Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

First of all, you're looking at such a minor subset of the community doing healerless clears, when that's not what DF and PF do as standard. Why isn't it a problem that all DPS basically can't clear then if this is such an issue? Why isn't it more celebrated that there's an all healer can clear ARR thing if that's the case? Why is it that in order to even do a healerless clear, we need specific setups of certain tanks and dps to basically pseudo mimic healers as a fun challenge which as I've set, is a very minor subset of the community. You'd have some grounds if it was the standard in all parties commonly, just like PLD and MNK in HW were utterly doomed.

Secondly, spare me the rhetoric. It's a question that hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, because if were going by SE's design as is, they'd more than likely buff the damage of healers rather than swap them, but while tanks have an actual rotation and healers don't, that's part of why the rotation is there. Would it be great for healers to have more buttons? Sure, that would be a much better thing to bring up than trying to nerf people which SE very rarely do, and usually it's something very minor anyway, hello RPR's Arcane Crest.

Nothing good comes with trying to screw over other jobs as such. Blame SE for not making healing as fun as it could be, but don't ruin other peoples fun. If you don't like healers not being included in very super specific instances, join a party that...likes having healers? Which is the majority of the playerbase?

You can try to tell me all you want that tanks are ruining healers fun, I can disagree with how many healers prefer having me around over your local DRK. If you wanna keep asking that question though then I guess keep going? Time better used elsewhere really, but if you think you'll get further than the people in EW who tried to beg for self sustain nerfs for a long time, look how it is in DT and ask if maybe you should pursue another avenue instead of something that goes counter to SE's design.

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I was on your side of the fence for a long time but comments from Snow did get me thinking, why is it fair that sidelining healers in speed runs not for the sake of a challenge because it was not exactly harder the group made a bunch mistakes and had multiple deaths and still had a decent time in terms of speed killing with mistakes and deaths mind you. That is really weird design when you think about it. It is certainly getting the point that what is enjoyable for us, may not be best for the overall game.

I would not like it if my ENTIRE preferred ROLE was sidelined even in small subset because it is legit quicker to cut me out EVEN with MISTAKES. I would be kind of salty. Even if they brought the healer damage up even if it matched tanks in practice, it probably would still be a net gain to not take a healer cause their update would not be as high as tanks if tanks mit and sustain was still enough to meet the healing requirements in conjunction with others sustain.

As stated it really did not seem like it was a challenge per-se because it was cleared with deaths and mistakes but was still a fast clear. Sure healers are needed for majority of groups that is fine, but even so when the exclusion of an entire role proves to be quicker than some standard comps. At that point you got a design problem that is being created by a lack of something or something just being too strong, or both.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I was on your side of the fence for a long time but comments from Snow did get me thinking, why is it fair that sidelining healers in speed runs not for the sake of a challenge because it was not exactly harder the group made a bunch mistakes and had multiple deaths

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Speedruns are speedruns, people will do crazy things to achieve them. Just remember the #deleteMCH era where a group infamously farmed LB just to get the ninja to spam LB's to do speedkills faster than having a physical ranged in the party which is a 1% stat loss among other things. It's also just not a very common sentiment anymore. That's how you push limits to see how far you can push a game. It's interesting, it's sometimes bizarre, but it is what it is.

Generally though even during that period of time in SB? Yeah that wasn't commonplace, MCH's were still allowed in most parties, usually if the PF meme'd by locking RDM or MCH, it was a trap anyway.

That being said, Healers have their own problem of mainly having little to do when there's nothing to heal, which yeah, there's just going to be times where there's not much to heal like how there's not constant tankbusters firing off every single auto. If you'd rather waste time though on a rhetorical question though on a very small piece of content, and not considering things like deep dungeons/extreme/savage/ultimate/eureka content/criterion/etc. especially for general players and not hyperspecific groups with acute knowledge and skill of the game to execute it, then you do you. Again, tried to warn people when forums wanted to nerf tank sustain by saying it wasn't going to happen for months, and now we got even more of it.

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Speedruns are speedruns, people will do crazy things to achieve them. Just remember the #deleteMCH era where a group infamously farmed LB just to get the ninja to spam LB's to do speedkills faster than having a physical ranged in the party which is a 1% stat loss among other things. It's also just not a very common sentiment anymore. That's how you push limits to see how far you can push a game. It's interesting, it's sometimes bizarre, but it is what it is.

Generally though even during that period of time in SB? Yeah that wasn't commonplace, MCH's were still allowed in most parties, usually if the PF meme'd by locking RDM or MCH, it was a trap anyway.

That being said, Healers have their own problem of mainly having little to do when there's nothing to heal, which yeah, there's just going to be times where there's not much to heal like how there's not constant tankbusters firing off every single auto. If you'd rather waste time though on a rhetorical question though on a very small piece of content, and not considering things like deep dungeons/extreme/savage/ultimate/eureka content/criterion/etc. especially for general players and not hyperspecific groups with acute knowledge and skill of the game to execute it, then you do you. Again, tried to warn people when forums wanted to nerf tank sustain by saying it wasn't going to happen for months, and now we got even more of it.

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

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It is not irrelevant, it shows that at the core SE has a design problem that needs to be address from both sides of the isle. Tanks are just as much a part of this equation and issue as healers are. Tanks and healers across the board in many games have always been a give and take. For them to adjust healers that allows each style of play to see some light something has to give on the tanks end. Maybe not damage, but something in their kit will have to be readjusted. Fair conversation is to see what exactly the tank community could see as a compromise as to what needs to be adjusted on their part. For the health of the game overall tanks have to be brought in line overall.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

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I gave you 5 possible solutions to this problem, explored them all and then explained why I’ve had interactions where tank mains have blown back that particular solution for x y or z reason and the only response you gave was a vague “this is better than asking thereotical questions and I can kinda see 3 and 5 working but won’t elaborate or explain how I’d deal with solution 3 or 5’s criticisms also wait for 8.0” then that was it

You aren’t even interested in discussion of actual solutions because you refuse to see that tank mains will blow back every solution for whatever reason and because of that “don’t harm tanks to fix healers” fundamentally doesn’t work

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I gave you 5 possible solutions to this problem, explored them all and then explained why I’ve had interactions where tank mains have blown back that particular solution for x y or z reason and the only response you gave was a vague “this is better than asking thereotical questions and I can kinda see 3 and 5 working but won’t elaborate or explain how I’d deal with solution 3 or 5’s criticisms also wait for 8.0” then that was it

You aren’t even interested in discussion of actual solutions because you refuse to see that tank mains will blow back every solution for whatever reason and because of that “don’t harm tanks to fix healers” fundamentally doesn’t work

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And I still agree 3 and 5 work, and again that's not my job to figure out healer stuff. I will still repeat that regardless, doesn't take a healer main to know that the question posed earlier is dumb, and that there's better uses of your time though.

I'd be semi interested in the discussion if there even was one to be had. SE as I've stated rarely hand out nerfs, that's just a fact. Especially considering how this again is relating to those very rare instances of healerless clears which is nothing compared to the old times which you don't seem to want to address like #deleteMCH, P8S week 1, and HW PLD/MNK where the general public had very clear bad vibes on the undesirables. Healers aren't anywhere on that category, PF and DF are the same usual comps unless it's unsync which yeah, unsync, woohoo. I would still focus on that 3/5 and go from there, but if you wanna keep looking at this then I mean go right ahead. The curse of WAR where nobody wants to listen apparently.

You think people would learn after tank sustain didn't get nerfed in the slightest despite months of seeing a small set of people crying for it, but you do you. I'll hope healers and the jobs who have issues get their fixes though. Would be nice.

And once again you completely ignore the fact that I’ve specifically told you that I’ve had tank mains who discussed this with me who said they will absolutely refuse to support solution 3 or 5 because they believe it enchroaches on their role or otherwise believe that it isn’t good for tank healer inter balance because they are also afraid that the healer will start to ignore them (solution 3) or they are back to relying on the healer when they don’t want to (solution 5)

How do you reconcile the fact that other tank mains have opposing opinions to fixing the healer problem than you do. Sure it’s easy to go “it’s not my problem good luck though” but that doesn’t help in any way

I don’t know how many times I have to tell you I’ve been having “productive discussions” as you put them and tank mains cut me off at the knees on every one because every tank has a different idea on their roles responsibility and combined they cut off every avenue of fixing the healers

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

And I still agree 3 and 5 work, and again that's not my job to figure out healer stuff. I will still repeat that regardless, doesn't take a healer main to know that the question posed earlier is dumb, and that there's better uses of your time though.

I'd be semi interested in the discussion if there even was one to be had. SE as I've stated rarely hand out nerfs, that's just a fact. Especially considering how this again is relating to those very rare instances of healerless clears which is nothing compared to the old times which you don't seem to want to address like #deleteMCH, P8S week 1, and HW PLD/MNK where the general public had very clear bad vibes on the undesirables. Healers aren't anywhere on that category, PF and DF are the same usual comps unless it's unsync which yeah, unsync, woohoo. I would still focus on that 3/5 and go from there, but if you wanna keep looking at this then I mean go right ahead. The curse of WAR where nobody wants to listen apparently.

You think people would learn after tank sustain didn't get nerfed in the slightest despite months of seeing a small set of people crying for it, but you do you. I'll hope healers and the jobs who have issues get their fixes though. Would be nice.

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Why is it dumb because you don't agree that people should not care if their entire role is replaced even if it is small subset of content? You are a tank player that seems to be experienced and other players have asked for your feedback on suggested changes but you willfully choose to ignore because as you said not your problem. In that case why comment at all saying something is dumb if it is not your problem?

Why not engage and offer feedback on the suggestions? What harm would it do?

As a tank player my suggestion would be to reduce our sustain and readjust our mit, possibly give us more active mit skill like TBN. Bake some more group utility back into healers that requires a degree of maintaince , and overall increase incoming damage across the board from raid bosses. I do not think damage per-se has to be touched when it comes to tanks. Though touching damage is a quick and easier fix overall.

The elephant in the room is that damage output is always dependent on player performance. You can buff healer damage output all you want, but you'll always have a subset of the healer playerbase who wants to heal! They're good at healing! You can't make them do those other things! You can apply a multiplier to zero if you like, but it's still zero at the end of the day.

I think it's fine to have a discussion around what each role brings to the table, but I think this is the wrong angle.

This is a horrible choice that makes tanks less fun rather than addressing the actual issue of healer design in the game

??? Increasing healers’ share of the total party damage punishes them for needing to heal/recover the party more than they already are.

I keep seeing this “trinity game” thing getting tossed around as if the way this game works hasn’t always amounted to dealing damage alone. You can take sustain and mitigation options away as much as you want but high level optimization in this game will always revolve around killing bosses faster (i.e. doing more damage by spending less time healing). The answer to this whole healer dilemma has always been giving healers more engaging damage rotations (NOT the same as increasing their share of damage) because, as long as healers have the ability to deal damage at all, they’ll be trying to maximize the amount of time they can spend doing that instead of healing. I’m not sure when the Healer Strike crowd lost the plot on this.

This game will never demand dynamic heal plans/have random instances of party damage because it never has and, as all of the outspoken critics of SE should know by now, the game will never meaningfully change its formula/design principles (setting aside the fact that changing the game’s fundamental design would make old content feel several orders of magnitude worse than they already do). Complaining about not needing to heal enough is like being upset that you have to shoot people in Call of Duty, you are asking for something this game will never, can never give you.

Go do MINE raiding idk what to tell you

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Originally Posted by Squig

I keep seeing this “trinity game” thing getting tossed around as if the way this game works hasn’t always amounted to dealing damage alone. You can take sustain and mitigation options away as much as you want but high level optimization in this game will always revolve around killing bosses faster (i.e. doing more damage by spending less time healing). The answer to this whole healer dilemma has always been giving healers more engaging damage rotations (NOT the same as increasing their share of damage) because, as long as healers have the ability to deal damage at all, they’ll be trying to maximize the amount of time they can spend doing that instead of healing. I’m not sure when the Healer Strike crowd lost the plot on this.

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More engaging gameplay suggests more damage buttons, and I don't think healers want more buttons just to deal the exact same damage. Like if healers had 2-3 DoTs but the exact same potency, all it adds is a higher chance of messing up and dealing less damage without the reward, and then you have fewer GCDs to heal when you need to. There are also so many oGCD heals now that it shouldn't matter that much anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Fair conversation is to see what exactly the tank community could see as a compromise as to what needs to be adjusted on their part. For the health of the game overall tanks have to be brought in line overall.

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This was your mistake. No one will advocate for their own reduction in power.

The only sane way moving forward is heavily reducing tank sustain. You do this by either heavily reducing their healing (Because healing on tanks is magnified by their mitigation both passively and with cooldowns), or moving that to short duration shields. And frankly most tanks shouldn't be part of the discussion because the history of these forums shows a player cannot be trusted to put the game before their own interests.

To the initial question posed in the title, I don't think it would solve much. You would just have healers doing higher damage with a still unsatisfying lack of DPS options and tanks having less of an impact in the fight other than standing around. It also means that healers will need to prioritizing pressing their DPS during 2 min windows harder than presently which could make their DPS variable depending on fight flow. I don't really mind healers having their damage raised proportionately to tanks (in the same way DPS melees are balanced against ranged currently) and potentially stripping some of tanks raidwide mitigation to shift further onto healers. This would give them more responsibility over the lives of the party while allowing tanks to retain some autonomy over their own preservation still. Either option increases the healer workload in different directions. I feel like a step to making healers more interesting rather than just tuning numbers up would be giving them more interesting DPS buttons and increasing interactivity between their DPS and their healing output.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This was your mistake. No one will advocate for their own reduction in power.

The only sane way moving forward is heavily reducing tank sustain. You do this by either heavily reducing their healing (Because healing on tanks is magnified by their mitigation both passively and with cooldowns), or moving that to short duration shields. And frankly most tanks shouldn't be part of the discussion because the history of these forums shows a player cannot be trusted to put the game before their own interests.

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Tanks shouldn't be in a discussion that directly is addressing tanks? A group shouldn't be involved in conversations that concern themselves? That's a terrible mentality to have. You just create an echo chamber to suit yourself. The idea that I should just trust others to make observations and decisions for my role without getting to chime in is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Issue with giving them the same damage it will not solve the issue with them being replaced in content when possible. A healers job in FFXIV can be replaced but the nature of aggro in this game a Tank cannot be easily replaced.

The enjoyment factor is just one part of the equation.

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Im not really talking about that, healers need to be the best at healing and everyone else has to be awful at or unable to heal for them not to get replaced simply. I think Healer Damage increase is a QoL for the MSQ and solo content, doing the MSQ as a healer is painfully boring because theres tons of quests where you have to kill mobs and it takes way longer than Tanks or DPS. Sure you can say switch to DPS or Tank for this but a lot of players who do the MSQ stick with one job and especially their starting role throughout the entire MSQ so really Healers doing as much damage as Tanks would alleviate this annoying aspect of the game.

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Originally Posted by FunnyCero

Tanks shouldn't be in a discussion that directly is addressing tanks? A group shouldn't be involved in conversations that concern themselves? That's a terrible mentality to have. You just create an echo chamber to suit yourself. The idea that I should just trust others to make observations and decisions for my role without getting to chime in is ridiculous.

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I said most, because most of them have proven it over the years.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I said most, because most of them have proven it over the years.

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My point still stands? Most by your metric is different for others and people can see the game differently than you do. If you're going to make a post about tanks in the tank roles section, you are inviting yourself to be critiqued by all kinds of tank players (and others).

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Originally Posted by FunnyCero

My point still stands? Most by your metric is different for others and people can see the game differently than you do. If you're going to make a post about tanks in the tank roles section, you are inviting yourself to be critiqued by all kinds of tank players (and others).

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I am no stranger to this, so you can rest easy.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

More engaging gameplay suggests more damage buttons, and I don't think healers want more buttons just to deal the exact same damage. Like if healers had 2-3 DoTs but the exact same potency, all it adds is a higher chance of messing up and dealing less damage without the reward, and then you have fewer GCDs to heal when you need to. There are also so many oGCD heals now that it shouldn't matter that much anyway.

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This I find is the crux of my issue with the "more engaging gameplay" arguement - you summed it up beautifully; if Healers got more complex damage rotations they would then start asking for higher overall damage and then it just becomes a never ending arms race. I don't feel adding DPS is going to solve the problem; its going to result in healers probably healing less overall and groups demanding more damage output from healers which I don't think is a great way to go. Personally I'd like to see more support abilities added to healers - I would actually strip 2min raid-wide DPS buffs from DPS and give them to healers and roll Dancer and Bard into the Healer camp possibly.

(edit forgot this part)
Example of short duration buffs that a good healer might want to keep up and on the right targets...by no means the only ones.
For example - Give WHM a Life III (buff that raises you if you die)
Give Astrologican Haste (+Weapon/Cast speed)
Give Sage Temper (+Wpn Damage)

To be fair what I enjoyed about healing when I healed as Ast was the buff and utility aspect
My take to improve healers and also make sure they are always staple even in speed running.

First remove rez from other roles. Give healers a combat rez on a 10 min timer or once per combat use and give them one self rez. Give healers more group utility that needs to be manged and maintained not just cast and forgotten.

Reduce overall sustain across the board for no healers slightly nothing too crazy just a minor nerf.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

More engaging gameplay suggests more damage buttons, and I don't think healers want more buttons just to deal the exact same damage. Like if healers had 2-3 DoTs but the exact same potency, all it adds is a higher chance of messing up and dealing less damage without the reward, and then you have fewer GCDs to heal when you need to. There are also so many oGCD heals now that it shouldn't matter that much anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

This I find is the crux of my issue with the "more engaging gameplay" arguement - you summed it up beautifully; if Healers got more complex damage rotations they would then start asking for higher overall damage and then it just becomes a never ending arms race. I don't feel adding DPS is going to solve the problem; its going to result in healers probably healing less overall and groups demanding more damage output from healers which I don't think is a great way to go. Personally I'd like to see more support abilities added to healers - I would actually strip 2min raid-wide DPS buffs from DPS and give them to healers and roll Dancer and Bard into the Healer camp possibly.

(edit forgot this part)
Example of short duration buffs that a good healer might want to keep up and on the right targets...by no means the only ones.
For example - Give WHM a Life III (buff that raises you if you die)
Give Astrologican Haste (+Weapon/Cast speed)
Give Sage Temper (+Wpn Damage)

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If what you want is to spend all your focus pumping HPS for a party that needs it, you both picked the wrong game for it. I don't know a nice way to communicate that you're demanding a massive upheaval that will never, ever happen in the design of a game whose developers have done nothing to meaningfully shake things up in the past decade. Get real. Please keep your incessant whining about healers out of the tank forums.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I have no idea why the tanks arbitrarily do 30% more damage than the healers when it’s entirely feasible the tank will get their best parse ever on their first clear because they functionally never have to optimise their damage because tank is designed as a melee a class with no positionals with inbuilt 100% uptime

The damage balance they had in ShB where on your average first clear or PF reclear the tank would out damage the healer while organised statics could push it he healer 5-10% higher than as perfect. Now the best healer on the strongest healer class is still 15% weaker than the worst tank on the worst tank class for literally zero reason

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Likely because Tanks often are required to deal with additional gameplay elements in raid encounters such as tank swaps and what have you - however having a tank exclusively because they HAVE to be there creates a bit of a problem (not having a 2nd tank for that 1-2 tankbusters means death for others) but so the other tank otherwise sitting around with even less to do then healers I "suspect" is why they have somewhat better damage then healers - that said I've seen White mages passing tanks these days due to glare.

I don't think this is a good way to solve the problem, but I would be okay with it.

That said, it's worth considering that in normal difficulty content, healers are the most prone to lethargic play (never/rarely using damage buttons). So I think overall this change would greatly slow down dungeons and trials even if the damage output ought to be the same. I think it would need to be paired with a redesign of healers (or the way healer is taught to players) that encourages/makes easier doing damage, and punishes just healing.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

Likely because Tanks often are required to deal with additional gameplay elements in raid encounters such as tank swaps and what have you.

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No, it's because tanks !@#%#ed in Shadowbringers that in optimized runs, the Healers were dealing about 5% more. And keep in mind this was in the RDPS tab, which meant the only real outlier was Astrologian, a class based around buffing the entire team. The only healer who was keeping up with them in the metric that mattered* was White Mage.

*Being ADPS because tanks do not bring buffs.

Simple solution:

Equalize healer and tank DPS in the latter's direction. Done. Band-aid fix.

The Solution Nobody Wants But Is The Only Way This Small Indie Company Might Willingly Make The Game Harder:

BYE BYE, BLOODWHETTING! FAREWELL, EXCOG OF CORUNDUM! SHAKE IT OFF (OVER TIME)? NEVER HEARD OF HER!

I need a drink.

Every standard piece of content I can think of has a tank-buster, something that practically screams we should have a tank for this, and yet we have nothing like that for healers. Raidwides? Those are literally non-threatening because every role has a button to mitigate the damage. Now what if those raidwides applied doom or true walking dead?

We could have the following in our day to day standard content (e.g dungeons, trials, etc):

• dispellable de-buffs being applied to the party (e.g. throttle and doom)
• mobs that heavily auto and demand single-target healing on non-tank party members and NPCS
• shields preventing deadly/annoying de-buffs from applying to the party (e.g. smileton last boss mines)
• enemy casts that set the party's HP to 1 and follows up with heavy raidwides
• using the action "rescue" on immobilized players to resolve mechanics.
• utilizing certain death mechanics like:
• white hole (certain death if below 50% HP)
• terror unleashed (certain death if not full HP)
  

Why are these things not common place in our regular dungeons? Our savage raids? Why not add complexity to the healer role, for example, create a hazardous and deadly de-buff and apply it onto players which requires a new healer-only buff to survive and live through.

If people really want to advocate solely for the nerf/removal of tank self-sustain instead of engaging with every available point of healer interaction, then the healer role will continue to be boring to me (specifically in dungeons).

Would that we could have such nice things. I suggested increasing damage, having more interrupts and esuna effects and such in the WAR thread, I also suggested we could have all of these things and curb the extremes of tank self-sustain to reintroduce the tank-healer interdependence but all I got for it was "no, I won't permit WAR being nerfed".

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Originally Posted by ZUZ

Every standard piece of content I can think of has a tank-buster, something that practically screams we should have a tank for this, and yet we have nothing like that for healers. Raidwides? Those are literally non-threatening because every role has a button to mitigate the damage. Now what if those raidwides applied doom or true walking dead?

We could have the following in our day to day standard content (e.g dungeons, trials, etc):

• dispellable de-buffs being applied to the party (e.g. throttle and doom)
• mobs that heavily auto and demand single-target healing on non-tank party members and NPCS
• shields preventing deadly/annoying de-buffs from applying to the party (e.g. smileton last boss mines)
• enemy casts that set the party's HP to 1 and follows up with heavy raidwides
• using the action "rescue" on immobilized players to resolve mechanics.
• utilizing certain death mechanics like:
• white hole (certain death if below 50% HP)
• terror unleashed (certain death if not full HP)
  

Why are these things not common place in our regular dungeons? Our savage raids? Why not add complexity to the healer role, for example, create a hazardous and deadly de-buff and apply it onto players which requires a new healer-only buff to survive and live through.

If people really want to advocate solely for the nerf/removal of tank self-sustain instead of engaging with every available point of healer interaction, then the healer role will continue to be boring to me (specifically in dungeons).

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This is the real solution. Give healers something to do besides healing physical damage, namely healing afflictions. These can affect more than just the tank, so there's more to do. Think about what the role actually is representing. Imagine a fantasy world where you have magical healers like priests or clerics or whatever you want to call them. What are they probably doing most of the time, stitching up wounds or dealing with things like illnesses, curses, all things unholy etc.? If a healer only ever fills the same role as a potion, what's even the point of having the class?

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Originally Posted by ZUZ

• dispellable de-buffs being applied to the party (e.g. throttle and doom)
• mobs that heavily auto and demand single-target healing on non-tank party members and NPCS
• shields preventing deadly/annoying de-buffs from applying to the party (e.g. smileton last boss mines)
• enemy casts that set the party's HP to 1 and follows up with heavy raidwides
• using the action "rescue" on immobilized players to resolve mechanics.
• utilizing certain death mechanics like:
• white hole (certain death if below 50% HP)
• terror unleashed (certain death if not full HP)
  

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Now this is more like it. They've also done stuff like this in certain dungeons like the Fell Court of Troia for example where despite how the minority insist on it, Bloodwhetting may be a very useful tool but it won't prevent a doom that requires Esuna, which healers conveniently have. That being said, the only thing that makes me sad is that they wouldn't add too many of these to dungeons because apparently "Dawntrail is too hard", and it's been like that since years prior. Even though personally with how hard the autos and bosses can hit in the current Experts(week 1 of that was rather terrifying actually), I wouldn't mind seeing more but the more you add, the more we get into meme situations where parties die repeatedly on content that's meant to be pretty repeatable and not anything too taxing.

Still, I'd rather see more discussions along this line than the simple braindead nerfs that keep getting asked for. Those definitely ain't coming no matter how much people cry about it, we already got more self sustain than before so that should already say something. Nerfs suck, interesting mechanics though sign me up. And again, some dungeons already do things like that, they just need more of that. I just pray to the general public that they can handle something as simple as White Hole when they fail to cleanse the Doom you randomly receive in Dun Scaith...or you know, the RP battles in the story in general.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

Likely because Tanks often are required to deal with additional gameplay elements in raid encounters such as tank swaps and what have you

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It's really funny that healers are meant to have exclusive gameplay elements like healing/regening the tank during big damage and generally healing the party. But because the job design team is so bad at their job this now doesn't exist anymore lmao

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Now this is more like it. They've also done stuff like this in certain dungeons like the Fell Court of Troia for example where despite how the minority insist on it, Bloodwhetting may be a very useful tool but it won't prevent a doom that requires Esuna, which healers conveniently have. That being said, the only thing that makes me sad is that they wouldn't add too many of these to dungeons because apparently "Dawntrail is too hard", and it's been like that since years prior. Even though personally with how hard the autos and bosses can hit in the current Experts(week 1 of that was rather terrifying actually), I wouldn't mind seeing more but the more you add, the more we get into meme situations where parties die repeatedly on content that's meant to be pretty repeatable and not anything too taxing.

Still, I'd rather see more discussions along this line than the simple braindead nerfs that keep getting asked for. Those definitely ain't coming no matter how much people cry about it, we already got more self sustain than before so that should already say something. Nerfs suck, interesting mechanics though sign me up. And again, some dungeons already do things like that, they just need more of that. I just pray to the general public that they can handle something as simple as White Hole when they fail to cleanse the Doom you randomly receive in Dun Scaith...or you know, the RP battles in the story in general.

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Gotta say that's a pretty bad example, considering the application of Doom in this situation is only when failing a mechanic. But you're right in that the version of Doom that has to be removed through Esuna is something Tanks can't handle (yet). Other things on the list that you're praising can definitely be dealt with by tanks, like shields to prevent debuffs, HP reduction to 1 -> raidwide, white hole, or terror unleashed. Meanwhile, you keep on hammering down on how "simple braindead nerfs" suck, and that they should just make healers interesting without touching tanks for the simple fact that "those nerfs aren't coming". Otherwise known as the mentality of "Sure, make healers more fun but don't you dare touching tanks!". You're going to have to face the fact that for SE to make most of that list of suggestions work, they're going to have to take a good look at party sustain provided by tanks.

I'd like to point out again that these discussions you're asking for likely were more prevalent years ago, when a lot of healers were still hopeful that SE could take the game into the direction of having healers deal with more situations like the suggested list. With how the game has been developed over the past few expansions, it became clear that this wouldn't be the case, and it shouldn't come as a surprise that a lot of healers probably just gave up on this.

Simple consideration that I hope has been mentioned before but that I will repeat anyways to be safe:

Which role can actually lose damage? AKA, which is always providing in-role value regardless of damage dealt?

Common sense would hint that the role which suffers lower lows should also have higher highs / that the one whose damage is more penalized in practical contexts should have the higher theoretical maximum damage.

A tank, by nature of just being alive and targeted by the enemy, roughly halves the healing required from enemy attacks. No miti skills or no self-heals needed; that's just from existing. At ilvl 710, even ignoring Tenacity, tanks have about 47% passive mitigation.

And because our health pools are roughly equal portion greater, we're also putting out about half more in natural regen. A 180,000 hp tank puts out about 1200 more HPS passively than a non-tank of equal ilvl. Effectively speaking though, remember that bonus is also worth ~47% more in effective HP. All this... passively.

Each tankbuster survived that a non-tank could not? That's a Swiftcast, GCD, 3k MP, and 25% or 50% of a non-tanks output for 90 seconds, and 100% of the non-tanks' output between the death and being given action again (at least 4s due to animation lock). Or 5.5 more seconds of uptime in place of the Swiftcast, often risking further deaths or requiring yet further delays to the arrival of that raise.

Both roles then have "free" output via tanking/healing CDs atop all that, but what healing value is the healer putting out between those CDs without a loss to damage? (Note here that every DoT and HoT in this game is snapshotted and is therefore best considered to have been done in the GCD it's cast.) None.

Now, what value is the tank putting out between CDs? Even just passively, they put out more %DR than any active defensive skill save for Superbolide and Hallowed Ground. Yes, passively.

Which, then, seems like it should have higher damage striking dummy damage?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This was your mistake. No one will advocate for their own reduction in power.

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Right, so instead we have to placate them with costly workarounds (buff everyone else and buff all content), that end with... exactly the same result (a relative nerf to the singular at-issue job or effect).

Sometimes I wonder if we really need to increase the rewards for/of making significant use of at least one job per role (and ideally at least 2 jobs within a given main role) just to temper the bias a little bit.

_______________

E.g.,
Perhaps, once you buy a piece of weekly gear or acquire a piece of Savage gear, you can then use uncapped tomes to buy that slot for each other role. Overcapped weekly tomes or runs after acquiring one's coffer giving more than their lost weight in uncapped tomes. Weekly challenges that reward significant amounts of tomes. And some nerfs to Hunt tomes drops to spread players out a bit.

Granted, we also get people who level every DoW, DoM, DotL, and DotH within a week of the expansion's release but can't help but take every opportunity to rebuke even the slightest threat to their favored job's excess power, so encouraging spreading one's time certainly doesn't guarantee any spread of interest... /shrug

Maybe I’ve missed something but I don’t understand what this would actually change? And I don’t mean that in a like a rhetorical passive-aggressive sense lol just asking for more clarity. Healer dps potencies would go up, making them deal more overall damage which I guess might make people take them more.

But at the same time isn’t the reason people aren’t playing healers that the gameplay is so boring? Even if they were higher dps than tanks I don’t think that would encourage more people to suddenly start playing, since most players probably wouldn’t even notice the difference.

Unless maybe it’s more about ‘healers having the same breadth of attacks as tanks?’ Which I guess could work, but wouldn’t devs have to retool our healing kits to accomodate for the new attacks? Removing a bunch of healing skills, moving the potencies into one/two standard heals then the rest dps? I imagine like an inversion of what we have now lol. SE seem to enjoy hiding behind their ‘ability cap’ excuse (‘we can only add if we also remove’), after all, or some weird scapegoat lol (spaghetti netcode).

I imagine they’d use that kind of reasoning for why don’t already have expanded dps options on healers (despite having them in the past lol). And, I’m not saying any of this against expanded dps options. I’ve played Scholar since ARR so it’s not like I wasn’t still playing it when Cleric Stance or the 50 million DoTs were still around. Though I was a Bard main and also played Summoner so I was already used to dot management. Personally I’m not really bothered what dps healers do overall as long as they’re fun to play, but maybe that’s partly because I’m a PS5 player and thus remain somewhat beyond the corruptive reaches of certain ‘tools’ lol. I mean, I’d like an ideal world where ‘healers’ do ‘healer stuff’ like buffing/debuffing/esuna/etc, but that’s obviously never happening

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

Likely because Tanks often are required to deal with additional gameplay elements in raid encounters such as tank swaps and what have you - however having a tank exclusively because they HAVE to be there creates a bit of a problem (not having a 2nd tank for that 1-2 tankbusters means death for others) but so the other tank otherwise sitting around with even less to do then healers I "suspect" is why they have somewhat better damage then healers - that said I've seen White mages passing tanks these days due to glare.

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In a majority of fights, tanks, objectively speaking, deal with fewer role events than healers, even if healers' events are often less distinct.

And, in a majority of even raid/trial fights, if we were to also include tanks' passive mitigation among what we bother to log, Warrior and Paladin, especially, would frequently provide more sustain than a typical healer (as you'd have to multiple the damage taken from TBs and autos by ~89% to undo the ~47% mitigation tanks provide passively, and attribute that difference to the tank[s] being attacked).

While the above could be sorted by putting out more AoE damage than tanks (let alone DNC, MNK, MCH, etc.) could meaningfully contribute against, there's the still the matter than damage has come at zero cost to tanks' sustain (be it via mit or healing) performance since Shadowbringers, and yet tank damage remains higher than healers. That is not particularly sensible. Presently, the only one whose damage can be penalized... also has a lower damage ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Maybe I’ve missed something but I don’t understand what this would actually change? And I don’t mean that in a like a rhetorical passive-aggressive sense lol just asking for more clarity. Healer dps potencies would go up, making them deal more overall damage which I guess might make people take them more.

But at the same time isn’t the reason people aren’t playing healers that the gameplay is so boring? Even if they were higher dps than tanks I don’t think that would encourage more people to suddenly start playing, since most players probably wouldn’t even notice the difference.

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So, first thing, a reminder: Having higher maximum damage is not mutually exclusive with having more interesting offensive gameplay Whatsoever. Nor is it mutually exclusive with anything else save for... not buffing maximum damage. That out of the way...

A lot of associations about a given job or role trickle down from on high. Far more so than makes sense, given the additional players affected and the manner of those effects. When it's known that the hardest content in the game can be cleared faster without healers, it does not make healing particularly inviting. It looks increasingly instead like a trap, like welding training wheels to one's bike.

I see no point in doing what amounts to a knee jerk reaction to something an extremely small part of the player base has been doing since the beginning.

I disagree with the idea of swapping them so healers do more damage than tanks, but I do generally agree with the feeling that they should perhaps have more parity between their potential damage output.

In my experience, in an MMO that has established roles that jobs or classes fall into, any roles that fall into what could be deemed as having a function outside of dealing raw damage that is meant to support group-play/party functionality (healing, tanking, buffer/debuffer, crowd-control, etc.) needs to be designed in either one of two ways. Either their role and the supportive functionality that it brings is absolutely necessary for the success of the group or it is intentionally made not necessary and is simply more supplemental to provide a slightly easier or alternate way to succeed.

Unfortunately where FF14 currently sits isn't fully within either of those, especially for the healing role. It had started off much more in the expected position of a trinity based MMO where the functions of each role were far more necessary.
Just looking at the healer role since 2.0, the need for a healer to provide healing used to be far higher due to some of the content being a bit more unforgiving and other roles, particularly tanks, having far less tools that minimalized or at times negated the need for external healing. As time went on a lot of content became far more forgiving in terms of general difficulty in order to be more accommodating to more casual players, which honestly is a large part if not the largest part of any MMO player-base population. So that in of itself isn't really that isn't really a bad decision on their end as long as there is also more difficult content made available for players that want a challenge.
Where it really went off the rails is that in addition to that, too many tools were provided to other roles that minimalized or trivialized the need for healers. The most egregious example is the sheer amount of self-sustain that some tanks now have. If a tank has enough self-healing that they can potentially be their own healer in content, especially current content, then that pretty much neutralizes the need for a healer role at all unless they bring something else necessary or valuable to the table, which they currently don't.

So if I would point to anything that could be done to help make the situation talked about in this thread less of a problem, it would be to perhaps increase the potential damage output for healers where it would be close to or equitable to tank damage if the healer is focusing pretty much purely on dps and not healing that much. Also to rein in the self-healing on some of the tank jobs because frankly it has gotten a bit out of hand.

As for making healer game-play more fun, that is a discussion for a different thread in a different part of the forums.

It's just bad design for healers to have a worse solo experience then tanks when 90% of the game is the msq where you will be solo for pretty much all of it.
You know what most white mages do?
Once they hit 50 they switch to SAM or RDM then at 60 they switch to DNC. Its boring to solo as a healer because you have no damage mechanics and it takes too long to kill things.

If the Devs want more healers they need to make healers have DPS mechanics and tank level damage and they need to stop taking advice from people who play healer as a second job or only at endgame because this isn't what creates mains.
If SCH didn't suck to play id be playing that because it was my first job, but because CBU3 only focuses on raiders the job is painful to play.

Another thing I would like to add is that healers are not competing with tanks for DPS in speedrunning content. They are competing with ranged DPS and, no, they will never be taken over a DPS because they will never do more damage than a DPS.

I would rather have Healers be brought up to the level of Tanks when it comes to base damage, the only loss to DPS Healers should have compared to Tanks is having to stop to heal occasionally rather than just being objectively weaker while also having the DPS loss from having to occasionally cast a heal...

And if SE suddenly pretends to care about balance, as the current state of affairs is literally brought about by a lack of balance, then only maybe taking some damage away from Tanks to compensate for the increased Healer damage and have the two meet halfway.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

How would you suggest fixing healing without negatively affecting tanks because right now half of the tank mains I talk to seem to think being a more effective healer than the healer is a core tenant of tank gameplay

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Pay me billions of dollars like FF14 has made and I'll work it right up for you. It's not a problem we should have to solve or suffer for, it's the devs'. Why are we wasting our energy asking the dev's to make tanking unfun to play because healers don't like their roles anymore? Anyone remember the tanking shortage back in the day? It was so bad that there's achievements with MOUNTS attached to tanking high level duties. Far worse than any healer strike. Let's go back to that then. While we're at it, let's remove all utilities from all DPS jobs and make every single job in the game a boring husk so the healers can press cure 2 a couple extra times.