Dawntrail is a good Story but not a Great Story. (SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I remember feeling hella whiplash in SB due to two stories not being given time to simmer at all before being sent across the sea to the next area and rinse and repeat the entire starting MSQ. I remember not giving a crap about any character but Yotsuyu or Zenos. I remember these forums grilling the MSQ for terrible pacing (and choppiness of the story) and Lyse with vitriol nonstop. DT definitely handles the two story halves FAR better than SB (pre - postMSQ patches) ever did.

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- Maybe SB had more 4s or 5s, but it's DT that has 1s and 2s.

- In SB, they may be moment I just shrug, shake my head and move on. DT has plenty moment that actually made me want to scream at the screen.

- In SB, there was no character that I wished I would never see again. In DT, even if I can never speak with WL ever again, it's already too much.

- In SB, there were plenty characters I wished I would see more like Sadu, Gotetsu, Yotsetsu, Hien, even "little sun". In DT, there is no character that intrigued. While they are not WL level, but if I never see them again, I can't say will miss them either.


So yeah, I was nowhere as pissed in SB as I am in DT. I feel the "Sphene, listen to me!" scene is so bad, it'll enough to balance for 1/3 of the bad scene in SB by itself.

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It's fascinating that the forums are actually defending SB MSQ and Lyse after all the shit talking that occurred back then.

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Then I envy you. If seeing people with different opinion enough to fascinate you, then you must be living your life in constant fascination. :)

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Originally Posted by Ketojan

Isn’t this forum post a personal opinion? Or are you and OP stating a fact? Also do you deny that Thancreds story of grief and how he handled that with Ryne in SHB was not human? Because while I didn’t care for the man, it was written in a way that made me actually feel something for him. Or do we not care because it’s my opinion?

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Yeah IMO the scions were really well written in SHB and EW especially. Not as much in DT where they didn't really get as much to do, the Twins especially really suffered in DT imo, but pre DT they were pretty well written and Krile when the story actually does focus on her in DT gets some great moments too.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

How did it change her though? She started out very naive, thinking she knew everything about her people, and wanting peace, love, and happiness for them. She finished being naive, knowing a few facts of her people, and wanting peace, love, and happiness for them. Apart from "learning of other peoples cultures", what exactly did she learn? How did these experiences shape who she became? Because from where I'm standing shes very much the same person she was before her journey. Her experiences didnt really shape her. You can almost see Koana and Wuk Lamat as two sides of the same coin. Where Koana learned to understand and accept the different cultures of Tural, Wuk Lamat didnt really learn to accept that some things need to change. She just filled in the culture gaps in her head that she already thought she had filled.

It would have been a strong moment of growth for her to throw in the towel to let Koana win the rite. Saying "I understand that you are a changed man. I believe you understand the type of leader that Tural needs. We both know that I dont have what it takes to lead a nation. My dream of being dawnservant, with my aspirations for the Turali people of peace, love and happiness are so childish. They arent a strong foundation for national policies". But no. The smart one throws in the towel.. which I dont think he would do since Wuk is a bit of an airhead. Not what Tural needs at all after his own personal growth. Tural is lucky enough that Wuk Lamat recognises this, so she offers him the job of Head of Resolve.

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I would argue you've missed the entire point of the Rite of Succession and Galool Ja Ja's entire test of each of the candidates, and not because of a lack of explanation, but because of your own lack of understanding.

It is inferred what specifically Wuk Lamat and Koana need to learn to become Dawnservant throughout the entirety of the MSQ.

Wuk Lamat -

- Her test is two-fold in understanding the culture of the people beyond what she has come to understand in the capital as referenced by her father. To understand the roots and history / culture of her people, each of the races/ societies. The feats are meant to guide her through this by being designed around "understanding" the why each are the way they are and how it plays into the mold of Tural as a whole. Secondly, it is to test her mantle, specifically to overcome things that she is squeemish / scared of / afraid to approach. A leader must stand tall and approach the issues head on even when you don't like it. She absolutely becomes much more fearless by the turn of the story half of pretty much everything while equally still carrying the lesson of understanding along the way in her approach to Sphene. So her experiences even into the attack on Tural, absolutely do shape her.

Koana -

- Is meant to learn that the culture of the Turali tribes is very important and must be respected while also that entirely depending on outside technological advances for solutions isn't immediately the solution that his people even want. He learns this lesson, by time of the defense of Tural, by instead of depending on outside tech, he calls and coordinates each regions defenses of local militias in the defense effort. Galool Ja's lesson also being that Turalians are already strong, united.


Having said that, the story rounds out both of them by making them EXACTLY dual leaders, which benefits literally everyone. Your version of "how it should be " would not only invalidate multiple levels of MSQ story, but I suspect infuriate even more people because now you'd have one or two leaders, neither of which who want to be Dawnservant having to defend against Zoraal Ja and Sphene in the second half. Not to mention, Koana isn't really written to being a super active combat person either compared to all the other candidates. You think Koana was beating Zoraal Ja? The cowboy kid in Shaloani got better gun feats on screen.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Then I envy you. If seeing people with different opinion enough to fascinate you, then you must be living your life in constant fascination. :)

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You got it twisted. It's not the fact that people have a different opinion or not. That's fine, it's all subjective.

It's that the forums as a whole are trying to do a 180 after hating SB / Lyse for literal years and now that the DT hate train is the popular convo, with the exact complaints, people are trying to suddenly make it seem like SB was this fantastic story for MSQ, and Lyse is a fantastic well built character.

That is not only disingenuous, it's alright BS. I will continue to call that out nonstop. If you want to hate DT that's fine, but we not about to try and position SB MSQ / Lyse as great, when both were rough at best and the only things most people remember about the SB MSQ or Lyse as a character, was that both got better during the post patch cycle and the Yotsuyu/ Tsuyu storyline.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I feel the "Sphene, listen to me!" scene is so bad, it'll enough to cover 1/3 of the faults in SB by itself.

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And that Szene in the middle of a Trial is the only valid reason for the Hate on Wuk Lamat. If it wasn't for that szene no one would give so much hat towerds Wuk Lamat. And yes i do not like this szene either. It stops unnecesery the fight and have to wait to long and the english voiceacting is of. The german and japanes are way better and french is ok.

The biggest issue is that a lot of character growth was fairly inorganic, this was entirely the case for Wuk Lamat, and those that did have some organic growth it was sudden and not really explored enough. The direction they were taking Zarool and Bakool were OK, but was insufficiently explored, IMO. Aside from this, it was an OK premise, with an extremely bad presentation, accompanied by an obnoxious main character that absorbed far too much of the story. (They tried to do the whole we're mentoring Wuk, but they utterly failed in this regard)

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

The biggest issue is that a lot of character growth was fairly inorganic, this was entirely the case for Wuk Lamat, and those that did have some organic growth it was sudden and not really explored enough. The direction they were taking Zarool and Bakool were OK, but was insufficiently explored, IMO. Aside from this, it was an OK premise, with an extremely bad presentation, accompanied by an obnoxious main character that absorbed far too much of the story. (They tried to do the whole we're mentoring Wuk, but they utterly failed in this regard)

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Yeah. Bakool Jaja would have really benefited from either A. tweaking how Valigarmanda gets out so it's not just Bakool stupidly releaseing the most powerful monster in the continent's history for petty reasons or B. Put more emphasis into his actual redemption arc. The rest of what he did, while bad, was on the level I could buy into a somewhat fast turn around but that action really should have had more consequence for him in the story.

Zarool Ja really needed more development. More scenes between him and Wuk or him and his father etc. I had the same thought during his trial when the shades of his followers and family showed up as i did when Gosetsu showed up in Yotsuyu's trial. "Wow. This would be a really powerful moment if I had any investment in this character whatsoever."

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

If you compare it to HW, ShB and EW its not good. If you compare ist to ARR and SB it is good and better.

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Correction if you compare it to ARR or SB it's still not good. It's just a bad story all the way around, and is easily the worst in the serious.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

Correction if you compare it to ARR or SB it's still not good. It's just a bad story all the way around, and is easily the worst in the serious.

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DT certainly has its issues, but still wasn't as bad as SB for me. Not universally so in every way, but as a whole.

In hindsight, I feel Lyse was much more successful than Wuk Lamat, being similar cases.

Dawntrail's 1st part had a good premise for a 'low stakes story', but is like giving a professional camera to a person who only knows how to use their smartphone to take pictures.

Even if we look past Wuk Lamat's issues, the whole thing had SO much potential if they had built the 6.4/5 patches to actually get to know Wuk Lamat and Koana (The void storyline didn't need that much time tbh) so you could decide in 7.0 who you'll follow (alongside with Krile). We'd get split "what if the WoL chooses..." scenarios that could be replayed in NG+. And it makes sense even if we didn't change the outcome, since both of them get to be rulers anyway.

The second part was good, but by then we are already so worn out by how bad the MSQ has been in a boring 'technical aspect' (get information, fetch quests, useless cutscenes, etc) that it just hurts the bigger picture.

I'll also say that Shaloaani was COMPLETELY mishandled as a zone. It's the pure definition of filler and knowing that there's Solution 9 coming soon doesn't make it any more enjoyable. Most of Shaloaani's zone plot (not just the last bit) should be the actual warzone between Alexandria and Tural, and that's how you get to bond with the different people there. To me it makes no sense that the Vanguard even exists as a passageway when they can just send airships through the dome - if Vanguard was indeed the only way through it would justify a ground invasion through Shaloaani first.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

Correction if you compare it to ARR or SB it's still not good. It's just a bad story all the way around, and is easily the worst in the serious.

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Considering even the devs had to redesign ARR not once but TWICE, to make it palatable, going to say neither the devs nor the public agrees. I would also rate DT MSQ over the pre patch SB MSQ, simply put because it was hard to get invested into either side of orthard or ala mhigo when you are constantly being yoyo'd between. With DT, I thought the first half was too much world building and kind of a slog but the second half was far better on par with FFXIV brand and way more thought provoking then either side of SB.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Considering even the devs had to redesign ARR not once but TWICE, to make it palatable, going to say neither the devs nor the public agrees. I would also rate DT MSQ over the pre patch SB MSQ, simply put because it was hard to get invested into either side of orthard or ala mhigo when you are constantly being yoyo'd between. With DT, I thought the first half was too much world building and kind of a slog but the second half was far better on par with FFXIV brand and way more thought provoking then either side of SB.

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While I agree that SB suffered from the region split, it's not really 'constant yoyoing.' We do the first part of the ala mhigo stuff, then go do the entirety of the far eastern stuff in one stretch, and then come back to do the rest of the ala mhigo stuff in a rush. We only really dip into the far east and back once in the base game, and then once in the post patches by doing ala mhigo in 4.1 then focusing on doma in .2 and .3 before going back west.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

And that Szene in the middle of a Trial is the only valid reason for the Hate on Wuk Lamat. If it wasn't for that szene no one would give so much hat towerds Wuk Lamat. And yes i do not like this szene either. It stops unnecesery the fight and have to wait to long and the english voiceacting is of. The german and japanes are way better and french is ok.

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No, I believe you got that backward.

That scene is actually not as bad as most people (myself included) make it out to be.

The reason it is perceived so negatively because it was an accumulation of fatigue and frustration about the character up to that point. It's like the last drop of water that finally broke the dam for many people.

That scene simply cement the feeling of "WE NEVER GONNA ESCAPE WUK LAMAT" that many of us was already dreading at that point. Almost every single scenes or private moment we have with any other NPCs, WL would always insert herself into it.

+ The only time her father finally got a chance for what appeared to be the only serious talk in the entire first half, it was interrupted by Wuk Lamat.

+ When Koana ask us to come with him because he has something to give us, Wuk Lamat had to steal that so she can be the one presented us the reward.

+ When our fellow scion Y'tshola wanted to talk to us, somehow instead of contacting us, she contacted Wuk who standing next to us so Wuk could then relay back to us.

+ When she wasn't with us at Earthshrine, it's because we're trying to rescue her.

+ When she wasn't with us at Shaaloani, we're still constantly reminded of her presence. We have to help her nurse maid, find her present, and resolve the quest in certain way because "it's what Wuk Lamat would do" (CRINGE!)

+ When Krile was trying to study the history of her people. WL just had to act bored and rushed thing.

+ When Cacihua finally depart, guess who just have to insert herself to deliver the last line?

And more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more.

^ if the above sentence annoy you in the slightest, multiply that annoyance by a 1000 factor and that's how much WL annoyed me.


The thing you need to understand is that ... in isolation, most of the things I mentioned probably felt like nitpicking. And it's .... true. Individually they're not that big of a deal, you can even argue some of it makes sense. The problem is ... the game bombarding the players constantly with these things over the course of 30h ... that's why many players just blew up at the last scene. It's less about she's stealing the spotlight, it's about she's stealing the spotlight again for the 100th time. At that point, my reaction wasn't even about the fight itself, but more like: "HOLY ****, CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT TO MYSELF?!?!? GET LOST, GET OUT OF MY FACE AND NEVER COME BACK, PLEASEEEEEEE". On the other hand, if Lyse showed up and steal the show at the end of the SB MSQ, I probably would still be annoyed, but the degree of anger would not be anywhere close. So when I said DT pissed me off far more than SB ever would, that's the kind of thing I meant. Like ... did you remember anyone getting angry when Gaia showed up to rescue Ryne in Eden?


Edit: also FYI, I went through the MSQ 4 times. The first was in Japanese, the 2nd and 4th were in English and the 3rd was in French. The non-English dud did not make WL better, they just made her less insufferable, at least in my own experience.

The story is bad, the plot elements are extremely poor, your motivation is non-existent, the scions involvement is inconsequential, and your agency and involvement is at an all time low. You are there to beat things into submission, your actual feelings in the story mean nothing, and everyone in the story is there to put Wuk Lamat up. Every single other story in 14 has had flawed characters, problems that needed to be solved and multiple and DIVERSE characters of multiple CULTURES to involve yourself in without having everyone shove it in your face.

Many characters even lament needing to rely on YOU so much, it's a heavy burden. None of this, literally none of this is present in Dawntrail. Wuk is very happy to just use you in every situation then take full credit and glory afterwards. They treat every zone and every peoples' as an almost utopia compared to Eorzea, it's down right insulting with how much we have been through and seen with every other city by this point. The story, the characters, the zone, the GAME, the everything has literally no bite. There isn't even a single moment that has any real lament or tension. I think back to ARR, and even a subplot like Eda and her husband dying is far more thought provoking and feeling inducing than any single moment in all of Dawntrail where they artificially try to fish emotion from you the player while earning none of it.

The MSQ sucks, the story is poorly paced, poorly thought out, and terribly written. It's an extreme injustice to every single scion, especially Krile, and treats you the WoL player as a tool. This is unforgiveable. The raid in contrast has been thoroughly enjoyable and is more inline with what i expected from at least some of the MSQ, so i haven't given up hope for the game. But to forgive, and let go this extreme oversight of poor story telling in a game with 10 years of good to amazing service is going to cause much much worse problems than telling them the truth of the matter.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Considering even the devs had to redesign ARR not once but TWICE, to make it palatable, going to say neither the devs nor the public agrees. I would also rate DT MSQ over the pre patch SB MSQ, simply put because it was hard to get invested into either side of orthard or ala mhigo when you are constantly being yoyo'd between. With DT, I thought the first half was too much world building and kind of a slog but the second half was far better on par with FFXIV brand and way more thought provoking then either side of SB.

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The Majority of the Public currently disagrees with your take. As the reviews are in and DT is scoring lower than ARR in customer reviews.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

The thing you're responding to is also an opinion, so the concept of one thing being "better" than another literally can't be "accurate" or "inaccurate."

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This is just a weirdo post-facts mondernist viewpoint where we can't tell anyone they are wrong.

Your TASTES are perfectly valid, you can say "I like this" for any reason that is real to you and that is fine. What you can't do is say "this is good". You are trying to argue that "See Spot Run" is superior literature to the Iliad or The Lord of The Rings or King Lear. Your deconstruction consists of saying "all arguments are just your opinion". That is not how arguments work.

Dawntrail had the POTENTIAL to be a good story. There are good ideas in it. The setup of exploring a new continent and playing a game set up to collect things as we learn about the people of this new land and follow the clues to find a "lost city of gold" is a good hook. The problem is in the execution and details:

- Established characters acting like cardboard cutouts of themselves
- A new protag who dominates every scene at the expense of all the other characters
- Flat locals with little to no conflict among any of them, or conflict that is solved so easily as to make it feel trivial

And probably more, that's just what springs to mind. Would the story have been spectacular had this been fixed? Probably not, but I don't need it to be a masterpiece, I just wanted it to be as good as Stormblood at least (recently replayed it on an alt and was pleasantly surprised by how well I enjoyed myself).

The second half also has the makings of a good story, but trips and falls flat on its face on the execution once more. Setup: Another shard (?) merges with the Source in one area and starts to invade, we discover Alexandria and Solution 9 and the soul regulators that keep the citizens trapped outside of the Lifestream in a dystopian cyberpunk city where souls are commodities and the whole place is ran by a rogue AI bent on dominated every Shard to steal its aether to maintain her malfunctioning prime directive: protect her citizens (including the memories of all the dead ones) at all costs. I would love to read that story! It sounds amazing! Too bad instead we got:

- Zero familiarity of the sci-fi and cyberpunk genre it's trying to pull ideas from
- A bland and empty cityscape with nothing to see or do
- No consequence to the fucked up soul regulator system, which is just allowed to perpetuate without consequence despite how horrid it is
- No examination or exploration of how memory and soul tampering would severely warp a person, which had been established canon before now (the raids do, thankfully, but it should have also been explored in the MSQ)
- Sphene is not even remotely subtle nor likable in her villain plans and motivation, but we are forced by the plot and Wuk Lamat to try and understand and befriend her
- A horrible final zone that can't decide if the Endless are real people or not and makes us turn the zone ugly and bland and takes a dump all over FFIX
- Final battle interrupted so that Wuk Lamat can save the day with the Power of Friendship between her and Sphene, a friendship that makes no sense and that we never saw developed.

I would have probably liked Dawntrail just fine...if it had been written by any other writing team than the one we had.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

If you see yourself as one who skipped or ignored the story, then probably yes, but i don't say that. If you pay attantion to the story then you'll probably be surpised that its actually good and not as bad as some say.

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I didn't skip, in fact, I'm seeing the story for a second time by watching a friend play through it. Ran it myself in japanese, and I'm watching him play in english.

To summarize, Poochie doesn't grow at all because she's never shown to be wrong about absolutely anything. Everyone aside from Poochie seems written to be dumber than her and treat her like she's the best thing since sliced bread. Things kind of pick up once you hit Heritage Found but sadly, you still aren't free of Poochie and her desire of "meeting the people!". Krile's story was sidelined when her bit is one of the most interesting parts. Erenville had good development and when it came the time for that to peak, Poochie had to get in the way.

And then...

Speeeeeen, listen to meee!

So no, I wished I had skipped it, but I haven't.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

If you see yourself as one who skipped or ignored the story, then probably yes, but i don't say that. If you pay attantion to the story then you'll probably be surpised that its actually good and not as bad as some say.

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I'd have a much higher opinion of dawntrail if I skipped the cutscenes lmao

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

If you see yourself as one who skipped or ignored the story, then probably yes, but i don't say that. If you pay attantion to the story then you'll probably be surpised that its actually good and not as bad as some say.

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Chiming in with the others here. I marathoned the MSQ because I was so excited to see what this new arc with Krile, Erenville, and Wuk Lamat in a beautiful land full of adventure would bring with it.

I came away after watching every cutscene and reading every optional piece of dialogue EXTREMELY disappointed. I'm not talking sad. I mean I genuinely went to bed a bit depressed.

"That was Dawntrail. That was it. This isn't a dream. It really was that bad. Horrid childish writing. Boring repetitive fetch quests. It was bad and that's that. Credits rolled. I have to live with the fact that I hate the new FF expansion."

I have cancer. One of main things that was helping me keep my head up through treatment was the fact that because I'm not currently working I'd have all the time I needed to soak up the new FF expansion and enjoy my time off. I hate to sound so incredibly dramatic, but the fact that I had to push myself to even finish the expansion is so heartbreaking for me. I didn't come in with high expectations, I just wanted something enjoyable. I got some of the most infantilized writing and tedious series of fetch quests I have ever seen in a video game.

I hate Dawntrail. If you personally enjoyed it, I'm happy for you, but I think it is objectively absolute garbage from a writing perspective and has definitely hurt my trust in the game/devs. I will probably not be buying the next expansion on release moving forward, and I will not be renewing my sub until all the patch quests are out.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

Truth be told, the vast majority in those threads got annoyed and skipped some cutscenes, and even those who didn't were so annoyed at the story that they couldn't even tell the basic theme of the narrative.
As OP said, it is not a great story, but all the people freaking out and even trying to say people should read books are being very disingenuous, even more as they praise all other stories XIV had as the pinnacle of gaming writing while it's just a little bit above of what was given to us in Dawntrail.

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I'm sorry, but I don't suffer and force myself to not skip the cutscenes just to be told "you skip cutscene and don't know basic theme of narrative".

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Review scores from users are relatively worthless here, since they tend to come from a very specific portion of the gaming population (which both *isn't* the general FFXIV population and *isn't* the kind likely to find stories about positivity and growth their thing). Critics who reviewed both DT and ARR back in the day tend to put them very close to each other, which makes sense to me given their similar nature coupled with DT having sharpened things since the ARR days but following ShB and EW vs. following 1.0.

The thing you're responding to is also an opinion, so the concept of one thing being "better" than another literally can't be "accurate" or "inaccurate."



This is an opinion. What is the obsession with the negative echo chamber around here trying to tell people their opinions are wrong?

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So "muh majority opinion is the objectively right" is only valid until they go against your narrative, isn't it?

Come now, you're famous for telling people their opinion are wrong because they're "minority" :p

Eww what an awful take

This story is even worse than ARR its funny how the writers managed to do it. At least ARR has a hook from the beginning with the Garlean empire and whatnot

DT's hook is to force players to help this dumb shitty cat who is not suitable to rule become queen. Why we help her? Cos she likes Peas n Hahpinezz™ and she is a blackhole Sue that mindcontrolled us

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You got it twisted. It's not the fact that people have a different opinion or not. That's fine, it's all subjective.

It's that the forums as a whole are trying to do a 180 after hating SB / Lyse for literal years and now that the DT hate train is the popular convo, with the exact complaints, people are trying to suddenly make it seem like SB was this fantastic story for MSQ, and Lyse is a fantastic well built character.

That is not only disingenuous, it's alright BS. I will continue to call that out nonstop. If you want to hate DT that's fine, but we not about to try and position SB MSQ / Lyse as great, when both were rough at best and the only things most people remember about the SB MSQ or Lyse as a character, was that both got better during the post patch cycle and the Yotsuyu/ Tsuyu storyline.

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You do know that most people can re-evaluate our opinion as we gain more information right? It's not like we're born omnipotence, knowing everything from A to Z, and what the true universal best and worst are.

For example:

- let imagine a person from a well-off family and has been eating good all their life. Home-made food, ironchef restaurant and all that.

- one day, their friend gave them a cheap frozen $2 burger reheat in the microwave. They took one bite and thought "this is actually food? How can anyone eat this?!?" I personally know a few people like that irl.

- Then on a faithful vacation, they get stuck in a warzone with no way out. They spent a week trying to survive on rain water, moldy bread and emergency ration. Then they get rescued, the rescuer handed them a frozen burger fresh off the microwave. They devour it while thinking "this is the BEST thing I've ever eaten!!".

Lyse is like the frozen burger and WL is that moldy bread. When we had Lyse, we thought she was the worst, our evaluation was based on the assumption no one can ever be worse. Then Wuk Lamat happens, so Lyse is now elevated as no longer be the worst. What you call 180 disingenuous BS, is actually simply people re-evaluating their opinion upon gaining a new perspective. You know ... just a human thing to do? Usually after losing something or seeing something worse, it gives us new appreciation of what we had before.

And let's just hope moldy bread is the lowest FF14 gonna go. I swear if FF14 somehow introduce a character that even worse than WL ... then what? It'll be like stuck out in the desert and have to eat live scorpion and chewing on cactus?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

I'm sorry, but I don't suffer and force myself to not skip the cutscenes just to be told "you skip cutscene and don't know basic theme of narrative".

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Cool. Then, what is it?

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

Cool. Then, what is it?

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? What's what?

I actually rank DT's story below SB and ARR as the worst thing they've ever produced. Perhaps 1.0's writing ranked below DT, but I don't know because I didn't play it.

But keep in mind, taste is subjective. It's impossible to make something everyone likes, but if you open a restaurant and 90% of the people are ranging from spitting out your food to calling it 'mid', you have an issue. The 10% of people who absolutely love it are not going to be able to keep you in business.

A lot of people didn't like DT's story and that's a problem. And it's not a vocal minority like it was in EW. This is a vocal majority. People who would have happily eaten almost anything placed in front of them are coming to the forums to complain. And fortunately they are giving their reasons they didn't like it.

Some people didn't like Wuk Lamat, some people liked her but felt she overstayed her welcome, I personally am fine with her but I was wondering why I was attempting to make the comic relief leader of a country. Do I hate these people? Before we got there people insisted I had to make her the leader of the country cause her brother likes war. Well, they have no boats, even if the warmonger ends up in charge, he can't get anywhere to attack. And she has a brother who also likes peace and can be trusted to carry his own bags without dropping them. Why aren't we trying to make that guy the ruler?

The game never addressed what my motivation would be, it just kept asking if I was sure while only giving me yes answers. It's very odd to give the protagonist a primary mission the player is unlikely to want to do. Like in ARR we were helping people and stopping primals. Yeah, I'm cool with helping people and saving lives. In HW we were attempting to stop the Dragonsong War, another worthy cause. In SB we were attempting to free two enslaves societies. Definitely anti-slavery. In ShB we're attempting to save the Source and the First. Yep, I'm definitely pro-planet. And in EW we're saving the universe. Can't do much without a universe, gotta save it, no questions asked. But in DT we spend half the story doing something I don't believe any sane person would do. This woman can't be trusted to find her way to a village that is five feet away that she can see. Why would we be attempting to make her ruler of a KFC let alone a country? And that's one issue of many in DT that I hope they never repeat again or the next expansion might have us installing Hildibrand as the sovereign ruler of Ishgard.

There's so many missed opportunities in DT to provide character growth for a plethora of characters.

Take during the release of Valigarmanda, several of the giants got hurt. This felt like an opportunity for the rival Giants to stir up discord, asking for the Dawnservant trials to be denounced since a candidate had freed Vali and for the Giants to rise against them. While it would've put the trial on hold for a little while longer, I think this would've been an opportunity for Wuk to actually try and settle the problems being caused, give her an opportunity to actually deal with people that question the notion of peace and put a challenge to her ideals.

Mamook is also a very poorly written portion of the story. If you told me the Mamool Ja that had stayed still hadn't let go of conquest or had a feeling of pride in living there, their motives would've made sense but they go with eugenics because they want to leave the forest. NO ONE IS HOLDING THEM THERE!!!! They were free to leave and several did leave for Tuliyollal so why this obsession to birth blessed siblings? It's very poorly written in general. Bakool Ja Ja especially I felt was rushed into his redemption without consequence for his actions ever manifesting. Compare his actions to that of Fordola from SB. She isn't forgiven for all the crap she does midway thru the 4.0 story. We beat her and she's imprisoned, waiting for the resistance to decide her fate. The people denounce her, and even when she does save them, they thank her for it but don't forgive her immediately either. That felt realistic in its depiction. Bakool Ja Ja got none of that and it just felt like another wasted opportunity.

I also have many problems with how Krile and Erenville got shafted in their arcs. Krile wanted to find out the reason her grandfather was asked to investigate the Golden City but instead we're given Krile's origin story that felt straight out of an episode of Stargate, explaining that Krile came from another shard. This culimates into a very awkward 5 minute cutscene with her parents in the final zone and that's it. We don't get any conversation with them really since it all fades to black once the ice is broken, just told to enjoy the history lesson in the volcano about their people and we move on. Erenville felt just as bad since while we got to meet his mother in Heritage Found and got some inkling to her personality and character, Erenville is clearly struggling with the notion his mother is actually dead. Even at the end, it felt like the most hamfisted way to deal with his struggle by declaring he'll live on and do everything his mother is no longer able to do. I wanted to see some more emotion in the moment that just never manifested.

And all this without even discussing the many problems with Wuk Lamat herself. I'm fine with a Shonen Protagonist but I expected that moment in typical Shonen that challenges the character's view and ideals but that never happened. I never felt like Wuk Lamat grew as a character. She became more knowledgeable about her people and that's all fine and dandy but it didn't really shape her in anyway, just filled in some blanks in her knowledge of her people. I'll give her being aware that she alone isn't able to rule Tural and asked Koana to join her as joint Dawnservants but I still never felt she was a good candidate for the position, whereas I felt Koana was the infinitely better candidate, even with his flaws of viewing technological advance above cultures but that made him feel like a real character. He had flaws and grew from them whereas Wuk Lamat isn't really portrayed as having any real flaw. "Oh, I get motion sickness" isn't a flaw, it's not a challenge to overcome for her. It's a character gag at best and not even a funny one. I wish there was more to her that made me want to root for her but there just wasn't.

Finally, there the issue of the stakes of the expansion. If it had been contained to just a normal coup by Zarool Ja without the whole world ending calamity that is Sphene, I probably would've liked it better but no, we couldn't even have that. We had to go and rehash the worst part of EW's 6.X Series and jam it into the last 3-4 levels of the expansion. I get wanting to explore the other shards as part of an interesting story beat but at this point I think we needed a breather from shard travel just for 1 expansion to cleanse the palate a little but nope, here's a psuedo-Ascian to deal with.

For all the flaws of SB, I still genuinely liked parts of it. The siege of Doma Castle is still one of my favorite moments from the 4.0 storyline but with Dawntrail, I struggle to enjoy any part of it for more than 1 or 2 scenes before it just left me numb again. I went in mostly blind to DT after being more or less put off by EW's 6.X story beats but DT was a new low for me.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

Dawntrail is a good Story and it is better than Sormblood. It has parts that are great and parts that are bad. Wuk Lamat has a good development and if you pay attantion you see how she grows. Just read and listen to evreything in the MSQ (She is Part of the Dungeons/Trials) and you understand it.

Why is Dawntrail not a great Story?

Because the part with the succession was to short. It should have lead us to Shaaolani to meet Erenvile's Mother and get Keystones there. the 95 Dungeon should have been 97 dungeon and from there on the Start of the Alexandria part with evreything how it went down. It would have had a bigger impact on the story and for the characters.

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I rate this below ARR. In ARR it was long, it was heavy in some spots, but I was always curious. My curiosity kind of died out by zone 4 in DT. I know for many this was a favorite zone, but I had to mute during this zone. I started skipping scenes in some of the last zone. Essentially, the first part made me realize this was going to play out like an alliance raid where we are just observers. I was only able to tolerate the CT AR story, ShB, and most of EW's AR story. All others I gave a chance and then quickly skipped out of boredom. Either the characters were annoying or the plot dragged - which is the same as DT.

I'm not a fan of StB, but I think it is also better than this if only slightly. The things I disliked about Stormblood was mainly Lyse and her nepo baby attitude through most of it. Then you have Hien who tries to earn the trust of his people. I feel in DT they tried to tell a similar story and ideal, but with only one character. They also made her someone who only had to learn about culture. I don't like terms like "Mary Sue", but making her "correct" and everyone else wrong is not reality. It also makes her unrelatable to anyone with self awareness. In StB I at least felt I could finally relate to Lyse since she learned she wasn't perfect even if she was still a loudmouth with an optimistic attitude. In the last expansion Venat comments that we are "imperfect beings" also, but suddenly we have a character who is perfect except for her fear of heights and sea sickness.

I think there were a lot of things that could have made a bigger impact on the story. Imagine if we find the Mamool Ja cave with the unfortunate results of their "breeding program" on our own. But to do that we would maybe have to open a jar or see what happens with the echo and that may be considered gruesome by some. I got the feeling this entire expansion was written for a much younger audience in mind (like pre-teen) since they did a lot of telling rather than showing. It felt very "safe" even with controversial issues or topics. "Rubber bullets" is another example of this.

I think I agree with the fact that Alexandria came way too soon. I liked when we went to Shaaolani it would be the start of our grand new adventure though, I don't know if I would've liked the rite of succession to go further.

To the people saying DT is worse than ARR, I just can't take you seriously. Maybe you have just forgotten how boring and generic the base game is, or maybe it's some weird trollbait and hateboner for this expansion lol.

I have 8 alts in total. I went through ARR plenty of times. I don't know if it was in this thread or somewhere else that made a comparison between the Titan questline and Dawntrail, but it's fitting. The only time I ever start to groan in my ARR playthroughs, it's when I have to slog through the Titan questline, which constantly sends me from point A to B, having to talk to countless NPCs and do menial tasks. That's Dawntrail for the whole succession trial.

So yes, ARR is better. I always enjoyed creating a new character, stepping foot into one of the big 3 cities and starting fresh as an adventurer. With Dawntrail I am already dreading setting foot on Tuliyollal soil with a second character.

Ehhh I don't know.

The story didn't do it for me.
Poorly written msq, the scions didn't get much development for the story, Krile and Erenvile were done in dirty, Wuk Lamat wasn't a very meaningful character, Zarool Ja and Spene weren't developed much as antagonists, idk where to point out on Bakool Ja ja, in Shaaloani part of the story idk if the accent of the npcs were necessary, the rite of succession was a bit rushed, the gate to the "Golden City" was hidden in graveyard of scarified mamool ja only to find out it was another graveyard filled with holographic people from other and/or current realms that were already dead, and constantly the fact that we didn't get much action during the story only just to be a babysitting soon to be dawn servant. And the ending song credits didn't seem to fit well...
The only thing is my attention getting was the dungeons and the raids, also some of the job skills.
Watched the entire cutscenes while doing the MSQ and I'm gonna say it's not worth the replay to me...

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

I actually rank DT's story below SB and ARR as the worst thing they've ever produced. Perhaps 1.0's writing ranked below DT, but I don't know because I didn't play it. ... questions asked. But in DT we spend half the story doing something I don't believe any sane person would do. This woman can't be trusted to find her way to a village that is five feet away that she can see. Why would we be attempting to make her ruler of a KFC let alone a country? And that's one issue of many in DT that I hope they never repeat again or the next expansion might have us installing Hildibrand as the sovereign ruler of Ishgard.

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I concur with this. I didn't mind Wuk or her VA, but the character itself was oppressively present, all the time, and we are constantly given reasons Wuk shouldn't be a leader. Add to this inconsistent plot elements left unexplained (sweet jesus the Dynamis crutch is doing a lot of lifting), and it was a chore to stay engaged. It was an exercise in futility and insanity that, behold, somehow conveniently drives the plot forward inexplicitly.