Held Hostage in the last Dawntrail Trial

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Apples and oranges there; A job being dumb/easy to play is not the main point. Right now, healers will complain about wanting more DPS options, which means they don't need to focus on their primary role (Healing) because it's easy to keep the party alive, especially with a tank that doesn't really take a lot of damage outside of specific things.

If a healer was actually stressing to keep the party up (like oldschool 2.0/3.0 job design), less people will play the job casually, meaning less in the pool for roulettes etc.

In 2.0 your main magic casts were Cure 1/2 with free Cure-2's being a way to keep MP. You would use the free-be instant stuff being more for emergencies or weave with Lucid Dreaming to keep MP reserves up. Couple that with stoneskin management, and it was easy to run out of MP if you just spammed Regen/Cure 2/Medica 2. This was also a time when you would actually sleep was actually a thing if MP ran out.

Because of that complexity, healer was pretty fun, but it was also very intimidating. It was almost ALWAYS adventurer in need. Now it leans much more towards Tank (compared to 2-3.0 anyway). And you'd never see DPS in need, but now it's regular on pretty much any 8-man content (anything from Trials down on the Duty Finder). At least on my server block.

That's part of why Tank has been buffed so much, and healer given so many free cast/instant spell: to make sure people are playing the roles that are mostly in need.

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Now to answer your actual quote, I don't honestly know if that would even be the case really, but based on my past experience I would bet healer numbers would go down because generally players are lazy/want to play the game "easily".

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But that’s my entire point, your comment basically sums up why you believe that healer was more intimidating so less people played it, but the surveys show healers are rarer now than they used to be

Dumbing the healers down didn’t help them, it just drove people away

Imagine a lack of a failstate breeding a sense of entitlement amongst tanks.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Imagine a lack of a failstate breeding a sense of entitlement amongst tanks.

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Cause and effect. Create the ideal conditions for an organism to thrive, and it will thrive.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I'd double down on my stance:

Give Tanks a hardcast raise (like healers have, no swiftcast)

THEN, give ALL remaining DPS a hardcast raise, but make it melee range. (Call it First Aid or something, make it a long recast time if need be)

Items are fine, but having it as an ability means it won't be a point of contention later (people mad you forgot one) and I personally just don't want to dedicate a slot of my bag to a niche item.

I would add though, if they added raise for all, that phoenix down should be instant-cast, and usable in combat as a kind of pinch-save move.

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You don't fix an issue by adding more features to the job that already has more that that it should - and even DPS to some extent. The reason that some people won't include DPS now is probably because the DPS don't yet know the mechanics and/or they aren't yet geared and/or those that have mitigation aren't using it .

Sure, phoenix downs could be allowed in combat- maybe with 1 use every half hour or hour. However, healers could also get their own tools like a self-raise- which I have used in other MMOs- as well as having their skills and possibly armour revised - at least in other games where I had healers, I had higher HP, magic and physical defense than my casters. In at least one game, I had personal shields on long CDs (like a tank, but not as strong) in addition to my group shields.

Give healers more sustain and ability to tank. Give tanks more healing and rez capabilites and much less mitigation and sustain as they are less vulnerable to die.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

It's a multi-facet problem, and nerfing sustain is just one part.

If tanks loose sustain, healer gets more pressure, so less people will play healer, which will cause roulette delays. The devs are well aware and that's why job design is as it is. The #1 priority is to give new players as short a wait as possible for any particular duty.

So, in addition adjusting mitigation/sustain, they really just need to allow healers to be able to die without causing a party wipe (or the tank to solo everything). An answer for that is giving everyone raise, albeit raise with restrictions (like a long cast, melee range or long cooldown)

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Giving tanks and more jobs a raise would make healers completely irrelevant and possibly even undesirable. Personally, it would make me to never want to queue as healer again. No, it’s the tank survivability and self sustainability that’s broken. It’s not normal for tanks to be able to clear current group content without a party. It should not be possible.

There is a serious balance problem and the solution isn’t to give a rez to tanks nor it is to buff healer defenses as suggested by someone. It’s ok to wipe when several people are not yet familiar with the content. Making things easier and people practically invulnerable isn’t the way.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Maybe be more considerate?

Holding a party hostage because tank can sustain itself (especially WAR) throughout the entire run is considered griefing and against ToS. It's not rocket science.

People die and wipe because mistakes happen, even more so because people panic easily.

Time is currency. Just because you can sustain yourself as WAR or PLD for 30 minutes, doesn't mean everyone can waste their time like you do. People have things to do outside the game, and that time is limited. If you can waste your time, good on you, but majority of people cannot.

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The fact a tank can survive a fight meant for 8 people at all is telling how overtuned they are, and I don't want to hear anything about "it's casual content so it doesn't matter."

The biggest problem that is the dungeons can't be tuned correctly with how the game is right now, so anyone that isn't a tank suffers for it. What I mean by this is that, because of tanks current self-sustain and hp pool(imo), mechanics have to be tuned in such a way that actually hurts the tank. The problem becomes, if you aren't a tank with all the self-sustains in the world, it becomes a problem for your HP. A raid wide? Ya sorry we needed to tune that to be able to hit everyone enough so while it does 65% of your HP bar damage to you which you have to spend most of your won resources to heal or the healer does their thing, it only does 40% to tank which can quickly gain back from the use of one ability (dirty example but ya).

Personally, I really find this to be the issue. It's a weird trinity anymore. Instead of the Tanks needing healers to stay up to pull aggro from the party, its actually the DPS that needs the healers to stay alive. So the question becomes then, "is it better to run 3 dps and speed up killing the packs before the tanks mit's run out, or is it better to run with a healer to have less damage but help keep people alive".

Now in the example by the OP, I really think it is cringe for the tanks to keep up with the trial after a party wipe at 50% no matter the circumstance. 20%, ya I can see peoples points a bit, but 50%? I just find that to be a waste of time and its really not impressive in the least bit. Like, congratulation, you got abilities that make you take less damage and can heal yourself, good for you~ I agree with other poster's here that there should be a soft enrage or rule into the game added that if X percentage of the party is down, the boss gets a major buff.

It's like people aren't allowed to fail anymore to learn :/ such a weird world.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Maybe be more considerate?

Holding a party hostage because tank can sustain itself (especially WAR) throughout the entire run is considered griefing and against ToS. It's not rocket science.

People die and wipe because mistakes happen, even more so because people panic easily.

Time is currency. Just because you can sustain yourself as WAR or PLD for 30 minutes, doesn't mean everyone can waste their time like you do. People have things to do outside the game, and that time is limited. If you can waste your time, good on you, but majority of people cannot.

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Making an active, genuine effort to kill the boss is not "griefing". The ToS specifically prohibits "offensive expressions" which includes "Expressions that compel a playing style".

I am sorry that you failed to prepare adequate time to complete a duty; however, it's not my problem, so please stop dying. If I as a tank were to deliberately die, the run would take even longer because people would just die again and again. Sit back and enjoy the carry.

They should add enrages to trials if only one tank is left standing or similar conditions for extended amounts of time.

Although tanks shouldn't be able to survive solo indefinitely in the first place, seems like tanks are just broken design-wise.

People saying "don't die" when they might be on DPS. If the healers die, and the tank is only smart enough to keep themselves alive, non-raising DPS can't do anything. The simple fact is, tanks have WAY too much sustain, and most fights are way too lenient on a single player. Of course the simple fix would be to implement a "vote wipe".

I didn't read through all the comments thoroughly but has anyone who has had such an experience reported it to the GMs?

In this particular case, it's less about the GMs taking action against the tanks but rather the GMs providing feedback to the developers that this is getting to be a common occurrence and source of complaints.

If it starts showing up in GM tickets as a regular issue, that might lead to the developers looking more closely at tank design.

I've been lucky myself. While there have been a couple of occasions where everyone but the tank was dead, the tank has chosen to die unless the boss was close to dead and everyone was good with the tank doing the last 5% or whatever amount. But if I do end up in the "hostage" experience, I won't hesitate to report it if the party asks the tank to die and they refuse.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

Making an active, genuine effort to kill the boss is not "griefing". The ToS specifically prohibits "offensive expressions" which includes "Expressions that compel a playing style".

I am sorry that you failed to prepare adequate time to complete a duty; however, it's not my problem, so please stop dying. If I as a tank were to deliberately die, the run would take even longer because people would just die again and again. Sit back and enjoy the carry.

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I would say that you have that backwards. A tank that prevents the rest of the party from actively participating in a duty, in a way in which there is absolutely no way in which any party member can prevent the tank from doing so - is compelling every other player to play the way that the tank wants them to play. Now personally, when I want to play like that- I go with trusts. They don't care how many times, for example, I get yeeted off the arena when I'm learning (which is sadly quite a few). If I want to see what a tank can achieve I can solo-queue on mine and spend/waste my own time.

I usually see a party only wipe once then go on to complete a duty, and then there's usually some sense of achievement. I have (very) occasionally seen more than one wipe, but no, I don't want to "sit back and enjoy the carry".

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Originally Posted by Alyko

Making an active, genuine effort to kill the boss is not "griefing". The ToS specifically prohibits "offensive expressions" which includes "Expressions that compel a playing style".

I am sorry that you failed to prepare adequate time to complete a duty; however, it's not my problem, so please stop dying. If I as a tank were to deliberately die, the run would take even longer because people would just die again and again. Sit back and enjoy the carry.

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This is a wild take and I am always quick to say things are a skill issue. A new player trying to learn a boss fight and play the game would and should hate your guts for that. It's quicker if the boss is about to die but I can confidently say you have not been in many situations where it was in fact quicker to let your party be dead on the floor while you downed a boss solo. If they were <10% HP, sure. Anything higher and you are trolling.

There are few ways to recover from a death in combat and normal content is not balanced in such a way that tanks would die in these fights. I'm not sure why you think abusing these two facts makes you the carry of your group. Your DPS will almost always be doing much more than you.

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Originally Posted by tansykatarn

I just queued into the last trial of the most recent expansion for the very first time and all was going well until most of the party died from a raidwide. only one of our tanks survived and decided they would solo it while holding us hostage. we all pleaded for them to jump off the platform so we could continue together but they said no and to suck it up. they proceeded to solo the entire fight, and there was no way we could leave the fight or vote abandon. all those options just would not trigger in combat.

it is not okay for someone to be able to hold us hostage like that. with all 7 other party members dead, there should be a majority rules or a setting where if more than 6 or so players have been dead for more than 5-10 minutes, the fight resets.

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Thank you so much for taking the time to bring your situation forward.

I hope more people continue to share their experiences with this situation.

It's my hope that if we continue bringing this problem front and center, the community team will eventually take notice and bring it to the devs attention!

So let's keep at it! ^_^

Had this experience before. I tried to vote abandon or kick the tank that was griefing but they would pull immediately as soon as we respawn and put us in combat, making it not possible. The system just does not work as intended. It does not make sense why these actions cannot be taken while in combat.

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Originally Posted by Karious

There's already two active threads on this topic.

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Ordinary players who dont talk on the forums are reaching out individually because the poor balance of the game results in sitiations where literally one player gets to play while the others are forced to sit and watch for 10 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Ascended_Demon

I said this in the enrage in normal content but I wanted to put it here too so more might see it. You can leave instances during combat and this should still apply even if you are dead. Granted yes there can be the lockout but I think that would be better than being forced to witness someone else's desire to flex at the expense of everyone else's time.

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Better yet allow voite to remove to be useable in combat, and remove the problem tank

might i suggest fishing instead of the boss fight minigame

if healer are not needed, why do they even exist? but blame the player I guess lmao

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

if healer are not needed, why do they even exist? but blame the player I guess lmao

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Yep. Time to nerf tank heals into the ground.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Better yet allow voite to remove to be useable in combat, and remove the problem tank

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You know what? I'd be down for this.

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Originally Posted by Karious

There's already two active threads on this topic.

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If there's one thing to know, it's that the forum is an echo chamber. People will start parroting opinions of other things they see trending on page 1.

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Originally Posted by Karious

There's already two active threads on this topic.

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So? All the more it needs to be brought up because it's no longer a one-off problem.

Read: Bad trinity design.

this is honestly why more fights need soft enrages like M4 does

Unfortunately, I do not want to say why.. but the FFXIV community has changed a lot over the last year. Nobody would do this a few years ago.. but this is becoming more and more common. I think FF is becoming a dumping ground for all the players from other games that have gone into decline, these folks think this behavior is ok since their old game made this normal.

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Originally Posted by SushiOishiiii

Unfortunately, I do not want to say why.. but the FFXIV community has changed a lot over the last year. Nobody would do this a few years ago.. but this is becoming more and more common. I think FF is becoming a dumping ground for all the players from other games that have gone into decline, these folks think this behavior is ok since their old game made this normal.

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I'd like to think that the problem is only NA datacenters.
I've been p[laying in JP datacenters, whether the tanks solo the whole boss from 30ish percent or wipe/redo. Nobody really cares, they just get on with it, move on, and not think too much on a minor inconvenience.
If in the worst case happens like 3-4+ wipes on a trial, normal raid, mentor roulette and raid finder, what typically happens is a [Vote Abandon]. Everyone just forgets it happened.

7.10 Patchnotes: Warriors
On using Fell cleave the character will be glamoured into the form of Poochie for 3 minutes. This effect will stack and will not fade on leaving the instance.

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Originally Posted by AddictedToWitches

this is honestly why more fights need soft enrages like M4 does

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Could make it like Criterion Savage. If the fight drags on, boss gets buffed to where autos are tankbuster levels.

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Originally Posted by SushiOishiiii

Unfortunately, I do not want to say why.. but the FFXIV community has changed a lot over the last year. Nobody would do this a few years ago.. but this is becoming more and more common. I think FF is becoming a dumping ground for all the players from other games that have gone into decline, these folks think this behavior is ok since their old game made this normal.

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This is just straight up wrong. Tanks have been doing this for years. I distinctly remember several instances of tanks duoing Omega M/F.

I was held hostage by Wuk Lamat.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

Making an active, genuine effort to kill the boss is not "griefing". The ToS specifically prohibits "offensive expressions" which includes "Expressions that compel a playing style".

I am sorry that you failed to prepare adequate time to complete a duty; however, it's not my problem, so please stop dying. If I as a tank were to deliberately die, the run would take even longer because people would just die again and again. Sit back and enjoy the carry.

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Nice troll post

Could be better though and I'd imagine it would be with all that extra time you save playing the game on very easy.

Then again maybe you don't have time because you're wasting 30 mins on a boss being too egotistical and immature to just help others get it done via simple communication.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

if I queue for a trial like this as DPS or healer and make a mistake and die, and only a tank remains, there's 2 options:

1) Queues for this current trial suck, in which case, I alt tab and go watch some Youtube
2) Queues are okay for me in this case, screw this tank I take the penalty and requeue and try not to die this time

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That's the thing, you've got to wait for the tank to wipe or clear before you can even leave.

I'm a tank main as of late, a lot and I just don't get the appeal of very slowly chipping away at a boss solo for 5+ minutes. It's extremely boring. I don't get any enjoyment out of it. It's one think if the boss's health is low enough that I feel like it's probably faster now for me to solo it rather than resetting the fight, but if not...

Maybe I'll give it 15 seconds of solo fighting to get a quick gauge of how much DPS I'm doing vs the remaining health bar, but if it looks slow, I just say "nah," and let it kill me or deathwall so the fight can restart.

It's the classic "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."