Battle High needs to change/be removed

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Folks complained about it then, about losing battle high completely and about having to last hit in order to gain battle high. If reverting is only going to bring those same complaints back up it's not worth it. (see previous post about this)

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I think we can be fairly confident that reverting, removing, or maintaining the status quo with BH will produce a similar number of complaints. This may be because it's impact is a symptom of something deeper that is broken.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Folks complained about it then, about losing battle high completely and about having to last hit in order to gain battle high. If reverting is only going to bring those same complaints back up it's not worth it. (see previous post about this)

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Doing anything would cause complaints regardless. But the benefit of reverting to the old system is that there would be less BH5s on the field and people can no longer make excuses thar they lost the fight because the other team has too much BH5.

The main problem I see in this thread with people trying to consistently dampen or outright remove the mechanic whether it's battle high or anything else, is that you're all by definition trying to accommodate more for the losing team by removing rewards for skill expression and victory conditions. Again, the reason BH is there is to force people into tactical kills and engage each other instead of sitting on objectives and occasionally fighting for them, which is what already happens btw when all teams are lead by nobody and the majority of their players are clueless of how the mode works (cf my shamelessly reposted meme pic on the first page). If you remove all teeth from BH or just remove it, that's essentially the type of gameplay you'll foster.

The fact remains that people complain about BH because it makes good players kill better and get rewarded for it into a snowball mechanic, but the fact is also that the other players are just complaining that a good team is winning and they're not. I've been into useless teams that can't seem to win any engagement no matter what you do, and they don't even sit on objectives either! They just don't win, and you get pushed back, eventually rooted, and farmed. You don't fix this by limiting the BH or rewards the other team gets, you fix this by making people play better. You all have to come to realization that this isn't CC with clear rank segmentation triaging people according to their skill level and matching them equally. You have everybody mashed up into the mode, from the green novice that's lost to the hardcore premade tryhard, with casual rouletters and tryhard solo vets somewhere in the middle. It's like having a football game with randos in both teams and complaining that the other team is crushing yours because they have a group of professional players and you only have a semi pro at best with the rest of your team made of preschoolers just here to kick into the ball and have fun.

You don't fix this by changing the rules of the game. You accept this is a casual mode and you learn to live with it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

It's like having a football game with randos in both teams and complaining that the other team is crushing yours because they have a group of professional players and you only have a semi pro at best with the rest of your team made of preschoolers just here to kick into the ball and have fun.

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Right, and outside of pathological cases like charity matches, football is never played like that.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You don't fix this by changing the rules of the game. You accept this is a casual mode and you learn to live with it.

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I'm not personally in favour of removing Battle High because I believe that players who engage successfully in PvP should be rewarded, I also know that the system encourages people to not sit on their thumbs and actually go and fight each other.

However, I do think that Battle High as a system does need to be updated to fit the modern kits. The healing increase was attached to it back when the team required healers to keep them alive, the healing increase was to make it easier to keep the BH5 player alive as they're a priority target. But now that everyone is responsible for their own survival and we all get at least 4 x 25000 heals in every engagement, there's really no need for the healing increase anymore.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Right, and outside of pathological cases like charity matches, football is never played like that.

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Then the solution is to introduce ranks. Do you think it will really happen to the FL mode though? I'm spamming X for doubt.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm not personally in favour of removing Battle High because I believe that players who engage successfully in PvP should be rewarded, I also know that the system encourages people to not sit on their thumbs and actually go and fight each other.

However, I do think that Battle High as a system does need to be updated to fit the modern kits. The healing increase was attached to it back when the team required healers to keep them alive, the healing increase was to make it easier to keep the BH5 player alive as they're a priority target. But now that everyone is responsible for their own survival and we all get at least 4 x 25000 heals in every engagement, there's really no need for the healing increase anymore.

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BH could definitely be better for sure. Not affecting Recuperate for starters, people don't even imagine how squishier it would make BH5 players already as a change. I feel people greatly underestimate what such a change would do on its own, before even talking about innate DRs, etc. I'm very mixed on BH not affecting healing from job specific healing abilities though since they're part of the kit, but I do acknowledge that a BH5 aspected benefic is absolutely disgusting for the AST to stay alive. Fortunately most of those big heals are found on squishies and not on melees, except tanks perhaps.

My personal problem with BH is how it still relies on getting the last hit for a kill. It's so unreliable, and doesn't promote any good gameplay anyway. Some games you'll get BH5 in two engagements because you're just lucky, and sometimes you'll just struggle because the rng gods hate you. It feels very arbitrary and on top of it, affects jobs completely unequally. The only job that's very bad at getting last hits that isn't suffering from this is actually SCH, for example.

I don't know how it would hold ultimately but I'd like BH gauge rewards not be based on final hits, but on damage contribution perhaps, or on a fixed amount split between the amount of participants (doesn't have to be linear else it would be ridiculous). And perhaps you could reward players with a lot more BH tied to the BH rating of the target they manage to kill. For instance, deleting a BH5 player could reward you with 5 times the amount.

And then frankly even though it's not about BH much, either innate DRs for melees are way too high, or they're way too low for ranged jobs. Ranged jobs are absolute trash in this mode beyond a few that get some redeeming qualities due to specific key abilities of their toolkit and even then...

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Originally Posted by Valence

Then the solution is to introduce ranks. Do you think it will really happen to the FL mode though? I'm spamming X for doubt.

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I think doubt for any significant PvP change is a wise default position.

However, SQEX has mentioned cross-region queues and even experimented with cloud hosting. NA has 3.5 DCs. If we all queued together into a 3-tier ranked FL mode, there would be no issue with queue times. It could even be used as a test case for broader application across dungeons and raiding.

As discussed elsewhere, for FL to survive it needs new players, and I think retention of such players is far more likely if they start off in the kiddie pool. And it'd give the premade tryhards what they want -- JP-style FL with all the comforts of home.

And I wouldn't have anything to moan about. Seriously. This fixes the whole shebang as far as I'm concerned.

Wait. Inventory space. I'll complain about that.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think we can be fairly confident that reverting, removing, or maintaining the status quo with BH will produce a similar number of complaints. This may be because it's impact is a symptom of something deeper that is broken.

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Seems like another Tuesday truth be told. Folks don't like change to their, and everyone will have verbal pvp to make sure that their class is the best and that they can do extremely well with said changes. No doubt that something is always going to be busted. It's a balance between multiple modes, and that's the beauty of it. What doesn't work for one mode may work for the other.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Doing anything would cause complaints regardless. But the benefit of reverting to the old system is that there would be less BH5s on the field and people can no longer make excuses thar they lost the fight because the other team has too much BH5.

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There needs to be a bit more harsher penalties for dying. That I can agree. They took too much of the punishment away when trying to make frontlines more friendly and ironically made the game a lot longer to finish due to taking away the additional points earned from the old system.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You don't fix this by changing the rules of the game. You accept this is a casual mode and you learn to live with it.

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You might be late with this message. Not the casual part, but the rule changing part. All of these rule changes over time, and the only thing that improve besides the offensive/defensive difficulty swap is having little to no barriers as far as going to objectives are concerned. If that means making a class useless just to keep the farming power going then so be it. It's pretty obvious to me that many would rather run to the devs for feel good changes rather than simply adapt. That punting fiasco is a great example since out of that Secure remains a locked map, and the new Shatter map does not have any downtime regarding to farming ice. I fear as though this is only going to continue until solo carrying is close to nonexistent, and you're forced to rely on another player to get the job done, preferably another random instead of a friend based off the topic of premades.

Imo if you die it should reset your BH back to zero. Would not solve much in the grand scheme, but I do not think losing half is enough when you get caught and end up dying with BH5.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Imo if you die it should reset your BH back to zero. Would not solve much in the grand scheme, but I do not think losing half is enough when you get caught and end up dying with BH5.

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Might that have the unintended side effect of making BH5 players less likely to engage in fights?

I tend to default to anything that increases engagement and rewards/encourages good play. Valence's idea of getting more match points (BH points too maybe?) if you KO a BH5 player is appealing in this regard. BH5 opponents should be primary targets. Reinforce the point with a carrot.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Might that have the unintended side effect of making BH5 players less likely to engage in fights?
I tend to default to anything that increases engagement and rewards/encourages good play. Valence's idea of getting more match points (BH points too maybe?) if you KO a BH5 player is appealing in this regard. BH5 opponents should be primary targets. Reinforce the point with a carrot.

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At this point of time, i really don't think it is good idea to revert back to old Battle High
This will only creating un-killable BH5 Gods for casuals
SE updated Battle High to current one for this reason too
Number of veterans becomes the determining factor again
It is not really what people looking for

If i was in charge i would selectively apply different tiers of BH to abilities. So for example, 20-30% on DRGs LB but full on basic combo.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Might that have the unintended side effect of making BH5 players less likely to engage in fights?

I tend to default to anything that increases engagement and rewards/encourages good play. Valence's idea of getting more match points (BH points too maybe?) if you KO a BH5 player is appealing in this regard. BH5 opponents should be primary targets. Reinforce the point with a carrot.

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As players are rewarded for doing well, so too should they be punished for making a big mistake.

BH5 players should know when to go in and when to get out, they have the good player mark so they should be focused down and the enemy team should be rewarded for taking them down.

You don't get to BH5 by being a coward, and if someone sits on their BH5 and doesn't engage for fear of losing it, they're not contributing to their team in any way.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

As players are rewarded for doing well, so too should they be punished for making a big mistake.

BH5 players should know when to go in and when to get out, they have the good player mark so they should be focused down and the enemy team should be rewarded for taking them down.

You don't get to BH5 by being a coward, and if someone sits on their BH5 and doesn't engage for fear of losing it, they're not contributing to their team in any way.

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All fair points.

I think what this discussion shows overall is that BH should be retained, if only because of all the interesting suggestions of how it can be used to enhance gameplay and reward effort.

Change Recuperate so that it is unaffected by Battle High's boost.

Also bring back 8v8v8 Frontline as a manual queuing option.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Might that have the unintended side effect of making BH5 players less likely to engage in fights?

I tend to default to anything that increases engagement and rewards/encourages good play. Valence's idea of getting more match points (BH points too maybe?) if you KO a BH5 player is appealing in this regard. BH5 opponents should be primary targets. Reinforce the point with a carrot.

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The BH itself is the reward of playing actively well. I also think you should not get BH for assists if you do lower it to 1. This would also help reduce the power of passive damage like dots and stuff.

Edit: If a worry about lack pf fighting add an aggressive decay timer if you don't engage in combat you also lose the BH. Idk

Said it before, but anyway, make Battle High last 2 steps "upgraded orange" and "red" visible on map at all times. Takes away the surprise wipe and gives info how to outplay the dominant grand company better

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Said it before, but anyway, make Battle High last 2 steps "upgraded orange" and "red" visible on map at all times. Takes away the surprise wipe and gives info how to outplay the dominant grand company better

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that would require the enemy teams to actually have their maps open sadly.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

that would require the enemy teams to actually have their maps open sadly.

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Fortunately, players with the capacity to act on the information will have their maps open.

I want to give my two gil to this.

Remove Battle High.
Remove Recuperate.

There's no reason why every class should have the survivability of a tank through copious amount of sprinting and recuperating.
Elixir is one thing, but the others need to go. They don't make PvP more competitive, they make it tedious as hell.

You cannot 1v1 someone ( Don't say it shouldn't happen, because it does happen at times ) or 2v1 someone, and the otherwise can just recuperate and spring all the way home like nothing.
I honestly miss how old PvP was when we had our class abilities instead of these "eSports PROGAMER" layouts. I have adapted as always, but I don't have to like it.
And I sure as hell don't like Battle High, nor Recuperate.

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Originally Posted by Talamh

You cannot 1v1 someone ( Don't say it shouldn't happen, because it does happen at times ) or 2v1 someone, and the otherwise can just recuperate and spring all the way home like nothing.
I honestly miss how old PvP was when we had our class abilities instead of these "eSports PROGAMER" layouts. I have adapted as always, but I don't have to like it.
And I sure as hell don't like Battle High, nor Recuperate.

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Battle High only penalizes the players who refused to learn and accept the fact the Frontline is a Player vs Player mode; not Player vs Objective.
Objective is only an incentive to get Players to fight
If a player failed to understand that, s/he has no right to crying about unable to kill other BH players, especially post patch 4.1
Battle high is fine, this thread is just tear of players who focus on Objective over Player vs Player but refused to accept the fact of how wrong they are

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Battle High only penalizes the players who refused to learn and accept the fact the Frontline is a Player vs Player mode; not Player vs Objective.
Objective is only an incentive to get Players to fight
If a player failed to understand that, s/he has no right to crying about unable to kill other BH players, especially post patch 4.1
Battle high is fine, this thread is just tear of players who focus on Objective over Player vs Player but refused to accept the fact of how wrong they are

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That's an excuse and not what Battle High does at all.
Battle High incentives murderballs because it's the only way to stop people from spamming recuperate forever.

What you say, "Player vs Objective" is a fundamentally flawed misunderstanding of PvP.
There's been modes like Capture the Flag since forever and ever, where two teams were pitied against another in order to acquire the objective at hand.
FFXIV's system most closely resembles that of Unreal Tournament's Domination system where you need to capture specific points and hold them in order to gain points while the other team tries to take them back.

If you want, as you say, an incentive for players vs players to duke it out entirely; Then Remove Objectives Entirely.
Otherwise I'd say you need an incentive just to fight others: An equally flawed viewpoint of PvP because people who enjoy PvP don't need any reason to start bashing on each other.

Man BH is cool I gotten to max before and won about 100+ fl in first place. Trying to get that 200 wins in first place. You just gotta be smart. When u see big boi BH take them down with cc and focus them. Its hard sure but its rewarding when u delete them. Stop playing passively and plan out ur moves. Asking for BH to be removed is a skill issue at most and your playing bad in pvp at worse. Be smart and pick ur enemies to kill in pvp. Treat pvp as a game of chess or checkers and plan each attack accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Talamh

That's an excuse and not what Battle High does at all.
Battle High incentives murderballs because it's the only way to stop people from spamming recuperate forever.

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I think you got everything backward
When I said "an incentive", i refers to casual
Veterans do not need a reason to fight and they are very unlikely would complain about Battle High
Also, casuals just blame on BH as a scapegoat because they refuse to learn

Casuals clearly forgot that they are playing on a platform where SE on purposely strain veterans by giving casuals free access to Battle High
You do realize the idea of gain battle high from assist is a joke?
It is also what shorten the gap between casuals and veterans.

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Originally Posted by Talamh

That's an excuse and not what Battle High does at all.
Battle High incentives murderballs because it's the only way to stop people from spamming recuperate forever.

What you say, "Player vs Objective" is a fundamentally flawed misunderstanding of PvP.
There's been modes like Capture the Flag since forever and ever, where two teams were pitied against another in order to acquire the objective at hand.
FFXIV's system most closely resembles that of Unreal Tournament's Domination system where you need to capture specific points and hold them in order to gain points while the other team tries to take them back.

If you want, as you say, an incentive for players vs players to duke it out entirely; Then Remove Objectives Entirely.
Otherwise I'd say you need an incentive just to fight others: An equally flawed viewpoint of PvP because people who enjoy PvP don't need any reason to start bashing on each other.

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We had a pure pvp mode. It was called the Feast, and that got replaced entirely by Crystal Conflict.
Recuperate and battle high is a problem in itself. However, there are bigger problems than just those 2 that you've mentioned.
Recuperate is the way it is, because the devs wanted healing to be in the hands of the players and not so much the healing classes. The true problem is all of this being specifically being balanced around crystal conflict only. In fact, this is the main source of all of your frontline problems here.
As for battle high as far as I'm concerned there are too many changes that was made over the years that now makes battle high seem busted. The pvp calamity was one of them. Flipping the difficulty of team offense and defense without considering how that will affect frontlines and then increasing starting damage reduction to compensate for the changes that was made because everyone was instant dying...there's a problem if range classes needs damage reduction in order to play. They shouldn't need any at all...well, maybe dancer...nah. Frontlines feels like a moba mode since you have tanks and melees playing like they're bruisers. I haven't even included the AST LB being stacked on top of a BH5 frontliner...everything needs to be worked from the ground up before we considered doing anything to BH, because it's all just power creep to me last expansion. Lower DR for frontliners, get rid of all DR for all range classes, and nerf base damage overall, especially the AOE ones. Start there, and then work from there.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Man BH is cool I gotten to max before and won about 100+ fl in first place. Trying to get that 200 wins in first place. You just gotta be smart. When u see big boi BH take them down with cc and focus them. Its hard sure but its rewarding when u delete them. Stop playing passively and plan out ur moves. Asking for BH to be removed is a skill issue at most and your playing bad in pvp at worse. Be smart and pick ur enemies to kill in pvp. Treat pvp as a game of chess or checkers and plan each attack accordingly.

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If I want 100 BH, I'll just play SMN and never die.
PvP isn't a chess game, and chess has always been a terrible analogy.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I think you got everything backward
When I said "an incentive", i refers to casual
Veterans do not need a reason to fight and they are very unlikely would complain about Battle High
Also, casuals just blame on BH as a scapegoat because they refuse to learn

Casuals clearly forgot that they are playing on a platform where SE on purposely strain veterans by giving casuals free access to Battle High
You do realize the idea of gain battle high from assist is a joke?
It is also what shorten the gap between casuals and veterans.

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Never seen a bigger attempt at trying to backtrack while at the same time trying to jab back.
I've said mine already and stand by it.

You trying to spin it into a "Veterans vs Casuals" now is just, hilarious ^^

I shall merely just say that we don't see eye to eye and that's that.

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Originally Posted by Talamh

Remove Battle High.
Remove Recuperate.

There's no reason why every class should have the survivability of a tank through copious amount of sprinting and recuperating.
Elixir is one thing, but the others need to go.

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I think this is also coupled with the fact that in FLs tanks/melee have a 60% damage reduction which allows them to survive situations they normally wouldn't.

I understand it was implemented to fix the “Mass SMN LB Abuse” but now we have “Mass DRK/DRG LB Abuse”. One problem “fixed” just lead to another issue.

I don’t agree with removing battle high because I believe it provides incentive to PvP instead of just capping objectives all game. But I do agree that recuperate and guard are some of the worst features they added to PvP.

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Originally Posted by Rinku421

I think this is also coupled with the fact that in FLs tanks/melee have a 60% damage reduction which allows them to survive situations they normally wouldn't.

I understand it was implemented to fix the “Mass SMN LB Abuse” but now we have “Mass DRK/DRG LB Abuse”. One problem “fixed” just lead to another issue.

I don’t agree with removing battle high because I believe it provides incentive to PvP instead of just capping objectives all game. But I do agree that recuperate and guard are some of the worst features they added to PvP.

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Yeah its really fun, arent we casters doing less damage on objects as well?

Just sucks lol


Today ive run into one of those premade groups, you could tell from the few DK running with the same healers and dps all the time, always ast/sage with dragoon and whatever, all on maxed out battle high just from feeding on the other team... think of the mechanic what you want, but its just unfair the other two can feed each other battle high without any way for us to prevent it, unless we literally run into death traps...

I started playing the game in 2018. My first impression of PVP was 'wow this is actually a lot better than I thought. But I feel like it would be much better without Battle High.' Around there I looked up if anyone had the same thought, and found multiple posts dating back to like, 2015 or something lmao.

I don't think outright removing it would work well. I understand why it's there. But I can't help but feel that the best option would be to halve the stat gain, remove the healing aspect, or both. You all know it. The good players become absolutely unkillable, but worse than that, I feel like it rewards too-safe play. I enjoy being a sort of support tank/bruiser, dashing in to distract ~5 people for far longer than I should, and yeah, trying to get out, but if I die, no big deal. In almost all team-based strategy games that's a very useful strategy and role, but giving 4 points to multiple people, and myself not only limiting my damage but also my healing... It's just not worth it. I can't deny that the ideal is to just toss out ranged attacks, only take the safest possible fights, eat every retreat on the cheek until half my entire alliance has BH5 and we steamroll everyone, because a player with BH5 is damn near unkillable and leads to more battle highs for everyone around them too.

It very simply overly incentivizes ultra-safe play, and makes anyone who doesn't play like that not only worthless but outright detrimental to their team. You can argue there are proper ways to play around it, and you're right, but I think it is very, very plainly bad for the way the game plays.

I don't like how they buffed its generation recently with the reintroduction of Secure and the changes to assists/kills (even if I do think kills shouldn't reward more because there is little skill but luck there as well as the job being played). You don't have to even work for it anymore. Everybody is at BH2-3 already half the time if not more. The reward is just not there for me anymore.

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Originally Posted by Valence

https://i.imgur.com/9nhtOvE.png

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Appreciation for the comic. That's all.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

I think having the general populus interact with pvp more will improve their skills naturally. Most people spend 15min in 1 match and that's it. It's not enough time to learn a job.

I think the extended playtime of pvp will also push people towards caring more.

Also want to push towards rewarding performance and wins more, so coupling these things would improve the overall pvp community

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15 minutes is long time when you're the team getting pummeled over and over by a team of BH5. At that point, people are throwing themselves into the fire just to get it over with, nevermind trying to learn how to hit your buttons. BH is just too much of a lopsided advantage.

Correct. And removing the third team.

I am just gonna copy paste my previous response in another post, because frankly I think anyone who suggests BH removal is either a troll or a new player.


"I like Battle High.
I like that it gives a game a different dimension. Not only you need to see the score, but also you need to remember which team is the strongest, and act accordingly. The interplay between those is what sets the winning team apart and makes frontlines fun. If you can get good battlehigh and good score - the 2nd and 3rd should make your life a living hell. Of course as some mention 1st would opportunity to retreat and strike back, but 3rd and 2nd also have that opportunity to counter.

Additionally if the strongest team is actually in 3rd and spent the whole game farming BH, you also need to be mindful that they can turn the game around by strength. This is the fun bit!

I like that it serves as a kind of a memory of your performance within a game - if you and your team are doing well - you get rewarded within the game. It encourages PVP and without battlehigh you could just all sit still and wait for nodes - and it would basically be the same. Without BH - there is no frontlines, IMO.

What would I change in BH?"


I think current change needed is a slight adjustment. My friends suggested lowering BH % difference to 8% buff, so that total is 40% at BH5. And I tend to agree with them.
Also: suggestion that remove % healing buff or decreases % defence just doesn't work for BH5 vs BH5 gameplay, as it would turn everyone into glass cannons.

I agree with the idea that people who suggest BH removal are either forum trolls or new players.
The original BH was a reward for performing well in PvP and functioned like COD's killstreak system; however, the concept of BH has shifted from a performance reward to the idea of assisting weak players in BH version 2.0.
PvP veterans will get kills with or without BH because they have superior experience, situational awareness, and a better understanding of their job.
BH 2.0 now protects new or weak players against PvP veterans so they can have a better Frontline experience.