imagine that to be possible), and let everyone else also charge up their gauge during downtime/out of combat. Probably makes more sense just to rein back PCT's burst a bit, yeah?

On the subject of utility, I think you can pretend that any form of utility is 'optional'. They're all situational in their use, after all. RDM and SMN may never use raise once in a run, but their DPS is still docked significantly simply for having access to it. I think it's only fair for PCT's damage output to reflect its access to a number of very valuable utility effects.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao just chiming in here as BLMs.

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I think it comes down to ensuring that every job provides some unique value, at the end of the day. The problem is when you design a job to be just better in all areas, at which point it becomes a direct upgrade. That's fine if you're willing to swap to the most powerful job in a given role, but less so if you're passionate about a particular job aesthetic.

Eventually, you start losing players because there's a community perception 'If you want to play tank, then you play WAR,' or 'If you want to play caster, then you play PCT' and so on. It defeats the point of having lots of jobs. Sometimes the only thing keeping someone from playing a certain role is the fact that the right aesthetic just hasn't been released yet.

To get an idea of the current situation, in the top 50 fastest clears, PCT is represented in 86.5-94.1% of groups, and BLM is represented in only 2.0-7.7% of groups. The next highest represented job after PCT is BRD, with 60-72% representation.

Rebalancing PCT is unavoidable, given the current state of affairs. But I expect to see a 'seesaw' balance between BLM and PCT for the foreseeable future as long as SE only balances with reactionary flat buffs (which is the only thing that they seem to ever do). To avoid that, I would much rather that they look at the underlying reasons behind the balance problems in their relative burst profiles and address those issues directly. If you know that you have to upset part of the player base, just do it once and fix the issue once and for all. FoTM balance just alienates players in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think it comes down to ensuring that every job provides some unique value, at the end of the day. The problem is when you design a job to be just better in all areas, at which point it becomes a direct upgrade. That's fine if you're willing to swap to the most powerful job in a given role, but less so if you're passionate about a particular job aesthetic.

Eventually, you start losing players because there's a community perception 'If you want to play tank, then you play WAR,' or 'If you want to play caster, then you play PCT' and so on. It defeats the point of having lots of jobs. Sometimes the only thing keeping someone from playing a certain role is the fact that the right aesthetic just hasn't been released yet.

To get an idea of the current situation, in the top 50 fastest clears, PCT is represented in 86.5-94.1% of groups, and BLM is represented in only 2.0-7.7% of groups. The next highest represented job after PCT is BRD, with 60-72% representation.

Rebalancing PCT is unavoidable, given the current state of affairs. But I expect to see a 'seesaw' balance between BLM and PCT for the foreseeable future as long as SE only balances with reactionary flat buffs (which is the only thing that they seem to ever do). To avoid that, I would much rather that they look at the underlying reasons behind the balance problems in their relative burst profiles and address those issues directly. If you know that you have to upset part of the player base, just do it once and fix the issue once and for all. FoTM balance just alienates players in the long run.

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Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

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It is true Mao it is true

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you look at the damage profiles for PCT, it's extremely burst orientated. [...] The end result is that PCT ends up concentrating nearly all of its outgoing damage into its two minute bursts, while BLM has to catch up between bursts by simply being extremely consistent.

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Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

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Originally Posted by Quuoooote

Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

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I have better idea.

After Ley Lines cast you can cast despair and flare star instant and without mana cost. Amplifier bring you 3 stacks instead of 1, so you can spam more xeno during burst window.

Oh and bring 5% mitigation to the party whole Ley Lines duration so BLM can have more utility.

I bloody love Picto

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

The "competing for a slot" argument is also silly unless you're going for week 1 clears (which almost nobody is). PF is weird about it at times but I have very rarely heard of statics forcing people to play the current FotM job just because it hits slightly harder.

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I don't find it particularly ''fun'' to have my choice in jobs invalidated by one that's the easiest to play in the entire game.
And you can only pick one job for weeks on end because of weekly loot restrictions. So yes, they ARE competing for a slot.
You have to commit to a job because otherwise you fall behind.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

This is what I said, yes.
I'm not for nerfing PCT utility.
I'm for nerfing PCT damage as it doesn't fit SQEX's goal.
Do I need to be clearer?

As for your second remark, are we already going into a strawman?




I'm not, you can simply remove it from the equation since all casters have it, I just felt it was redundant to mention that SMN, RDM and BLM have addle, it's a role action after all.
You can just remove it from the equation of caster mitigation since they all have it.

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And where should PCT fall in the DPS lineup? It has similar utility to MNK and RPR.

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Originally Posted by Quuoooote

Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

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Why hello, Mr. Enix. Longstanding fan of your work, especially Dragon Quest VII. I can see all the turn-based gameplay inspiration positively oozing from your PCT design. I know that you don't want to give away all of your secrets in one go, but you left out some of the most exciting changes:

• Amplifier is now a 3s cast spell with no recast that can be used instantly outside of combat.
• Foul/Xenoglossy have been merged into a single action (Kupoglossy) that now hits multiple targets for 300k damage every 120s.
• Leylines reduces spell cast times using a charge system instead of a set timer to improve accessibility. It also grants the effect Flarestruck.
• Flare Star is now instant cast and hits multiple targets for 300k damage, while healing everyone in a 30y radius.
• Scathe is replaced by a one button mallet combo that is guaranteed to Crit/DH.
• Spells no longer cost MP.
• BLM now has a one button Ice combo. Paradox converts your Ice combo into a one button Fire combo. All spell cast times have been reduced to 1.5s. Completing your combos grants you you either stacks of Umbral Thunderhead or Astral Thunderhead.
• None of this matters because all of your damage is done using instant casts at the two minute mark anyways, to allow you time to brew a cup of coffee in-between the relevant bits. The filler rotation functions like the SFX command, in homage to FFIX.
• BLM now has Sprint as a permanent trait. AM has been replaced with Shukuchi on a 20s recast.
• Getting hit with Manafont up activates the trait Manafont Grassa, which grants the effect Shake it Off to all teammates within 30y.

For the longest time, EW SMN mains dreamed of being able outperform BLM players in the caster slot. With the release of PCT in Dawntrail, you finally gave them the job they needed to achieve this. Now with these potential BLM changes, not only will they be able to surpass BLM, they can conceivably claim to be BLM players as well.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

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Don't be sad Mao. Just burninate the bad guys.